I'd put money on Twister based on theme and DMD. There was an op in another thread, forget which one, who routed a bunch of 90s B/W games and said Whirlwind was at the bottom in earnings.

Whirwind is a playa's game; Too hard for randos.

I think I just teared up reading that. So sad.

But it tells me a lot about how the average person sees pinball as a novelty, and would rather just enjoy the spectacle more than anything else.

I’m confused by this post. Are you saying if it had the same rules and layout but generic theme, people wouldn’t be interested? I’m sure some wouldn’t, but a lot of us would.

I owned the game for over a year before I even saw one of the movies. The fun of the game isn’t that it has pictures of actors on it.

Let me rephrase this. If Stern released the LOTR table today, with the exact same layout and rules knowing what we know today, they would sell some even with a generic non-licensed theme be that Zombies, cyborgs, yetis, cubicles, whatever. However, if they took that same layout and slapped Futurama, Back to the Future, Harry Potter, or Jaws on it the game would sell many, many more units.

Matters in what way? If the theme sucks and the game never sells or gets routed, or it doesn't earn when routed because non-pinheads won't put money in it then theme still matters even if gameplay and rules are stellar.

Disagree. If BKSOR was Star Wars with an interactive, taunting Darth Vader toy in the middle, mega hit. I mean, Mando has a giant toy that doesn't do jack shit, and I bet it's outselling BKSOR by like quadruple.

Agreed. Guys were throwing money at Stern when Mando was announced. No gameplay video!

"OMG just imagine the topper i can't wait!!!"

Sad

I think you make very valid points. But I have to ask - the appeal of the market today - is the market ONLY interested in licensed titles? Or is there appeal beyond that? Ghosts, monsters, racing, westerns, etc., don't they have an equal appeal to anyone today as yesterday? If done well, I mean. Are we really saying that the ONLY interests pinball buyers have are licensed properties?

No.

Yes.

I agree that right now, licensed games are the only ones being put out by Stern, and the only one non-licensed pin they've produced lately was also a poor design. I don't see any data to support that a well designed non-licensed game by Stern would not sell as well.

As to the second part of that - I think we have too many posters on pinside who are too quick to insult other's opinions (as the world we live in right now, unfortunately).

I think we have too many posters who are too quick to say things that make zero sense and run contrary to all the information and “data” we actually have, and then get really upset and indignant when people push back on them.

If you can stand people “insulting” your opinions, you shouldn’t put them on a public forum. I mean, have you seen the world we live in right now?

Let's try that same premise with different wording, just to test it.

Like Lord of the Rings? If they re-released that exact same layout and ruleset with an LCD screen with Thunder Force, Leonard Part 6, or Blithe Spirit would you buy it? What if it was re-released and reskinned as The Abominable, Death Rising, Jacked , or Office Wars! (ala Monty Python Comedy), would you be interested?

... no

So just to be clear, you are saying Sword of rage is poorly designed? (assuming we are thinking of Black knight as essentially a non-mainstream license).

If you switched office wars to Dilbert I'd consider it though.

Yes, I know that's what you'd say. It was for anyone else besides us, since our positions are known.

This.

Disagree. Yoko2una was right.

That's what they are trying to say. I agree with you.

I disagree your disagree!

Can’t we all just disagree to agree ?

I haven't paid close attention to the thread, have carguments been made yet? If not, it is probably time.

You are right. Non-licensed cars sell just fine. Non-licensed pinballs should sell just as well.

As a matter of fact, "dino-rock" themed cars almost never sell. Case closed.

You know pinside has gone mad when Levi is the voice of reason and order.

Cactus canyon remake is an unlicensed pin and it sold like crazy when announced recently.

One could argue that it sold well just because it's "a remake of a popular 90s pin" but the thing is the original CC was stopped in production really early and never were a popular pin back then so that argument doesn't apply here.

My conclusion is unlicensed games can be a success if it's a well thought out theme with good layout/sound/toys. Having a famous designer behind it obviously helps too.

