And the amusing part is a number of unlicensed pins were based off current trends or movies.

Gottlieb had a slew of pins in the 60's that were knockoffs of hollywood movies and continued into the solid state era.

Gold Wings = Top Gun
Hollywood Heat = Miami Vice
Spring Break = (Spuds the dog)

Laser War from Data East (Laser Tag was big here) Phantom of the Opera (Broadway revival at the time)

it was suppose to be lazer tag and the license didn't pan out for various reasons

Levi is right, if Pinside was put in charge of Stern it would be out of business in 6 months.

If this game had a darker theme such as "Chaos in Quantum City" and was built around someone who destroys a city, with better scoring, this game would have been a sensational hit.

It's too light and airy, the phone thing is annoying, the music too campy, and the scoring is atrocious. I used to own this game and for as great as the layout and rules were, I couldn't bring myself to push the start button after a couple years. I just didn't want to hear that terrible music and grind for points.

I'm not so sure, clearly dinosaur rock themes sell and a significant number of pinsiders love them.

Beatles, Led Zep, Aerosmith, ACDC, Rush, etc.

You mean 40-50 year old music that is so great that it's stood the test of time over decades only to dominate streaming services now? "Dinosaur rock" suggests extinction. It's far from that and people still want it because nothing has come out that is better.

Market has already clearly spoken. Pins with popular titles sell by theme alone. People start putting money down at just the rumor of Stern doing a popular theme.

"Green Energy", lol, that had to be a joke. Maybe a spine tingling Gardening pin or Mowing the Lawn pin would sell!

Agree

Maybe not better, but there's plenty that's just as good. The great old music isn't so much the dinosaur, it's more the people whose taste has ossified around it. It's not that they're wrong about "their" music being great, it's that their ears are closed to anything else being as good.

Dino rock implies its old, I didn't come up with the term, it's been around for some time.

This is why you have the perspective you do. You love pinball and have played and bought many that were unlicensed and you appreciate them. Most of us posting here like them too.

However, Stern and others are selling pinball machines to a whole new generation of buyers with historic wealth. They are looking for cool expensive toys, some looking for nostalgia, whatever. They are not real pinheads, they want things their friends will think is cool. A Godzilla pin is cool, a cell phone pin is not.

Some of these new buyers may eventually become pinheads and appreciate unlicensed games, but if I'm risking my manufacturing line, I'm building things that appeal to the market that exists today, not 30 years ago.

Theme is my #1 priority/attraction when it comes to pins (however, a theme I like with bad game play/rule set/etc. is a deal killer). Just look at two of the most popular pins ever: Attack From Mars (my personal favorite) and Medieval Madness. While I cannot speak to how these pins earned, my assumption is quite well given how popular they are. I also think there has to be a differentiation between themes when it comes to routing pins and home use. I would think to maximize earnings with the general public pins need to be relatable to current pop culture (movies, bands, etc.) However, home owners are much more willing to invest their time in something that appeals to them beyond just a recognizable license.

For the manufacturer's it probably comes down to sales volume in most cases. If a boutique with limited planned runs then they are probably more willing to target the home user with an unlicensed theme. If you are the #1 pin manufacturer (e.g. Stern) then you are probably looking to move as much product as possible, minimize development time, etc. so licensed themes are the way to go. Of course there are always exceptions where there are historical loyal followers (e.g. BKSOR, CGC pins, etc.), which remove any inherent demand risk that comes with a completely original non-licensed theme.

Regardless, I'm thankful and appreciate the efforts of those who have brought us recent titles like Dialed In, Total Nuclear Annihilation, and others that are creative, innovative, and fun to play.

For the umpteenth time this thread alone BKSoR sold like poop by all accounts. If it sold better than JP and Godzilla, more "unlicenced" games would be flowing from Stern. Fortunately for us, they like to stay in business... so they make what actually sells. Imagine that.

And like many other people, theme seems to be king for you. You said it at the top.

