Will JJP make more POTC?

It’s certainly a good solution but still much more impressive as a physical mech. Some people seem to forget how everyone was going absolutely bananas for that mech when it was revealed.

It is very obviously happening. Just a matter of when/ timing.

I predict we see it a few months after the next game. They will release GnR, sell that whole initial bolus and have committed dollars and then do a 'limited' run of POTC. It will provide a good cash infusion and be used to keep the line busy as needed.

I own an LE and I'll never sell it.....I hope they make it again for others to enjoy...even with more made the price isn't going to drop that much if people decide to sell.

Yeah, it will happen for sure.

JJP is really smart with some aspects of marketing and understanding how to work to keep secondary up.
POTC sets a tone of FOMO for future titles which will help w sales (people will say... it could be like POTC and be more encouraged to buy).

Even though I've kept saying that I don't think JJP will make anymore Pirates there's always a part of me that says they will. JJP has made multiple WOZ editions, hell I wouldn't be surprised if a Tin Man LE is next and if they make a 100 year anniversary edition in 2039 lol. That's a good point you said about releasing GNR first as it would commit money to that title first.

Given that you are lucky enough have both versions, you are the authority. I'll defer to you.

And the biggest advantage.
The probability for spareparts in the future increases significantly.

I think the whole Johnny Depp debacle was putting a halt to this (and anything pirates) from Disney. But now that he seems in the clear, this could open things back up a great deal. Disney was trying to separate themselves from that this whole time, but looks like things are in the up and up. And if JJP did make another Pirates run, I'll be first in line with money in hand ready to buy.

I hope they do, so there might be more demand for a mechanical chest open/close mod. There's the excellent motor driven mod already out there, but I would love for someone to create a mechanical version that used the fork motion, like in the prototype. I prefer the quick open/close of the prototype, synced perfectly with the lights and audio.

When they re-run the LEs, look for it to cost WoZ YBR money - $11,500. Even at that price I think they'll still easily sell 500 or more, especially once that filters out and more people get to play one and see how great it is.

Im still not convinced.

He could just be talking about WoZ again. I know theres still some people out there me included that would like a RR WoZ NIB.

There were more major issues with POTC then just johnny Depp and licensing. Im sure it was a nightmare to build on the line. And also the amount of Tech support calls and faulty parts.

Im not rooting against it at all. I have CE im set. Im just not convinced.

I tend to agree. While I Sincerely wish they would make more as this game is absolutely amazing business sense would say otherwise. Before all this Covid stuff and the plant relocation I had hopes it could happen but it doesn't look probable. Unlike the other titles in there arsenal This one had an expensive license clock. They can rebake WOZ and DI (and possibly GNR) for as long as they wish and my guess is they will still find buyers. A pirates rerun would need a huge gamble of resources and capitol which I fear would not be in the cards now. Do love this game though.

Rather than asking ourselves whether JJP will make more POTC, I prefer to ask why didn’t JJP make more? When JJP was running the game, it was selling yet they stopped production around the 1000 game mark. Was it a high BOM, was demand saturated, was design susceptible to breaking, was it impossible to source parts, was the cost to reup the license high or maybe there was a lack of desire to renew by licensor. Of the possible reasons, having a high BOM doesn’t register as a legitimate reason because JJP could simply raise selling price.

Jack and Eric have been interviewed numerous times, but we have yet to hear why JJP stopped making JJPOTC, so we are left wondering. Why JJP quit running POTC holds the answer to whether JJP will consider running more. Some interviewer needs to ask Jack why?

How many runs has WOZ had? They are very reasonably priced on the used market. I think the demand for DI is also very soft, the game is not hard to find.

POTC is low hanging fruit IMHO as the game is already designed and the demand is there, it is JJP’s only game that sells for more than the original price on the used market. JJP could finish the LE run and even if they only sold 500 that is 5 million dollars (that’s a lot of cheddar).

I think this question would be better answered by Pat Lawler then Jack. Just my opinion and guess.

I agree with everything you said Except the final tally. They would more than likely make closer to 500k than 5 million as the product has to be made. And then the Big question, while everyone does Want one, how many would step up and pay 11.5k for one now?