All above is certainly doable from Stern too but they go the "easy" route using licences to minimize their risks.

Unlicensed games (no recognizable theme) JUST DON'T SELL!

*****Close thread*****

My understanding is that these releases are on a much smaller scale than the numbers Stern is moving. In a smaller run sense, these unlicensed or remade pin licenses absolutely make sense.

Unlicensed pins make "X" profit.

Licenced pins (same development & hardware costs + licensing fee) make "Y" profit.

Y is clearly greater than X for *Stern* despite the licence fee as that is their current business model.

CC has a cult following due to rarity, similar to Big Bang Bar. Of course it sold well, it’s a known and popular property.

The only unlicensed pins that seem to do well are the remakes because they already have a big following due to nostalgia/demand/rarity. The only exception is TNA...but then again (depending on how you quantify success) it only sold 550 units.

I certainly get this. I purchased a DE JP from a friend because I just loved the theme. However, after beating the game a few times I still wanted to love it, but barely could bring myself to ever play it. I probably held onto it longer than I should have, but I found a nice home for it and upgraded to a Stern JP that I enjoy significantly more.

I wonder how many BBB would sell if there is a direct remake? Frankly the popularity of the title is driven by its rarity and backstory.

Update the code & a color display and I think it would do well but not Stern numbers. Non-pinheads don't know BBB from a hole in the wall.

I disagree with this. If you are a home owner or casual player (even a seasoned one), often times it is about familiarity with the story that attracts you to a given pin. As others have stated, theme goes beyond the art package. It is familiarity somewhat what the story and how such is integrated into the game play and achievements. I do generally agree that those more experienced in pinball tend to appreciate in on a broader level and are open to explore titles they would not normally be attracted to.

I think CGC has found a special niche. All 4 of their titles have been non-licensed themes: AFMr, MMr, MBr (might be considered licensed by some), CCr. I think nostalgia coupled with supply for the original titles exceeding demand along with other factors all have contributed to their success.

Been saying for years that a company turning out more or less direct re-makes of certain classic titles would be a license to print money.

Bally Fathom, Stern Quicksilver, Bally 8 Ball Deluxe, Stern Stargazer, Bally Centaur, Bally Flash Gordon. 500 to 1000 titles for $6000-$7500 and every single one would be sold out and most of them use fairly common mechs aside from Centaur.

Unfortunately I think the days of sub $7500 NIB games will soon be behind us. Stern Pros will likely be $7500+ by 2023. Games like Beatles have shown us that just because a game doesn't have ramps doesn't mean it will cost less. The extra drop target mechs offset that cost basically. I would love to see some of these older games re-made but I wouldn't be able to justify the $8-$10k price tag. Although in this market there will likely be many that would.

I'd much rather play black knight than Zep, mando, ghostbusters, ect. Lots of poor designs sell well. Lots of great designs with poor themes don't. Neo is right in the fact that a theme doesn't make a game good or bad, but still at the end of the day the theme is what attracts buyers. Myself included, even though I'm the first to say that the design and layout has to be good. Ghostbusters is a dream theme of mine and the game is awful. Pretty much don't want to even own one now, certainly at the price it commands.

The people who you constantly see harping about wanting original themes are mostly casusals who only play on location, so they really have no skin in the game if it ends up being an original theme they don't like, they just won't play it while the owner of the game is left with a bad taste in their mouth because it didn't earn. Either them or the kind of guys who want original themes but also will pay obscene amounts of money for DE BTTF, Ie: noobs with money who think they know what they want but really don't.

Pretty easy to me. Why would the manufacturers pay license fees if they did not increase the sales of games?

Great recent example:

Legends of Valhalla.

