This thread is quite silly. The fan boys are going to say yes and the non fan types will say no.

Regardless of shipping systems improving, it always boils down to dollars and cents. JJP makes some okay games, with code depth. The real problem is always how much is charged for that offering?

At nearly $10k for what is essentially a Stern Premium, no company can last long, no matter what they do, unless every offering is near what the original WOZ offering was, with a lot of bells and whistles. But WOZ now costs a whopping $11,500.00 with no mechanical monkey, etc., which originally cost only a few years ago, $6,500, with lots more on the playfield.

Wonka has been severely scaled back to have way less mechanical issues. It is obvious what is happening. The price has not been scaled back to match the BOM. High pricing will effectually diminish JJPS’s efforts for sure. Only fanboys, will pay those kind of prices. Plus the chipping/clear coat issues with JJP play fields, will cause great downward pressure on the company. Who wants to buy into those problems?

Jimwe5t that’s some funny shit,whatever drugs you doing double it and you might make sense

In in very unlikely event JJP goes away all of us CGC owners will still need you!

I really wouldn't be surprised if someone at Stern is behind this thread. They have done some pretty immature things in the last year or two. Remember Steve crashing someones seminar?

A Stern Premium? You're kidding, right? I have both and there is no comparison.

I have no idea what will happen in 2020, but after playing Wonka for the first time today I can guarantee that the rest of their 2019 will be very busy. I went from mild interest in the game, mostly due to theme, to full on Lawlor fan boy in under 20 games. It took me way longer to warm up to Dialed In.

I wouldn't be surprised if this hobby only has another 10 viable years left for all pinball manufacturers.

adamsebas is just upset he has never owned or been able to afford a New Game

After Toy Story, they will survive to infinity and beyond.

Yes.

Any thoughts on the other manufacturers?

3 pages over 100 posts where is the OP

Eating popcorn

Playing his 2 Whirlwind pins

Probably should have just ended your post right there, would have saved you a couple hundred down votes.

I'll toss my two cents in here. JJP has had some great licenses.....WoZ, Hobbit, Pirates and now Willy Wonka. IMO as far as fun factor on those 4 pins....Hobbit IMO plays fast, fun and it's the most enjoyable of all their pins......ironically it probably has the least deep code or playfield. Wizard of Oz just isnt good....its visually beautiful but it plays like a clunker. Even the new YBR edition has the same issues 5 years later than the original WoZ. Pirates will most likely end up being their most sought after machine because they just didn't make alot. As for Wonka they might sell a ton but from my experience at Pintastic I am thankful i didn't pre-order one. It's very early and could improve but as the ball travels the playfield it is very hidden and that IMO takes away from the overall enjoyment of the game......seeing the balls all over the playfield during Multiball. I know companies are trying different things but I want to see more of the pinball playfield and the gameplay needs to be more visible while you are playing the game.

Looking forward to next weeks topics.

"Are JJP's fun"?

"Are JJP's worth it"?

"Should I buy a JJP"?

Forget 2020 right now with American, CGC, JJP, Stern and Spooky can they all survive and if not who will die off if Deeproot makes a good machine

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/which-jjp-is-the-most-fun

Fun has been done

Don’t forget “Why are Sterns better than JJP”?

I think if JJP would make a pro version to compete with Stern pros there would be a lot more people buying JJP games. I love their games but just too expensive for me.

How can anyone refer to Willy Wonka as being a bad theme? It's one of the most iconic movies of all time, that children and adults to this day still watch regularly and love.

Sorry had to fix that. But I think other than Hobbit JJP has several very nice pins out. Looking forward to playing POTC

I have nothing of value to add to this thread

I respect this statement. For those who say JJP pins suck are the ones im confused about.

I was playing DI at Modern Pinball on Friday and let me just say that if JJP goes down it's a huge loss for the hobby. I've only played WoZ and DI but both of those feel on a while different level than anything modern being offered by Stern. And that's not a diss on Stern at all, I love their machines too.

I think if JJP offered a "pro" it would compromise them too much. IMO, there should never be two versions of the same machine with gameplay differences and I like that JJP believes the same. The design, layouts, code, lighting is all on an entirely different plane than anything else being made today. Losing JJP would be like losing 80s/90s Bally/Williams all over again.

Great write up! I agree totally. If it was not for JJP, I would still be hunting for Bally/Willams games to add to my collection.

WOZ and DI do feel like they have more bells and whistles than Sterns, higher BOM etc.

And yet Sterns just seem like more fun to play.

I think one of the reasons is JJP's infatuation with low scoring games.

Fine for WOZ but not the others.

It's basic psychology that players, especially new players feel better with high scores in the millions, billions etc.

Playing DI and scoring 400000 points just isn't exciting.

And I love low scoring em's so not against low scoring games but was hoping JJP would move away from low scores.

No point having a USP if it doesn't reward the player the best way you possibly can!

There is no rationale to saying any games suck. Someone like Pat Lawlor does incredible things. I may like some of his creations better than others but he is a devoted designer and I respect his vision.

I don't mind low scoring. Scoring inflation is out of control. You can just mulitply your score by 1,000,000 if it really bothers you that much lol. In fact, maybe that should be a setting for those who play pinball to satisfy their lizard brain.

Pirates will most likely be their most sought after game because it's an amazingly great game. Amazing layout, rules, technology, sound and video integration.

Woz was a great first effort with a great layout and challenging rules, much better than Hobbit which had a dull layout and rules that felt repetitive. Woz suffers from being a wide body - just doesn't flow well. Still better than TH.

DI was a step forward with improved rules and flow. Games weakness are bad voice callouts and theme.

With POTC, JJP finally brought it all together to perfection, delivering on the original promise of Woz. Deep, intricate, challenging and fun. Most flowy widebody I've ever played.

