You may actually be on to a contributing factor and that is the rush for all of these mfg’s to get them out quick as possible to move on to the next project.

The rush doesn’t allow them to cure fully and then they torque the shit out of everything with power tools instead of by hand because it’s quicker.

Pretty sure it's a result of changes to what chemicals can be used in the process. The list of acceptable items has been getting shorter for the last 10 years. Many of them are outlawed in much of the world now. There's a new learning curve and we're the guinea pigs.

lol pic's or it did not happen

"Clearcoat job was fine (nice, actually). They just didn't let it cure long enough. It was still too soft on the layers underneath when they started bolting stuff to it."

Both these statements are by you how are they both accurate

Wake me when you go to another thread.

Because there are multiple ways to cure clear? You can accelerate the process chemically or let just time do it. You know this right? They can both be true for different processes by different manufacturers. It can also be true for the SAME manufacturer if they didn't let the low VOC chemicals cure long enough. These are not mutually exclusive statements.

I didn't have a lot of pics handy, but here's the guts of a Theatre of Magic I did laying in the bottom of the cabinet, where they stayed while the playfield was out being repaired and cleared. Put it back together over a year later.

I've also included some of the points that were repaired.
IMG_0098 (resized).JPGbackoftrunk (resized).jpgballexit (resized).jpgballlaunch (resized).jpgbehindtarget (resized).jpgfrontoftrunk (resized).jpg

Here's a pic as it was coming back together - without a rotisserie:
overall (resized).jpg

Well I hope whatever is actually going on comes out into the open. I know of JJP ,Stern and Spooky pinball having this clear issue but have not heard of a clear issue with any CGC or American titles. Not including the early MM done by Stern for CGC. Seems like CGC might have the best overall quality of any pin manufacturer right now from what I have been hearing. However remakes only appeal to certain folks. Wonka seems to show no one is currently fixing the clearcoat problem. Too bad.

Spooky-made TNA has the bunching. Don't know on what scale.

CGC hasn't had bunching to my knowledge, just chipping and cracking on the original MMr run, but it seemed to be pretty limited.

There are plenty of people in pinball that do clear really well and don't have these issues. I wish JJP would hire one of them as a outside consultant to figure this out and get the issue solved. It's not an unknowable/unsolvable.

make life easy on your self https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-quick-and-dirty-rotisserie-guide

Wish I had your talent.
Damn.

Meh. I've done it so many times without, no need to start now. I can do most 90's pins eyes closed. Star Trek TNG is my only nightmare. Never want to do that one again.

I think it's more a matter of experience, which you acquire by doing. I know EVERYBODY isn't cut out for it, but I think that most pinheads that are determined can learn the skills over time. I actually enjoy the fixing up about equally to the playing. Love the transformation from trash to treasure.

Exactly. I know a guy who had to get an entire playfield swap from Stern. It not just JJP!!!

please stop trying to lump TNA in.

for a few reasons:
1. It was a small number of total TNA pf that had chipping
2. TNA issue appears to be completely different than what was seen on Beatles, Maiden; and those are different than what is seen on POTC
3. TNA was already rectified by game 420 ish so Spooky is the one that seems to have found the root cause, addressed the issue, and from what it seems... even took care of customers.3
4. it is not doing any of us good to generalize things when there are likely different issues going on at the root cause.

TNA root cause in my opinion was a single human muscle freak that was screwing up in production. Not a systemic issue with pf

STERN issue appears sporadic and limited to primarily 1 of their 3? contracted pf makers which is why it comes and goes, some people are impacted and some are not. It appears to be a ink not bonding combined with too quick of production speed that allows bubbling of art and clear at posts.

JJP issue is 100% a mirco issue. It appears he is doing a very poor job of prepping blanks, the direct print machine is over flooding the ink and that layer is not binding properly, so then the clear is chipping. Chipping clear infers plenty of cure before assembly.

I believe the only commonality is that all three issues were exacerbated by star posts causing greater pressure points now-a-days than how they were jeweled and made in the past. The posts are putting more pressure on the pf from ball impact.

And I bet he didn’t have to $550 for it either.

