Ann Arbor, MI
Dude, JJP slurper or not come on man, JJPOTC was a total disaster
(Topic ID: 246108)
Quoted from Rarehero:It's a total fail for the company, regardless if you like it.
Stern used the theme when it was hot, JJP picked it when no one cared.
Stern had an awesome multi-animated bash toy ship, JJP had 2 features stripped out before shipping.
Stern had Captain Jack Sparrow voices & many other fun pirate characters, JJP has 84 characters featured, but voices for none.
Stern POTC was a best seller, JJP POTC was "cancelled" quicker than any pinball machine ever.
LMAO.
Quoted from Skyemont:LMAO.
Laugh all you want. Fact is it was pulled off the line. A good seller isn't pulled off the line, it stays in production along with the other games.
Stern sold close to 10,000 units from 2006-2009.
JJP sold 1000 in 2019 & was pulled.
Facts are facts.
Quoted from Rarehero:Laugh all you want. Fact is it was pulled off the line. A good seller isn't pulled off the line, it stays in production along with the other games.
Stern sold close to 10,000 units from 2006-2009.
JJP sold 1000 in 2019 & was pulled.
Facts are facts.
Lmao. Stern's Pirates blows compared to JJP's. Facts are Facts.
I think some of these licenses may be more viable on site than I someone's game room. People may not like GNR. That's ok, but if it attracts a player then that's great. People love JJPOTCLE and the theme is not my personal favorite but I understand that others may like it. I also would be shocked if Disney dropped the license anytime soon so the relevance will likely continue for a decent time. We saw a real bump on Game of Thrones pinball for the final series. Something I never thought possible.
The rumors of the upcoming JJP pins make me know that they will be viable past next year. I would bet on it. I am not saying I know everything but Jack has had a connection to the industry longer than I have lived. I'm happy for what he has created and he is passionate about his product too, which I think shows in the end results. I know people like to bash a bunch of different manufacturers on here, I never really care to do that. Sometimes manufacturers do things I don't agree with but in the end I have been treated well by the decisions made on licenses and features from all players in the game. I hope we continue this upward swing. It's a great time for location pinball when there are a ton of hobby operators out here representing these manufacturers so well.
Good luck JJP. I look forward to whatever is next, regardless of theme. 
Quoted from TheLaw:Doesn't mean it wasn't a disaster
Its a great game. A friend has a CE with NO ISSUES!!!
Quoted from Skyemont:Lmao. Stern's Pirates blows compared to JJP's. Facts are Facts.
There are features to each that are awesome. I still love shooting the time lock on Stern POTC. JJP version is amazing too and is over a decade newer than Stern's. Both games have a coolness factor about them. I also do not disagree with the previous poster stating that the license was more relevant in 2006. The actual ride at all Disney parks was update to incorporate characters from the 2006 movie release.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Stern managed to sell what 100 or so primus pins at 8k. Think about that... If you think a Wonka level gnr pin will not do well at 7500.
Finding the first 100 or even 500 buyers at those prices is one thing but trying to find 2000 sales at $7500/8000 is a whole nother thing
Quoted from Skyemont:Lmao. Stern's Pirates blows compared to JJP's. Facts are Facts.
Jesus F'ing...*deep breath* ....this is the world we live in now. People literally don't understand the concept of facts....OOOOOKAAAAY....
Your opinion of game vs. game is NOT factual...it's an opinion, and irrelevant to this topic. Title of this thread: "Will JJP survive past 2020?" Stern pirates was a SALES hit. Sales keep companies in business. JJPOTC was a sales FLOP. Those are FACTS. Statements with EVIDENCE.
Quoted from Rarehero:It's a total fail for the company, regardless if you like it.
Stern used the theme when it was hot, JJP picked it when no one cared.
Stern had an awesome multi-animated bash toy ship, JJP had 2 features stripped out before shipping.
Stern had Captain Jack Sparrow voices & many other fun pirate characters, JJP has 84 characters featured, but voices for none.
Stern POTC was a best seller, JJP POTC was "cancelled" quicker than any pinball machine ever.
you sir are going to burn in hell 
Pure opinion:
JJP POTC is a great game, but after it was announced there were considerable delays before it went into production. Two features for the game were developed then dropped before production. The game was still packed with many features and code. I believe that this was a VERY expensive project due to cost overruns at JJP. I think the per unit profit for the more basic (but still excellent) WONKA is higher, so it made sense to get POTC off the line and WONKA onto the line to increase profits. By making financial decisions like this, you can remain in business beyond 2020. Nothing against Wonka - I have an LE on order!