Can't comment on Wonka as I haven't played it, but it's gonna be hard to top what they accomplished with Pirates. It's an exceptional game.

Played both POTC and Wonka today - and have owned WOZ, DI and still own Hobbit. Neither POTC nor Wonka was interesting to me, theme-wise. I barely was interested when either were announced. But then I PLAYED them. POTC is packed, and multiple dimensions deep, and FUN. Wonka was AMAZING! I liked POTC better but Wonka has a huge amount of
Fun shots, the play field looked great, 2 easy to hit fun ramps... great design by Lawlor..

I’m still going to get POTC but I have really enjoyed all the JJP games - they are fun to play, and isn’t that the point; not the theme?

I will first say that I wish all pinball companies well. In this hobby we love, I say the more the merrier.
I truly enjoy all pinball machines. There are certainly some I like more than others, but any pinball is a good pinball for me.
I think it really all comes down to economics: quality vs. price.
JJP has very high quality, but also higher end prices...which simply prices out some collectors, unfortunately. I feel that the quality, toys, and gameplay will keep collectors buying. As has been previously mentioned, a "pro" version might be a nice addition in the future, however.

Funny you should say that, as you actually make my point!

The Lizard & Emotional brain contain our reward centers, and dictate many of our behaviors, albeit unconsciously.

That's why especially on location, higher scoring games are probably higher earners.

It's one of the main changes in Stern code over since around AC/DC.

The ability to really blow up a game from multiple points in the game.

The song jackpot in AC/DC was probably a huge factor in it's success.

This has got to be the 2019 Biggest Bullshit Post of the year?

You don't even own a JJP Game, and sounds like none of your friends do either, Go to Pinball Paradise or Golden Fleece Hotel as you are in Melbourne.

DI and POTC have sold more than WOZ in Australia and your Gone down the Hill JJP games like Wonka have the first of several containers arriving in a a few weeks.

There are heaps of JJP pins in Collectors Hands.

AC/DC is a very well designed game. I would attribute its success mostly to that. The bell is awesome to hit, no matter if it scores a million or a hundred points. The canon, the ramps, the lower PF; the canon TO the bell. It has a lot going for it beyond point inflation.

But I know that deep down what you are saying is right. It just irks me. I have a Star Wars Pro and it just cracks me up that it's harder to not get at least 10 million points than it is to get it. That's one hell of a floor! With even a crap game by a crap player you can easily hit 50-100 million.

I have to say I agree a little bit - both Houdini (which I love) and the JJP games score waaaay low. I know from AP’s perspective it is to bring things back to where pinball scoring used to be - which I get. But there does seem to be a nice sweet spot with 90s B/W games where 100 million is a pretty good game, and you have to really crank it to get 300+

Wide body games have been a huge problem for JJP. They just don’t flow well. The ball meanders and has more stop and go, instead of the fast sought after flow action. That is why Pat won’t make a wide body and all his offerings are standard. It’s like trying to change a tennis court to a larger size. The game would suffer greatly, just like wide body pinball does. It has been determined almost a century ago, the table size and its not wide body.

Wonka has better flow than all other JJP tables, but the ball gets lost and that really detracts from the fun factor. Same issue with the ball on the left side of DI. Where is it? It gets lost, so the game play is just not that fun. You only hear the trap door opening, but don’t see the ball at all go into the hole. It is very unsatisfying.

Wonka also suffers on the level of no real innovation found on the playfield. It feels and looks stripped down. This will surely hurt sales in the long run. High prices need to have high value. There just isn’t high value found on Wonka. Movie theme integration is severely lacking. The music is at best elevator music. The machine could have been soooooo much better if David Thiel was still at JJP. The narrator is just plain annoying. This game is going to be a very tough sell at nearly $10,000.00 here in the USA. I’ve looked up the crazy pricing of this game in other parts of the world and it’s insane. Big time losses are going to occur when anyone that has bought Wonka tries to on sell it to the next person. So sad, it could have been so much more at a reasonable price. JJP has big pricing issues: out of all the pinball manufacturers and they don’t see it, or maybe they do, but unwilling and think people are dumb enough to keep buying into their high pricing scheme. The person that started this thread might be right.

One q to you? What games do you have in your collection?

No wide body games is the short answer. I do appreciate there are some that like wide body games. POTC is the only wide body game that I personally like the game play of and is a good game code wise. The 3 rings and opening treasure chest being pulled is what destroyed that sale for me. Those 2 important features could have been done without issues so many ways.

Do you own any JJP games or have you ever?

JJP will be here for a LONG time.

I predict different ownership sooner than later.

Jack and crew of course stay.

The op makes some since; as I don't think they are going to do well... maybe barely scrape by until the get their manufacturing lines firing on all cylinders. It take way to long for them to fill orders. If you can't deliver within a month; it an't worth it.
At least if I buy a stern at release; the game is on the way in short order. This isn't the case with JJP

I agree with the original assertion here - best case is to announce and be able to ship NOW while the demand is hot.

However, we gotta give JJP some credit here for improving. Wonka did land within their speculated timeframe of "by the 4th of July."

Have you ever owned a JJP?

What are you even talking about?
Twilight Zone, Indiana Jones, Demolition Man, Guns N Roses, Judge Dredd are all Wide Body pins.
If they determined a century ago that wide body pins suck, I guess they forgot that in the 90s when they made those.

Speak for yourself! I have a small lineup and the themes didn't speak to me until POTC. However, it was always clear that JJP is going for a higher-end experience. They nailed it with POTC! Since I love all the modes, I guess I'm not in the real world.

Don't forget about Road Show...designed by none other than Pat Lawlor himself.