Maybe one of the most interesting recent games to come out. Great shots, excellent sound track , fun rules. The Deluxe is priced well considering the going price of the high end versions of games today. The game was announced in October. 500 Deluxe models announced and the distributors are still trying to sell out the original 500 here 6 months later. I bet if the same game was licensed under the "Vikings" TV show and the actor that played Ragnar Loth brick were doing the callouts, people would be dreaming that there were only 500 Deluxe's and going crazy on the lack of a topper on the to be announced base model .

1) Beatles was shameless money grab and there is substantial cost for that license and assets.

2) offset by single level design and no lcd or dmd display.

I would love to see it but I think games like Beatles and the Fathom remake are setting the precedent for pricing. And I think Fathom is close to $8k for the cheap model once you factor in shipping.

I'm not new to pinball but theme matters to me. Yes the layout and rules have to be great too.

Even the base Fathom isn't a direct remake (RGB lighting and displays) and Australia is a long way from Chicago. Just moving production stateside would lower the price, down below isn't cheap.

With the exception of electronics (I don't expect a company to start turning out -35 MPU's) just a direct remake.

You would sell out 1000 overnight.

Theme matters more to operators. I wonder what percentage of Stern’s sales go to home use vs operators. There is a gray area too where many home users have lots of pins and they need to rotate at a location.

I would group anyone that doesn’t run a location as their primary job in the home use category

Here's the thing: In the video game world (the multi-billion dollar video game world), nearly all of the top-selling games are original IPs. Why? Because a team of highly creative young people like to create wonderful new worlds using their young creative ideas. They don't want to be limited by petty licensing restrictions. Unlimited creative freedom is why people work in the creative industry.

In the pinball world, it's all about themes. Themes will shift a $10k toy by the bucket load.

Pinball also offers a very unique gameplay experience, not seen in the video game world. As I've demonstrated for many years with my games, you can create an immersive movie experience in a pinball game. Like Aliens for example, you get to play along side the actual cast from the movie. In the video game world, you'd have a new story with new characters set in the Aliens world. No one wants that. We want to fight along side the actual Colonial Marines from the movie. In pinball you can do that.

Same with Star Wars, Spider-man, Iron Man, Batman...etc, etc. All the cast, all the characters and all the action from the movie... if the pinball company negotiates a good deal. Negotiate a shitty deal (Stern's Indiana Jones), and you have Sean Mockery instead of Sean Connery. And a limp-dick game that isn't worth a damn.

Modders will right wrongs of course, but non of them are professionals, so you end up with unprofessional results.

Some big themes are on the way, and as Stern have proven with Godzilla... they can be monster commercial AND critical hits.

Key word is 'can'. Anything 'can' be successful if done right but you are practically guaranteed success with a good license. That's the big difference. If Stern announced a BTTF pin with no pics or video, it would still sell. If Stern announced an unlicensed theme based around time travel, things would be very different and everyone knows it. Theme does not guarantee it will be a good game but it would at least sell to some degree. A mediocre unlicensed theme would be a disaster.

I’m a little surprised there is still back and forth going on here. It’s quite simple.

Theme is not important to make a fun game, and to some of us theme barely matters at all. But that’s not the only consideration and it ignores business and economics completely.

On route, non-pinheads will put money into the themes they recognize. You put a Back to the Future and a Whirlwind in a place where non-pinheads frequent, BTTF probably earns more. The difference would probably be even bigger if you did it with Star Wars and Dialed-in. It’s as simple as that.

For home, people spending $8-15k on new games want machines based on things they like. It’s as much, if not more, about having something to look at and show off as it is having a machine to play. Not everyone, but a significant portion.

So because of those things, it doesn’t make sense for Stern to make unlicensed games. The model they have now is doing amazingly well and there is zero need to change it and nothing to indicate it wouldn’t be significantly worse.

Cactus Canyon is well known in the pinball community. It sold well because enough people have played it at least little and want to play a full version of it. And probably a little because there are people collecting all the CGC games.

If it didn’t exist and Stern came out with a new game based on a kinda goofy cowboy theme with a big, ugly head bash toy people would shit all over it.