Before u can begin to answer that question u need to understand their margins....I have no idea what they are, but I suspect at $9500 they were small, and the core reason they stopped making them was simple...they weren't making any money....even if they sold at $11.5/LE I'm still not convinced it makes sense with all the start up costs to get that line rolling again....my guess is their gonna hang their hat on Wonka, WOZ re runs, and their next two titles with the hope they turn the corner on profitability...

I was thinking they were gonna make 500 more a few months ago.... however lots has changed in a short time for jjp and in pinball in general. The complete stop of production for all manufacturers and with so many arcades most likely having to close their doors allready and not knowing how much longer this mess is gonna continue really will effect our small hobby and allready has had a big impact. Then them moving everything to Illinois is another huge job so who knows how plans have changed . I think releasing a new title may be the best bet when/if things get back to normal over the next 6 months . I guess will c how all.this mess pans out but I don't think potc wld be the best move at this time even if its 11500-12k? Only time will tell and I hope everything works out but not sure how many folks will be ready to fork out 12 k when the dust settles.

If they were profitable at $9,500 retail and sell 500 YBRs for $11,500, that's more like a pretty solid $1 million straight extra dough, PLUS whatever profit was in the machine at $9500, and all the R&D expenses are already flushed with the first run.

And I don't think 500 is all they'd sell. 500 more initially, but I bet they'd have a run or two after that to satisfy demand once people get hands on with it at shows.

I don't think they were profitable at $9500, which is why they shut it down...probably cost a lot more to build than they originally anticipated

I think the shutdown had more to do with the cancelled orders and bad reaction from discgate and trunkgate. There was a LOT of bad vibes around from people that hadn't played it and that overlapped actual production. WoZ is pretty packed and they're making money with that.

Pirates relaunch: director's cut edition featuring the triple disk, moving trunk mech, flawless playfields, and all licensed assets for $11.5k. Easily 1,000+ sales as well as the biggest uproar in Pinside history lol.

Or a Black Pearl Edition

Curious. Do you think the licensing for a 50 year old WOZ was the same or less for Disney Pirates? Do you really think they sold 500 YBR’s while stripping it of features to scratch a profit? And the big one, do you think now or the next six months 1000 people will be lined up to spend 12k on a re-release game? Hope they do but just not seeing it.

I don't see it either....I do agree they would sell a lot of units, but the $12K price point is pretty steep even for Pirates. Although I do realize that the secondary market is significantly higher for LE's

Yeah not sure. Zach from SDTM recently sold a loaded HUO loaded LE, including the chest mod, for $12k or less. I sold a perfect HUO LE for $12k a few weeks ago with a good number of mods. I know I'll regret selling it one day but wanted something different. Hell I'm regretting it now a bit, can't lie lol, fun game! I should have bought the new crazy cool dauntless mod, that would have prevented me from selling it.

yea I've seen them sell for anywhere from $11K-$14K. If they release new code will that increase demand? Who knows as it really doesn't matter in my world. I'm number 3 on the dauntless mod so looking forward to seeing how that looks. From the pics it looks like a work of art

If this is true, it means the R&D of the game was spread over fewer machines, effectively making them more expensive. The actual BOM wasn't technically higher, but you've got all those sunk fixed costs that have to be paid from somewhere.

No... Just no... POTC is done, it's been done, it will continue to be done. If JJP really wants to infuriate it's loyal customer base then go ahead, make more, destroy the value of the games for those of us who have them. This topic really needs to die. If you want one that bad, buy one from someone who doesn't want it as bad as you do.

Jeff

Wanna bet? Let’s say a $20.00 donation to Pinside from the loser. I say we will see another run of POTC produced by JJP in the next 12 months.

Like when Jack made Ruby Red WOZ? I’m not sure how his customer base could be infuriated if he finished the run of LE’s.