Quoted from JY64:you sir are going to burn in hell
I'm already on Pinside 
I do not think anyone thinks JJP will be gone by 2020 but will they put out two games in 2019 and 2020
I love you Rare going way, way back to RGP and I overstate things to make a point also but "cancelled" is wrong (the line was simply not re-upped for the next bulk order of parts) and quicker than any machine ever? Really? Lost in Space? Godzilla? C'mon, stay in focus here. Pirates sold its run and the factory has no more to sell. Dialed In! was produced in greater quantity but there are still some around NIB if you want one. Context matters also. Okay, carry on...
Quoted from Pinballomatic:the line was simply not re-upped for the next bulk order of parts)
...because it wouldn't have had enough sales to justify it 
Quoted from Pinballomatic:and quicker than any machine ever? Really? Lost in Space? Godzilla?
OK, put into "out of production" status quicker than any game since JJP came onto the scene.
Quoted from Highclasspinball:I have never run any stern playfields. Whoever thinks he knows better is lying.
Mirco
And your PFs for JJP? The fact that WW is still showing the PF issues POTC was showing is completely mind blowing. Fix your clear issues for crying out loud....
Quoted from Rarehero:...because it wouldn't have had enough sales to justify it
OK, put into "out of production" status quicker than any game since JJP came onto the scene.
See now was that so hard?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I think it's acceptable for a $3K game. Where can I get one?
not many left
My takeaway from all this is that being a pinball manufacturer means you need a crystal ball.
You make your best prediction at demand and buy parts in bulk, far in advance, and hope you got it right.
Underbuy and you have demand unmet.
Overbuy and you have inventory you can't move.
Of those two problems, I'd say underbuying is financially healthier and the better of the two.
After reading all your posts here, I’m coming to some conclusions on the viability of certain pinball companies:
1. Stern has the model down to a fine science on how to stay relevant and successful in a very hard business, i.e., pinball manufacturing.
2. Spooky has their own unique business model and stays in business based on how they’ve set that up. Non refundable pre-sold table orders.
3. CGC has their own business model that works for them, mainly because they are just making repeats of old games everyone loves.
4. American Pinball has an interesting business model that remains to be seen.
5. JJP is a somewhat of a total mess. They pick outdated or not relevant themes or themes already been done many many years ago by others. The real person running the company appears to be Pat. His years of experience seems to have the real owners ears, meaning the investor family that has taken over. They don’t know pinball, but trust what Pat tells them. Pat is old school, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but can hurt a company in 2019 and may cause them to be struggling to survive in 2020, which is the theme of this thread.
JJP has made one poor decision after another and has left their core reason of existence: being a high end boutique company for collectors. Wonka comparatively a stripped down table with no special mechs, at high pricing, is evidence of leaving that core reason of being in business. With rumored GNR on the horizon, once again a theme already done in the long ago past, might really hurt the company. Rumored Toy Story with little to no movie assets, based on JJP history, will be another potential loser and potentially not a strong pinball theme (although if done like WOZ many mechs, I might buy it even if assets are weak, if Pat does the layout, because it will play much better than WOZ).
Quoted from jimwe5t:After reading all your posts here, I’m coming to some conclusions on the viability of certain pinball companies:
1. Stern has the model down to a fine science on how to stay relevant and successful in a very hard business, i.e., pinball manufacturing.
2. Spooky has their own unique business model and stays in business based on how they’ve set that up. Non refundable pre-sold table orders.
3. CGC has their own business model that works for them, mainly because they are just making repeats of old games everyone loves.
4. American Pinball has an interesting business model that remains to be seen.
5. JJP is a somewhat of a total mess. They pick outdated or not relevant themes or themes already been done many many years ago by others. The real person running the company appears to be Pat. His years of experience seems to have the real owners ears, meaning the investor family that has taken over. They don’t know pinball, but trust what Pat tells them. Pat is old school, which is not a bad thing necessarily, but can hurt a company in 2019 and may cause them to be struggling to survive in 2020, which is the theme of this thread.
JJP has made one poor decision after another and has left their core reason of existence: being a high end boutique company for collectors. Wonka comparatively a stripped down table with no special mechs, at high pricing, is evidence of leaving that core reason of being in business. With rumored GNR on the horizon, once again a theme already done in the long ago past, might really hurt the company. Rumored Toy Story with little to no movie assets, based on JJP history, will be another potential loser and potentially not a strong pinball theme (although if done like WOZ many mechs, I might buy it even if assets are weak, if Pat does the layout, because it will play much better than WOZ).
Sorry but no one out of three games Stern puts out is a fail there are big enough to just move on. JJP big issue has always been price many of his rich customers may not understand but the number of people at JJP prices is just too small. JJP brings there price range to $6500/$8500 %50 jump in sales they will always struggle in the $9500/$12500 no matter how good the game
Quoted from DerGoetz:Eric designed JJP GNR¿?
