This all seems fairly intuitive. People just don’t like boring, rational explanations. The simplest answer is often the correct one.

Licensed themes sell better in pinball. This is fact proven time and time again. There are overwhelming sales and production numbers to prove it.

In the past, say up to the year 2000, some unlicensed themes were great games and have become highly collectible. This does not change the above facts.

Modern unlicensed themes do not sell well, but some are indeed very fun and have become exceptions to the trend. Again, this does not change the above facts.

This, obviously, does not apply to games made before licensed themes were regularly happening. I will arbitrarily use the example of EMs.

Okay, end of boring facts post with no one being insulted for their opinion.

To be clear...I am NOT advocating for Stern to produce unlicensed titles (it's clear that they have found a business model that works for them).

I am wondering though, why the environment is different now than in the B/W '90s days. Williams did well with a combination of licensed (TAF, TZ, IJ, STTNG, etc.) and un-licensed themes (MM, AFM, WH20, FT, etc.).

Why was that a good business model then, and not a good business model now? I'd love to know the answer to this.

Back then, the vast majority of sales were for location use - while now a much larger portion is home use (I don't know what the actual split is now - I would think it must be close to 50/50).

For me, when buying a home machine, the gameplay is what matters (the theme just has to "not suck"). So, I would think with a now larger portion of games being purchased for the home, that the theme would matter less - not more.

On location, I can see that a popular theme would help to attract additional customers, but wouldn't that have been the case back in the '90s too?

Why did non-licensed themes do okay back then, but don't seem to work now?

Social media.

Last I heard it was about 60/40 home to ops for Sterns. I imagine the rest of the companies sell even more to home users.

Really don’t have an answer but happier to speculate

- people are dumber / less imaginative now

-the unprecedented focus on the home market has created the need for familiarity among buyers

-the drastic shrinkage in location gaming has made unlicensed property much less attractive, hurting earnings

Yes, games cost more than ever, but the actual market for pinball, and number of machines being produced, is drastically, dramatically, outrageously smaller than it was decades ago. You can’t even compare them.

Williams probably sold more Addams families in a year than the entire industry cranks out in games a year nowadays. Any change that dramatic is going to completely shift all aspects of an industry. The home market was absolutely minuscule 30 years ago. Today it’s the dominant force.

May as well be talking about two different industries. Almost everything about it has changed.

I heard it from Tom, who heard it from his niece, who heard it from her boss, who heard it from the boss's aunt, that the next Stern (to be released in August) will be a licensed game.

(Caution: This may only make sense if you read the Chicago Trader/Seller Club thread.)

I still can't believe Ford used the Mustang name on a CUV

To me, (im not a pinball noob by far) Its all about the theme. Ofcourse gameplay does matter as well. Ill buy a pin based on theme alone without ever even playing it if its something im interested in. I bought my DE GnR on theme alone, and my walking dead LE simply because i love the themes. Never played one until i bought it. I played DE star wars once along time ago and many years later, bought it for the theme. My other 2 pins, T2 and bally playboy i played ALOT as a kid and bought those when a good deal came along. I was on top of JJP's GNR release and wouldve pulled the trigger immediately based on theme, unfortunately at the time i didnt have the means. Still never having played one if I get the opportunity one day to get one, It will be a CE. I wont go for anything less. There are a few unlicensed themes i would consider, but they would be ones i remember playing in my youth like space shuttle, gulfstream and a few others. I have absolutely no desire for godzilla or Rush. Its possible i would reconsider if i ever got to play one, but the themes are of little interest to me. If you made an unlicensed pin based on something i like, (im a HUGE zombie fan) I would seek it out and give it a shot, but it wouldnt be a "gotta have it right now even if i havent played it yet" SO label me a ThemeBoy, lol!

I won't argue anything with what you are saying, except this. For MOST of us, theme matters a lot. It is very important to making a game fun.

I would say in my opinion, that back in those days you could get away with unlicensed themes because most of them were in arcades. You went to the arcade to play the games / themes you liked and while you were there, possibly waiting to play the popular titles youd sink a few quarters into something that didnt have a line behind it waiting to be played. I think they were mostly "filler" games. And they made money by keeping you entertained until the game you wanted to play became available, or if you decided that donkey kong had kicked your ass enough for the day and it was time to blow off steam on something else, lol! And you grew into liking them.