I'd certainly like to hear the most important reasons JJP cut production short (Wonka politics, BOM, assembly line mutiny) but I'll bet it was profit/game and lower-than-expected demand (at the time). After the delays, and after watching many many streams, and infinite availability, I had decided to wait for Black Knight and Elvira, etc. It was only when Jack stated he was stopping production at TPF, that I panicked along with everyone else and most of the LE inventory poofed.

I got quite a bit of time in on a proto with the three spinning discs and agree 100%. Losing the feature didn’t ruin the game, but the crazy ball movement from the three discs was great. I really wish they hadn’t had to cut it out.

Yep, put the triple disc in there and viola! Huge shitstorm....

I think they were only shooting to sell 200 YBRs.

If they can sell GnR machines @ $9,500 that we don't know are awesome (but strongly suspect) in the next 6 months, then a proven jjPotC machine with great reviews @ $11,500 would sell at least 500. Even MORE likely if they change the center art on the LEs PF from Depp only to a cast montage to make it more unique and give the Anti-Depp faction something to feel good about.

I've played both and the single disk that's in the production version actually produces more ball movement.... but man that triple disk version was sweet looking and neat to see.

I actually scrambled to get one of the last NIB POTCLE’s, because of the Wonka reveal. I was so excited about my dream theme and then I saw how they cheaped out on mechs and the rule set didn’t flow, etc. It made me immediately call my distributor and cancel Wonka for POTCLE, which were pretty much gone. I got one of the last few. I think there were a lot of others that originally boycotted Pirates for reduction in mechs, that suddenly wanted Pirates more after they saw just how stripped it could get with Wonka.

Having both POTC & Wonka, I can say definitively that not only do Wonka’s rules flow extremely well, but there is no game more addictive once you have owned it. Golden Tickets are a fun challenge that keeps you coming back for one more plunge. Assets are clearly vastly superior to POTC as well especially with the adjustments via the latest code.

Here is my guess... NO!

Why? Guns N Roses has obviously been done for a long time they were waiting for TPF. Then the virus hit now that game could be delayed for several more months. Willy Wonka has been done for a year now... point being is Toy Story has to be now on the heals of Guns N Roses.

JJP promised two games in the same year, and I think you will probably see just that two games. If you have two lines I think you'll see Guns N Roses on one line maybe both, and the other line Willy Wonka until they're ready for Toy Story.

Here is my prediction Guns N Roses comes out in June, and Toy Story comes out in Chicago/October.

Where does Pirates fit in? The problem with Pirates is getting the parts. I think JJP should make more Pirates but I think you're going to see the two new games first.

Agreed I personally perfer wonka gameplay over potc by a fair amount and I like the code/rule set better also. Having a gazillion mechs /toys doesn't make a game automatically amazing. Look at afm and most stern pins for that debate lol. However potc is still amazing and I enjoy the neat upper playfield and huge subway system with lots of entrances.

I hope so but I'm guessing the move has been delayed bc of this virus stuff which wld push things back even more so unfortunately. Only time will tell I guess.

I think people would already have GNR if it wasn't for TPF being cancelled/virus. I just don't think any pinball company is going to be releasing games for a while until they understand the economy.

Even when you get the green light to go back to work would it be smart to launch your game? I wouldn't... I'd wait for about 6 to 12 weeks.

In JJP case this gives them a good amount of time to set up the factory, they can start production at anytime now, in other words start in May or July I doubt it matters.

My first concern with JJP at this point is not do they do another POTC, but how they fair thru the ongoing shut down, financially. Tough times for a small manufacturer that just invested capital in a facility move. I for one wish them the best here and hope they last the storm safely.

As far as re making Pirates, There had to be a significant negative reason(s) it ended for the run as it did. Significant negative reason resulted in an undesirable cash flow situation at that point in time. What those reasons can be have been postulated several times over in this thread, but, there could be other reasons we will never figure out, because, Jack is not going to air dirty laundry in public ( nor should any one expect him to ).

It will be interesting if JJP does release a large code update to the game. If well received and considering Kieth is the coder there should be no reason why not well received, the demand for the game should increase. If the reason for stopping the run were due to demand issue, then the combination of existing demand plus improved code overcomes that obstacle . The inertia of re starting the line will be need to be addressed, but , JJP knows how do meet that resistance.