100% same here . I don’t use a rotisserie either; I hang the playfield from the ceiling and transfer from one to the other standing up. Easy to work that way and way easier on the back. Pop bumper nails do have to be done carefully. I just have to remember to predrill holes thoroughly so I’m not forced to put much pressure on the playfield when I screw things in.

Is it possible the clear is being laid on too thick? I don’t know his process, but a series of very thin coats is better than a few thick coats.

Nope. Maiden and Beatles is exactly like what's being seen on jjPotC and Wonka. I know - we've had the issue to a small extent with the Maiden here, and the Beatles I've seen look just like jjPotC and Wonka's bunching.

I believe the true problem is in the ink adherence.

The biggest difference from the "old" days and now is the machines being used to lay down the ink in a single flood of direct print.
I see nothing in the symptoms which indicates anything with the clear, unless the clear is causing a chemical reaction/ more heat and that is causing the ink to weaken.

What I see is lifting/bubbling of the ink layer.
I see this ONLY around holes and at posts (also holes associated with posts obviously)
At holes there is more localized dust during cutting. If this is not prepped properly then those are likely the worst spots for adherence.

I see 2 differences.
1 is chipping. This is when clear is properly cured so it is brittle. Lack of adherence under hard clear = chips
2nd is "bubbling". This is when clear is still soft, which it stays soft for varying duration based on product, prep method before, environmental conditions during, and environmental conditions after. Bubbling happens from poor adherence but clear can still move (since not cured completely) so the ink layer lifts but is held together still by pliable clearcoat. This bubble will eventually cure and crack as it will eventually become brittle.

I dont know the final solution here, but I do know Mirco seems to be having the worse issues out of anyone.
I have good suspicion and reason to believe that Mirco is also one of the 3? pf makers Stern has used (people say nope, but go compare the actual Maiden and Beatles bubbling pfs to known Mirco stock...) recently so there is actually a commonality between the Stern and POTC issues. If it ain't Mirco, then it is someone trying to copy everything he does up to this point.

This is another Mirco product. Absolute junk. The rolling out pooling around the posts was blamed on over tightening and the chipping and ink blow out all happened within 6 months of being routed. This behaviour happened with 2 playfields purchases with 6 months of one another. Also the holes on one playfield was 1/8" off and the rail holes were drilled crooked. Jjp better pull the f-ing plug on using Mirco ir until he fixes his weak ass product. The clear coat is soft ... like you can push a finger nail into it soft. That's NOT how it should be but yet he claims its intentional not to mention he says protectors must be used or the clear will ship. Yes I have email conversations as proof. This guy needs to step up and fix his shit end of story. I appreciate this man reproducing things for this hobby but if the product sucks why even bother?

19016 (resized).jpeg

19235 (resized).jpeg

OMG that looks horrible.

Sadly I agree, wtf happened...
Mirco used to have fantastic pf.

Like in the movie Blame the Robot?

Whysnow the Monk is doing what many do deflect blame toward others so to make JJP look good

I just want someone to man up and have some accountability for it. Really not good for the hobby to have this as widespread as we are seeing. If this continues, it’s going to hurt NIB sales.

re read my post...

or hell, actually read it for the first tome before posting for once.

Whysnow I did read your post the fact is what Monk is doing is an old defense just as when a Yankees fan hears of a player using steroids he points to the Red Sox player who has used steroids. Pointing the finger at others has always been done

OMG. I'm just pointing out that the problem with playfields is widespread. There's nothing false in what's been reported, and I'm not leaving JJP information out. Hell, I was the first one to post a pic showing that Wonka has the same problem. There's no intent to show that other manufacturers have this problem too just in order to "make JJP look good." IF that was my intent, WHY would I put the Wonka pic out there? You're ridiculous.

But I do kind of like that you're calling me The Monk now.

The difference in all of this is the other MFG’s all use multiple clearcoat providers so it isn’t as apparent especially with Stern as they make a boatload more games per year.

Since JJp is only using Mirco it is literally showing up on every recent machine whether people want to admit it or not, there are many who will say it isn’t happening to their machine just because they want to protect whoever.