Even great pinball podcasters like SDTM are theme theme theme.... then everything else seems a distant second.

I am in the "seasoned pinhead" camp in that if I really want say the Goonies, I can watch it on my TV. If a Goonies game comes out that is all round great, and challenging, and something I would want in my home for years... then that is also cool. But I am not going to buy a pin with a janky or "too easy" layout, annoying sounds, unfun rules "because of the theme".

I have a pretty simple rule for my collection - "if it is not getting played, it is out". Who gives a crap about theme if you are not playing the game because you are done with it, or you just want something new? Oh yeah, the person you are hoping to sell your game to... Licensed themes are king when a manufacturer is revealing a game, and when you go to sell it. What can you do.

I've thought before that a Solarpunk sci-fi theme could be really beautiful. Like a drab, dirty city setting that you gradually transform into a lush, inviting futuristic one in the solarpunk style. I think what I picture would have to be done as a P3 module or a virtual game. I don't know how you would do something like that with the static art of a 100% physical game.

"Green energy" is clearly an off-putting term to many due to politics, and I think even to someone who's entirely on board and enthusiastic about green energy, it's not a term that screams with excitement. But framed in a futuristic sci-fi way I would hope more people could see how that could be cool. In terms of the life cycle of the species, we humans have toddled a few steps away from living in literal caves, but we're still burning stuff we found on/in the ground to stay warm and safe like they did, so...

Anyway, just trying to say that HydrogenHuman isn't the only person to have thought a theme in this vein might be appealing. Like I said, I think it could be stunning visually. However, I also think it would get crushed by whatever ho-hum Disney IP or Blatant Nostalgia theme Stern cranked out next.

Yes, lots of people have come up with Terrible ideas for pinball companies that would likely put them out of business, that’s nothing new.

Meanwhile, the big boys will just keep cranking out the licenses games, which sell.

I mean..:weird Al. A fucking Weird Al license is going to save a pinball company that has been treading water for years.

And there’s STILL lunatics who think, ya know what? A company should instead of selling sure fire games produce a game called “Green Energy.”

BKSoR wasn't a dud because of lack of licensed theme. It was a dud because it had 1 toy on the empty PF and NOTHING else... and if you were really rich you got TWO empty playfields!

It even felt phoned in from SR when he was speaking about it at one of the shows and said something along the lines "I don't think we've ever used that many flat plastics before". Yeah, that's what fills out a game and gets the people going - flat plastics! Sandwiched between two Pros like GB, AIQ, JP, Mando, TMNT, IMDN, MET, or ST, and BKSoR looks like they forgot to ship half the game in the box.

It's still fun to flip, but the dud sales were because everyone saw it and decided to see what was coming next (which I think was JP and had a much more attractive Pro offering).

I totally agree that Weird Al will bring Multimorphic to "the next level". I even thought about it the other day how Weird Al was going to sell very well. Ironic.

When I was reading about the history of pinball and the ups and downs it has had in popularity, I realized that licensed and unlicensed both equally helped keep pinball alive depending on the Era.

In the 70's pinball struggled until Evil Kenievel came out, and then it died down again towards the late 70's then took off again thanks to Flash in 1980, then died down and came back with High Speed in 85. Both of those were unlicensed pins, yet Flash is way up on the number of machines produced.

Anyway, I'm just glad unlicensed pins are being made, and will continue to be made like that spiritual successor to White Water.

I love these threads purely for the suggestions other Pinsiders make for non-licensed theme ideas. Honestly, Gary if you are reading this, just do the opposite of what these people say. Which you already are doing...and making money hand over fist. Green energy...hahahahahaha.

Pinball was not “struggling” in the 70s and evel Kineval didn’t save it. Ever heard of Space Mission, target alpha, or Grand Prix? Or 100 other games?

Where do people come up with this shit?