LE at minimum, possibly CE, done deal.
It’s doubtful that JJP will ever come close to Potc again or Woz for that matter despite what Jack said from day one
Going the way of Stern. Strip it out and make $$$
It’s just business
“Woz will be just the beginning and it only gets better from here”
Jack G, 2013
Quoted from Skyemont:Trying to stay on topic now. YES, JJP will be around in 2020. Done!
You’ve got to be on JJP payroll...or the biggest fan of JJP there is. Lol
I think the focus of JJP should be on selling pins, if they can sell any more DI, WoZ, TH, PotC they shouldn't let those sales rot on the vine (maybe to buy Stern, CGC, Spooky pins). They need to fill the pipeline so that if I decide to buy a $9500 PotC or DI or Woz I will be able to. Not to force me to like Wonka or whatever is next. They have such a small portfolio they should easily be able to fill the pipeline, top off the dealers supply.
I dealer should be collecting my money rather than saying "wish I could but we don't have any..."
The bottom line is the dealer should be selling not turning business away especially when it's potentially $10K sale for one machine.
Quoted from jimwe5t:You’ve got to be on JJP payroll...or the biggest fan of JJP there is. Lol
Lol, you nailed it. /sarcasm
Quoted from jimwe5t:You’ve got to be on JJP payroll...or the biggest fan of JJP there is. Lol
No payroll. Just a fan of great pinball machines. 
Of all the available JJP games the only one I’d want is Dialed In. I’ll never understand the hate for this game
Quoted from Aphex:Of all the available JJP games the only one I’d want is Dialed In. I’ll never understand the hate for this game
No reason to hate the game. It’s loaded with lots of cool mechs and plays rather well. Maybe JJPs pinnacle, along with POTC. It is just plain and simply linear, so becomes rinse repeat over and over. Many find that monotonous after owning it a while. Not much more than only one way to approach the game, makes it boring. The animations on the phone are quite fun, leading to each mode, although.
If they keep putting out games where the playfield shells out, how many people are going to continue spending $8500 to $10k+?
If anything will put JJP out of business that sure as hell will do it. You cant expect someone who buys a new Ferrari to just accept that the paint flakes ya know?
Quoted from CLEllison:If they keep putting out games where the playfield shells out, how many people are going to continue spending $8500 to $10k+?
If anything will put JJP out of business that sure as hell will do it. You cant expect someone who buys a new Ferrari to just accept that the paint flakes ya know?
Well.......
Quoted from CLEllison:If they keep putting out games where the playfield shells out, how many people are going to continue spending $8500 to $10k+?
If anything will put JJP out of business that sure as hell will do it. You cant expect someone who buys a new Ferrari to just accept that the paint flakes ya know?
That is a major issue that no one in their right mind would buy into, knowing that will happen. Just look at all the POTC playfield issues.
Melbourne
Do you all want to wait 2 more years for Wonka and the next JJP Title?
Stop POTC and build Wonka and the next game this year as well
Move on and keep building more Titles, you can always do what Stern do and make Vault Editions
Quoted from jimwe5t:That is a major issue that no one in their right mind would buy into, knowing that will happen. Just look at all the POTC playfield issues.
Didn't IMLE at 9k have major issues? I know this to be true. A friend went thru it. 
Quoted from rai:The bottom line is the dealer should be selling not turning business away especially when it's potentially $10K sale for one machine.
First off JJP customers seem to have an entitled attitude. As for making a second run if that run is for 500 games it is viable if it is for 50 games the cost do not line up even at $10,000
Quoted from CLEllison:If they keep putting out games where the playfield shells out, how many people are going to continue spending $8500 to $10k+?
If anything will put JJP out of business that sure as hell will do it. You cant expect someone who buys a new Ferrari to just accept that the paint flakes ya know?
Have you ever spent time on high-end car enthusiast forums? People fret and whine about paint chips. No different.
Quoted from zaphX:Have you ever spent time on high-end car enthusiast forums? People fret and whine about paint chips. No different.
They mirror each other for sure. On here its Stern vs JJP, but on places like the Corvette forum it's my vette rules and yours is shit. Its amazing how there can be such petty divisions over nonsense. Full disclosure, I still think B/W pins rule!!!! 
I think Wonka will sell very well as more get to experience the game and code develops. Reliability more than themes have held back sales. The YBR and Wonka releases seem to me they are focused on reduced complexity and fewer service issues.
2,000 + Wonka’s I think is realistic, and with a tighter and more frequent release schedule it could bode well for JJP.
Pinball is growing everyday. You call em delays, jack calls it padding the market. JJP has already made it to 2020.