Disagree with your wording - "get away" implies they weren't as good. In fact, they were, and many are still highly collectible today (talking pinballs). The theme drew you in. I often played the most interesting themes, not the most popular - though I played them as well.

I think it's the availability of streaming services where so much marketing and advertising reaches so many people, there's a lot more visibility for licenses. I think the problem with licenses, beyond the lack of creativity for new or interesting original themes, is that they narrow the audience. Given the target market, this doesn't matter. I want to emphasize that. But a RUSH pinball only appeals to people who like RUSH. An original theme tends to be a broader subject, appealing to more people. Again, this does NOT work today under the current business model and the limited collector market. But it does still work if the market was the casual player and the exposure to pinball was greater (another thing the digital age has taken away - physical locations).

-

For me it was different. I didnt get the chance to hit alot of arcades when i was young. However we would go camping during the summer at a campground that had an arcade. My interest mostly at that point was donkey kong, dig dug, ect. I quickly got into pinball because i realized i could rack up free games and play all day. I started playing Bally playboy for the theme, (being 10 years old, to me it was awesome to play PLAYBOY) then i got good at it and could play all day on a quarter. I moved to other titles just for something different. I played bally KISS, even though i had no love for the band, and the themes like space shuttle, gulfstream, and liberty bell, didnt impress me, i played them just for something different and grew to like them. Even though i like those machines, i wont seek them out, if one happens to fall in my lap for a good price, maybe. I bought my playboy because it was $750. It was beat up pretty badly, but i like to restore them. Ive dumped over $3500 (on top of the $750 to buy it) in the restore. I probably put more into it than what its worth, but its a keeper. Had I found a mint one for 4k, i wouldve passed on it.

You and me both. Beaters used to be such fun to buy and fix, low price and some work, now that source has dried up too.

I think the bottom line is if you took "space shuttle" and only changed the name, nothing else to "Apollo 11" its my guess it wouldve sold more units. Just my opinion.

As a child of the '80s, I can assure you space shuttles were a huge deal. Most kids could tell you the names of all the shuttles, and probably some crew members. One entire wall of my bedroom was a wallpaper photo of a shuttle in space.

It was the exact right theme at the right time, and it saved pinball despite being just an okay game.

Not a single person I knew back then was into Apollo stuff. That was old news, from when our dads were kids. Still a decade before a blockbuster film triggered a wave of '60s space nostalgia.

I can’t believe it is MOST. Maybe new people in the hobby in the last couple years who are buying LEs sight unseen, but not most the hobby. Pinball has been fun for a very long time with little regard to theme. A theme should be implemented well into the game, but I just can’t imagine not liking a machine because it isn’t a theme I like. I owned an AC/DC and I f’n hate their music.

agree 100%. Most of the vets here, don't care about theme anymore. We have been burned 100's of times by great themes with shit games, and Shit themes with great games. I hate metallica, but the game is damn good. I fawking love Led Zepplin, and what a pile of shit that game turned out to be.

Well, this is part of my statement above. To me, a theme just has to "not suck" - it doesn't have to be something I am particularly a fan of.

For example, the 3 machines I own are EBD (no, I'm not a billiards player), WH20 (no, I've never been rafting), and MB (not really a monster/horror fan). But none of these themes "suck" (like AC/DC does).

So, I'd probably never buy an AC/DC (even if it was awesome), but I'd certainly consider any non-licensed theme as long as it wasn't stupid (i.e. Dialed In).

Not only that, but Cactus Canyon Remake is a licensed pin! CGC bought the license to remake this existing IP because it's known in the pinball community and they have reason to think that familiarity with the license will generate sales. You can't really treat the remakes as "original" properties, since by definition they're not.

Yeah, I can understand not wanting a machine because you strongly dislike the theme. But only liking machines with themes you already like just seems so limiting.

Then can we count BKSOR?

Well there's a lot going on here. This makes you wonder how "most vets" line up with "new buyers."
I for sure believe it is most buyers...or maybe most buyers on Pinside anyway

Wait till you get to people buying games strictly for modding options.

2900 pins in pinside database, it's not hard to find themes you like and are fun.