If the problem was parts availability, I can see no reason that could not be overcome. The only really game specific issues are plastics and in this day and age of 3 d printers that should not be an issue. All other parts/boards should be able to be manufactured just like any other part for any other game. So ,no, parts are not the issue. They may not have parts now because they do not want to pay for re stocking. The game parts may be relatively expensive, but that can be over come by increasing the purchase price.

The license can be renewed for a fee. The fee may be larger than previously issued. Not sure I would understand why, as each year a movie does not come out should put downward pressure on the license fee, I would believe. But who knows, even if the fee goes up, that would translate to a higher cost to the consumer and with high demand.....

If Profit per machine is the issue, that is over come simply by raising the price ( or reducing spend per unit which has its own impact on unit demand). Now the trick is will that increased price drive away the supposed pent up demand. I am not sure what that price point would be ,but, say it is north of 12k ( Yellow road WOZ gives us a clue), will there be buyers (considering the ongoing virus situation)? What if it is 14K? The higher it goes, the higher the investment risk for JJP. Considering the challenges the ongoing Corona shut down are putting on the company, will they want to take that risk in the near future (say 2 to 3 years)?

So at this point, my take would be JJP's first priority now is to improve company cash flow with the lowest risk possible over the next few years. Games like Wonka may meet that need over higher cost games such as Pirates. I just wish them success for the long haul.

I find wonka to be better playing than potc too, not quite sure why, but I’d play a game or two of potc and get my fill pretty easily. With wonka, i find my self playing over and over again. It just seems more fun and whimsical to me. That said, if I had a very small collection, I would choose potc as there are just so many ways to play the game, you’d never tire of it.

Never say never, but I do not think potc will be rerun. There wasn’t much demand for the game until they announced production would stop, didn’t have enough parts, it’s a bear to produce on the line, low profit margin (my guess), etc. if I were them, I’d focus on breathing new life into the company with new titles and not focus on the past. I just think they should be moving forward. that said, perhaps they could build up parts over time and do a small vault run down the road.

I’m also not sure the math works well on a rerun relative to a new game. If they can sell potc at $12k and do a run of 250 units, assuming build cost is $7k (I have no idea what it is, just making it up), that’s $1.25 mil ($5k margin x250 units) profit before taxes, interest, whatever else comes out. Even if they ran 500 units, it’s still only about $2.5 mil. Don’t think that that keeps the lights on.

If they make a new game, charge $9500 with a build cost of say $5k and sell 2000 units (easier said than done of course), that’s $9 mil ($4.5k margin x 2000 units). No way they should be making potc. You can adjust the variables as you wish, but Im pretty sure it will be more profitable to be running new games. Woz is different because there seemed to be insatiable demand, but I don’t think potc is in that same situation. As these examples show, it’s critical they keep costs under control (and margins up) and sell in volume, yet still build the best games out there as they’ve been doing.

People often ask me which is better, POTC or Wonka - they are very different game styles and I wouldn't to let either one of them go. And you're right about the repeat factor on Wonka, we cannot stop playing it.

Like many of us, I’d just like to hear JJP actually say if they anticipate running it again or not. Lack of parts in the future is a concern. It’s a brilliant game and I’m thrilled to own it.

I've often wondered what kind of margins they have on these games...do you really think its $4500 on a $9500 game? In general business terms those margins suck, but in pinball their decent ? If the margins are pretty low than it becomes a volume game, which would explain why JJP has struggled financially (I'm guessing)...I hope they turn the corner, because they make great games and are great for the industry.

Maybe there was a variation in the construction of the prototypes - I probably put 50+ games in on a proto on location and I own the production game and the proto I played had much wilder ball movement. Wasn't unusual for the ball to change direction multiple times, be thrown up the playfield, etc.

I don’t know the margins, I had thought initially they were losing money on Woz when it was being sold for $6500. Based on that, I’d think they got margins down a bit from that and raised prices so I think maybe I’m in the ballpark. I could be totally wrong, though. my example was purely illustrative and shows the need to be producing in volume, not building 250-500 units of potc.