Nobody is trying to harm any party with this but there does need to be accountability.
I know of two people personally that got replacement pf’s from Stern due to excessive dimpling and ghosted inserts which is far less severe than all of this chipping.
And guess what? They were free replacements.

i picked up my LE in this last run and it did not/does not have any clear coat issues. i posted pics earlier in this thread if you want to search for them. it's not every game. As a precaution, however, I did install star posts and put neoprene washers on. I was at the factory this morning getting my wonka and the POTC they had in the lobby also showed no sign of clear coat issues at the sling posts and they had the stock posts on.

Can only speak from my experience but mine has it and so do the other 5-6 I’ve seen in the wild. Take it for what it’s worth.
Some rarely play their games and let them collect dust, these will obviously fare better.

I play my games.

Do you really expect the game sitting in the lobby to have visible issues? Shit....how would that look for them?

Well, the game was not pristine, it was dirty and had seen some play. They aren't using it as a show piece. I doubt it was hand selected to be in the lobby. the point is not all games have the issues, some do, some don't. I don't think the number of plays is a factor. and 5-6 games you've seen compared to the 1000?? out there is pretty low. Even if it's 50, that's still relatively low, even though it may not be acceptable to those 50.

I haven't opened my wonka yet

I hear ya and I’m not saying it is literally every game but this is spanning across at a minimum of the last three games in the line, potc,ybr and wonka.

If it were really such a low percentage of games as you say, the best thing JJP could offer would be free pf’s. Shit, 50 at their cost of somewhere between $500-$750 is 25-40k.

Is this ideal for them? Absolutely not. It’s damage control though, that is eating the cost of 3-5 nib games sold. If this shit festers too long with no accountability sales will decline more than those few games of eaten cost.

This hesitance on their part leads me to believe it’s a bigger issue than 50 games.

Again, I like JJP and love their machines, just want them to succeed and get these issues corrected.

Good luck with your Wonka, I genuinely hope it’s not having these issues!

I still haven’t picked up one of these games but I plan to after we get back from our trip. I will say that Ron kruzman’s playfield install kit will be a lifesaver in addressing the clear issues.

He sells a kit that has routing bits for drilling out a newly cleared playfield - but what they are also good for is cleaning up broken bits of clear when issues like this arise - and he also sells a special glue which is thin enough to seep into cracks and spaces to seal up any gaps.

The glue is Also super sticky and adheres to the clear, and helps to reattach bits which have broken off. It’s not as good as doing it right the first time, but it’s FAR less work than doing a PF swap, and makes that almost not a necessity to get the game back to fighting condition.

I think your enthusiasm for Ron's kit is going to end up in disappointment. His kit, yes is meant to do exactly as you stated however it was designed to work with properly cured clear and you're not dealing with a properly cured clear coat. I did buy his kit and it's super nice, but I HIGHLY suggest you email him and ask him if itll work on that issue. I'll bet you he says no and has some other choice words of advise about the manufacturer.

Hmm. I was just about to repair a chip today with either super glue or an epoxy. Would this stuff from Ron make any kind of a difference?

Where is the chip? I thought your game was huo and only a few months old? Might be worth getting the extra playfield and shipping it to Chris Hutchins to clear. I’m not seeing it on mine at this point but your comment is concerning.

Well, I just watched the special when lit Wonka stream. They called Jersey Jack and eventually got to talking about pirates. Everyone should watch it as I'll do a poor job of summarizing. The one statement that stuck out to me was Jack saying he would love to make more but it won't be this year.

Having done several repair already with it.. I think I’m good. But you’re right, it will not fix major issues with clear that’s not done curing. For chips and areas where the clear needs to be re-adhered ... works great

Was there a specific batch of pirates that didn’t have issues? What was the last batch that was made? What month?

My POTCLE was in the last batch made. My machine shipped May 14th.

Mine was Made March 18th, no issues.

Any problems with yours? Any wear? Washers installed? Have all other issues been resolved? Wiring rerouted behind targets on upper playfield, Tartuga bracket, etc.

January build, no problems.

Mine has a May build date and the only cosmetic issue is a ripple in the clear around the lower sling posts. From a functional standpoint, zero problems and I have around 400 plays on it.

February 2019 build date.
No issues
No problems

Mine is late November and is very nice and solid.

Great new invention that might fix the star post problem. Man, wish the pin companies would have had these available... washers (resized).jpg

Just joined the club!! Couldn’t be happier with this ridiculous machine. It may never leave.. and not JUST because it’s over 400lbs...