I’m sorry, I was thinking too much about people who play pinball.

I mean that number is way too high. People who care about theme aren’t playing EMs. Or most solid states for that matter.

by looking at some of the LED jobs on here, you can tell which ones actually play the machines and which ones like to look at them on and not play.

Yeah those were the days

You also have people obsessed with theme becasue they think all games are keepers. Then they buy it, mod it, and sell it quick to move on.
It really doesn't make a lot of sense but this whole thing doesn't.

I care about theme (1/3 of the game in my opinion) and do indeed play EM's all the time.

My collection spans 1967 to 2016 with the sweet spot in the 80's

I feel like we are talking about different things. A pinball machine should have a theme, but there’s a difference between buying a game because you like the art and music and buying it because you like the theme.

Technically we are both correct, but I think most people here are talking about something like buying Ghostbusters because they like the movie Ghostbusters. Not buying something like Laser War because the early 90s art is cheesy and it’s fun to sing along to the theme song at the end.

People clearly want licensed themes.
The obsession is real.
EE14400D-DBD2-4598-AF9C-4A79CF09594C (resized).jpeg

Art (theme in my opinion) is separate from the sound/music and gameplay. All three have to be firing for me to have a truly enjoyable pin.

I do agree with you, people will buy a pin just on theme without seeing any game footage. I find it strange, but its their money.

Not sure we are talking about the same thing. A good theme is not just great art, it's also carried into the game play. Black Hole is a great example. It's the great ART, plus the game play is tied to the theme. Any pin where you can slap a different wrapper on it and have no difference, isn't integrated to the theme. So when I say most care about theme, I'm also saying the theme must tie into the gameplay, and of course, that gameplay has to be good. It's not just a wrapper or no wrapper.

Yeah, a game should have a theme and the theme should be integrated into the gameplay (at least on newer games, on EMs and early solid states it didn’t even really matter much). What I’m saying is, what is the theme is specifically doesn’t really matter. The game could be Barbie with modes about collecting her friends and going to the beach, if it shoots well and the rules are fun, I don’t care.

Cool, gotcha. Yeah, for me, it's a dealbreaker. I won't own a pin unless I like the theme, no matter how good it plays. It's like choosing art for your walls. So to speak.

Sadly all of the mentioned games except for Berzerk and Frenzy are Konami games (Stern Electronics was the American distributor) but yeah a well designed Berzerk/Frenzy table could do well.

“Most of us” is over 50%. I don’t know how you can possibly know this. I guess you are the pinball God.

It may matter a lot to some but should it be a starting point for the consumer? The theme is there to primarily sell the game. It could also be well integrated but, it does not have to be.

Obviously, it does not indicate how a game is designed or plays, the build quality, programming, reliability, and a dozen other factors. Those things SHOULD all matter some to a pinball consumer spending thousands. To what extent each of these things matters to each consumer differs significantly. A theme alone does not make a game fun. It can certainly be one of many game design factors. But, I think Elektra and Future Spa are very fun and no one even knows what the hell the themes are in either of those games.

A lot of times, theme does not matter at all. But, it’s nearly impossible for theme to stand alone as the only reason a game is worth playing or “good”. It’s also important to understand (historically at least) why themes are chosen by the manufacturers. If you know that, it will only make you a better informed pinball consumer and enthusiast and I don’t see any harm in that.

I just don’t see any games (are there any?) that are good only because of it’s theme. While, I see a lot of games that are only good because of one other single design choice. So for me at least, it works one way but almost never in the opposite direction.

As you mentioned previously theme is the #1 deciding factor for some, but for others theme is down the priority list. I fall into the former as it relates to pins I own. I'm limited in how many pins I can own (I have 3 and may go to 4 if the right one comes along), and theme is by far my #1 deciding factor when it comes to owning a pin (I tend to hold onto my games instead of rotating them out). Also, theme is more than just the art package. It is also the audio, game integration, etc.

However, on location I'll play anything and actually like trying pins that I normally wouldn't care about based on theme.

No one’s done a scientific poll. But based on years of reading Pinside I’d agree with him that for more than half of Pinsiders, theme “matters a lot” when considering a pin purchase.