Wow, this topic again? Right now anything will sell, but at the end of the day, themed games are big sellers, non themed are not. Any attempt to argue otherwise just screams being a noob and not knowing what you're talking about

I would like to enter exhibit 1: P3 Multimorphic.

Up until last month, every game they sold has been unlicensed.
Most pinball people won't consider buying a game until they can try it out in the wild.
There are virtually no wild P3 systems, and I didn't see my first one until last week, and I live on pinside and in pinball Nirvana.
People won't commit to a pin unless they play it first or there is a brand associated with it.
For some people... that brand may be a designer, for others, that may be a company (see Spooky fanboys). These in and of themselves appeal to small groups of people. However, get a license and you have a built in fanbase from the start. P3 gets Weird Al and all of the sudden they have a year long backlog. I put down money day one as I'm a huge Weird Al fan and I don't care who makes it, I want it.

If P3 dropped "Mall Madness" with the same layout, would they have gotten the same sales as Weird Al? How about Zombie slayer? Yukon Yeti? Heist?

Just about any license is a dream theme for someone, and drives sales.

I'm sure Stern would like nothing more than to sell unlicensed games, but there's a reason he doesn't

That was a head scratcher alright!

Classic rock is pretty much extinct and has been for decades. I remember being told the Black Crows were gonna save it

perfect point. If Gary could make machines and NOT half to pay a licensing fee on them he would.

Here is another case for why licensed pins are king.

Like Lord of the Rings? If they re-released that exact same layout and ruleset with an LCD screen with Futurama, Harry Potter, or Back to the Future would you buy it? What if it was re-released and reskinned as Yukon Yeti, Zombie Killer, Cyberpunk America, or American Cubicle, would you be interested?

The Gary Stern retirement fund demands maximum return on expenditures!

I hate the liscesnes associated with machines. HATE them! But, it does not matter what I care about. Just look at the market. BTTF by Data East. HORRIBLE game, about the worst ever made by DE. Commands a serious premium. Same with TFTC. NOT a great game, people want the theme because they remember the ridiculous show. Themes are what the new $ in pinball care about. It's no longer ONLY a bunch of middle aged smelly pinball nerds that pay a premium only for the best games. It's what the general public feels is a recognizable and enjoyable theme that they can have their non pinball family and friends still tolerate the "old guy that likes something 100 years old". If it's a good game, it sells for even more. Sad that it can never really be the starting point. Dialed In is a rare example here but even though the theme is not directly licensed, it's essentially the continuation of a Whirlwind/Earthquake/next in the Pat L. series that is essentially still a B/W idea/theme that previously existed as a disaster theme in pinball popular among those stinky nerds I previously mentioned... Hence, the answer to JJ some years later with Stern's "update" of BKSOR.

But with new games, the theme is the starting point for orders to flow in quickly. It's just the way it is and nothing can change that if the market buying these ultra expensive toys remains the same.

To directly answer your question, it "might" sell but it will sell "A LOT LESS OFTEN".

Bahaha

American Cubicle would be a yes for me, but only if it was an Office Space ripoff in the style of those gloriously obvious 80's and 90's ripoffs like Hollywood Heat

Wait a minute, I know! Just make an Elon Musk themed or Tesla themed pin! Would sell out instantly, haha!

1) BTTF fans are hardcore, as a DE fan I'd not pick one up to try unless the price was right.

2) TFTC is a fun game, no fan of the theme though. Its one of the few I'd put up with despite the theme.

3) For a lot of people theme are the thing, look at people waving piles of cash when Mandalorian annouced! For me its a game of thirds; theme/sound/gameplay. They all have to mesh to be an enjoyable game.

Eight Ball Deluxe raises his hand and says, "umm..."

Some games were at the right place and time; Flash to me is ugly as sin but its gameplay, flash effect and sound were considered notable in its day. Space Shuttle is another one, "the game that saved pinball" after a run of mediocre games, perhaps it was a breath of fresh air.

The Bally "class of 1981" was such unique high water mark for a company. Outstanding titles.