Quoted from zaphX:Have you ever spent time on high-end car enthusiast forums? People fret and whine about paint chips. No different.
Please send me the link of high end car enthusiasts complaining about buying a brand new car with paint bubbling/chipping and the manufacturer not standing behind their product and fixing the bad paint/clear job. Just doesn’t happen. Man I wish I could just lie to myself. Life would be so much smoother.....
Quoted from Skyemont:Didn't IMLE at 9k have major issues? I know this to be true. A friend went thru it.
Depends if you look at it from a pinball collector's eye or a JJP hugger. I generally dislike Stern's quality and strategy of stripping everything down to save every last nickel, but IMDNLE did not have "major issues." I had to adjust some switches in the sarcophagus mech, one of the captive ball switches and adjust my launcher to make the loop properly. My DILE has had 4 phone replacements and one trap door replacement, both of which I'd consider "major." I've also had to straighten a brutally crooked LED board. The employee was a full cm off the predrills, and the inserts were pretty much dark. Customer service has been TOP NOTCH though.
I love JJP and hope they keep going, but I'm going to call a spade a spade. They have their issues, just like Stern does. Sometimes they are better, sometimes they are worse. I personally think JJP's theme choices and family-friendly limitations are going to hurt them and possibly kill the business. Many pinheads that can buy games grew up in arcades. Arcades were where skids, dopers and smokers hung out, at least the ones I hung around. That's why skulls and tits sell so well. I like metal. I like demons and devils. I like skulls. I like tits, even though I see these as non-PC these days.
The best case scenario I can see is that they start putting out unique, original themes like companies did in the 80's and stop with the fear of bad words like "killer." Killer App, Pat's original title for DI, would have increased sales on DI by 10% IMHO. Skip paying for worn-out themes to save your customers some cash. If deeproot, who I believe is working on original themes (smart), and others start cranking out good titles, JJP will be the first to go, and it will be a sad day for pinball.
Quoted from Extraballz:Please send me the link of high end car enthusiasts complaining about buying a brand new car with paint bubbling/chipping and the manufacturer not standing behind their product and fixing the bad paint/clear job. Just doesn’t happen. Man I wish I could just lie to myself. Life would be so much smoother.....
That is exactly right. I'm tired of people LITERALLY making excuses as to why this is somehow acceptable instead of holding people accountable. If people want to throw their hard earned money at a game that (at this point) almost assuredly going to have a crap clear coat job more power to you but not this guy and very likely the guy I quoted.
Quoted from Extraballz:Please send me the link of high end car enthusiasts complaining about buying a brand new car with paint bubbling/chipping and the manufacturer not standing behind their product and fixing the bad paint/clear job. Just doesn’t happen. Man I wish I could just lie to myself. Life would be so much smoother.....
Quoted from TheLaw:usually I think he just makes the shit up so let's call it progress?
You don't know anything you might be one of the dumbest people on pinside. You shouldn't tell people they make up stuff, when you don't have any evidence. You talk about making up crap, on another thread you told everyone I was trying to sell a T2 game for $5000, clearly you either can't read, or lied, or in your words make stuff up.
No one should accuse other people of making stuff up unless they have PROOF and typically the law, is wrong as usual.
Quoted from TheLaw:Dude, JJP slurper or not come on man, JJPOTC was a total disaster
Clearly you're a Stern fanboy, a fake account created by Stern, or on the Stern payroll. Which one are you because it has to be one of the three?
So let me address you're really DUMB comment. JJPOTC is a total disaster... okay lets address that.
1) The game sold 1000 copies. That is about 9 to 10 million in total revenue. Hardly a total disaster.
2) The games are now selling used for MORE than they cost brand new. Hardly a total disaster when someone can sell for more than they can buy.
3) Currently the game ranks as one of the 10 best pinball games of all time. Hardly a total disaster.
4) Even POTC hater Kanda finally owned up and bought one. I wonder why? Maybe he finally realized the game is the GOAT!
5) The best mods ever made for any game in pinball history was created for POTC. No one will argue that. Point is the game was so awesome it lent itself to tons of incredible mods.
6) The game is totally unique, all original toys, never before attempted fx, and unlike Stern who has recently re-used the exact same playfields, the game was designed from scratch.
7) JJP still has the license and can make more if they so choose. With that being said if they choose to their will be a line around the block to buy them. If they announced they're selling 500 more it would be sold it within 48 hours.
Total disaster? POTC has sold more units and created more revenue than Alice Cooper, Houdini, Octoberfest, and TNA COMBINED. Hardly a total disaster.
Let me hear your rebuttal oh you can't ... okay I'll accept your apology.
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