I agree with your “it works one way,” statement, but in a slightly different way than if it makes the game good or not. I care about theme, a lot I think, but there aren’t any games that I want solely based on theme. However, there are plenty of games that I absolutely would never want solely based on theme. So theme alone can’t make a game a “yes” for me, but theme alone sure as hell can make it a “no.”

Exactly. I cringe with second hand embarrassment at the sight of has-been action star games like Demo Man and Last Action Hero. There is no way on earth I would allow anyone to see those in my house /shudder

I’ve owned both, and plan to get another Demo Man. It’s just a really fun game.

And to be frank, they are both underrated movies. Maybe not executed as well as they could have been, but both are a lot of fun.

For sure. Demo man aged well too.. I can still watch it and have a great time.

And tbh, Watson is a great artist.. It's just the translite really which people have an issue with (and backstory on that as well) ... Easily swapped but no reason that should be a deal breaker when the pf art is quite good.

I hear you, only I don’t think it’s really about those particular movies. I can’t comment on them because I haven’t seen them. I am the right age to have enjoyed my fair share of Arnold, Sylvester, Wesley, and Sandra movies, but I’d never put their faces up on my walls.

It would sell purely because, in the current availability climate, ANYTHING will sell.

Will it sell the same volume as it would if it was a Godzilla? Not a chance in hell. It would be lucky to sell HALF!

It really is that simple.

This is my impression from years on this site and others. Thanks.

Which brings up an interesting point- How many titles were licensed back in the 80's and 90's? A licensed title might have brought in more cash hence the industry move towards more licensed titles. But it was not the norm rather the exception. If there are no licensed titles, you are going to buy and play what is available.

Bally class of 1981

February 1981 – Flash Gordon
April 1981 – Eight Ball Deluxe
June 1981 – Embryon
June 1981 – Fireball II
August 1981 – Fathom
September 1981 – Medusa
October 1981 – Centaur
December 1981 – Elektra

Aside from Flash Gordon, no licensed titles.

Williams.

February 1981 – Jungle Lord
May 1981 – Pharaoh
June 1981 – Black Knight Limited Edition
July 1981 – Cyclone
July 1981 – Solar Fire
September 1981 -Barracora
December 1981 – Hyperball (not really a pinball as it had no flippers)

Stern Electronics

Freefall (1981)
Lightning (1981)
Split Second (1981)
Catacomb (1981)
Viper (1981)

Gottlieb

Force II #661 (1981)
Pink Panther #664 (1981)
Mars God of War #666 (1981)
Volcano #667 (1981)
Black Hole #668 (1981)

Aside from Pink Panther, nada.

-------------------------------------------

Looking at 1991, licensed titles are much more notable.

1991-05 Gilligan's Island Midway
1991-02 Harley-Davidson
1991-08 The Party Zone

1991-08 Hurricane Williams
1991-03 SlugFest (First Model)
1991 SlugFest (Second Model)
1991-07 Terminator 2: Judgment Day
1991-02 The Machine: Bride of Pin·bot

1991-09 Amazon Hunt III
1991-04 Cactus Jack's Premier
1991-01 Car Hop Premier
1991-08 Class of 1812 Premier
1991-02 Hoops Premier
1991-11 Surf 'n Safari

1980-1982 - the ultimate golden era of great playing pins with great themes that you could still see, the sweetness of solid state, but without the DMD distractions.

Cutoff at '86 leaves a lot of great machines behind who's audio fit the times perfectly. Pre-1980 I'd agree, the audio though the best electronic available was atrocious and the designs were glorified EM layouts at best.

Around 1980-1981 designers really started to hit their stride in the new solid state era.

It’s very simple, not sure why people don’t get this: Pinball Manufacturers can’t wait for you to go out, find a game in location, play it, then decide if you like it enough to buy. They are factories. Factories cannot stop. This is why Stern’s license & tier model saved the company. Beloved/nostalgic theme INSTANTLY sells 500-1000 LEs & even some Pros & Prems. Operators buy Pros & some Prems up front as well. Now it doesn’t even matter if anyone else buys a game, profit has been made…however, then you get the “wait and see” people as well, and the game will keep selling for years.

Dialed In & Black Knight were “wait & see” games, and sales reflected that. By the time people played them, boom - hot new licensed game is already out & has everyone’s attention.