That's what I should have clarified and said; Pinball would surge in popularity again whenever a significant landmark machine released. Pinball goes in waves of interest, is what I'm saying. The wave dies down for a bit, then some significant machine releases and wam! More people jump into pinball again.

You do realize I mentioned that theme is the most important thing a current manufacture considers, right?

Even though I could care less, the majority of buyers consider it the #1 factor when deciding what to buy. Does not mean I have to consider what I buy because of that fact. It actually HELPS my cause quite a bit. I look for great games with awful themes on purpose. It's worked out ok.

Now that you say it, it’s actually kind of shocking that neither musk nor any of his fanboys has commissioned a one off machine dedicated to him, Aaron Spelling style!

Please stop. Your crazy revisionist history might be confused by someone as factual and it is so bizarre and wrong that it actually makes my head hurt.

Pinball was incredibly successful in the WHOLE 1970s. And for decades before. There are tons of sites with very detailed information on the history of pinball, please go read them.

Pinheads representing less than 10% of buyers but make up 90% of the daily conversation: “we want original themes”

Makers: “check out our latest game [Dialed In, BKSOR, Whoa Nellie, Americas Most Haunted, TNA, Lexi Lightspeed, Cosmic Cart Racing, Heist, Canon Lagoon, Houdini, Oktoberfest, Legends of Valhalla, Full Throttle, The Mafia, RAZA, Celts, Cosmic Carnival, Punny Factory, et al]

Pinheads: “no not like that!”

The sales success for a company like Spooky selling 550 TNAs would be abysmal for a company like Stern.

I know that I am in the minority. Plenty of themes I would love, few I would buy because at the end of the day, theme doesn't make the game. How the theme is integrated and the gameplay itself makes the game. I am actually attracted to original themes if they are done right.

Tons of crap games made from popular licenses, but when most of your buyers are buying based on teh name alone, sight unseen, of course theme is king.

That's probably the reason why unlicensed pins can still come out in this day and age, because smaller companies don't need to sell thousands and thousands of machines to make profit.

So in a way, today is better than ever for unlicensed pins because they don't have as much pressure to sell a lot.

Right!

Most pinball companies have no interest in selling a lot of pinball machines.

Your posts should be required reading for anybody interested in the history of pinball, and the current state of the industry.

The first thing a person sees when they look at a pinball machine is the artwork, so it naturally makes sense that if it's a movie, or show, or band they recognize, they will gravitate to it.

I consider music pins to be almost unlicensed themes. I don't really like Metallica too much, not enough to spend thousands of dollars on a pinball machine themed about them... but OMFG, the freaking game is amazing. I don't have a single Metallica song on mine, and I just love playing it. AC/DC? Aerosmith? Pretty much the same deal. I don't care about the theme at all, but I really enjoy playing the games.

I was a big fan of Munster's, and excited when Stern announced it. But then I played it, and every bit of excitement evaporated.

Theme is there to allow the game to get made. Stern isn't going to build games they can't sell. No matter how good a game is, it needs the theme to get it out of the gate. The only exception to this is when manufacturers are intentionally doing an unlicensed game to get us hard core pinheads. But really it is all about pre-orders, and those are based by theme.

I'm definitely the sort of person that would actually overlook a machine if I didn't find the theme appealing. Metallica is a great example. But then I realize, even though this is themed around Metallica, it's designed in a completely unique and pinball oriented way. And that's when I'm able to overlook the theme and go, "hey, this is really cool!"

Deadpool is another example of a pin I never even bothered to look at for the longest time, and then I watched gameplay of it and was blown away by how fun it looked.

And I feel like that's the kind of effect unlicensed pins do to people. They look at it an go "Dialed in? Is this about some super hero with a smartphone or something?" and they likely just ignore it rather than trying it for the gameplay aspect.

Now taking orders for non-licensed pinball. Please make your selection:

A) Evel Kineval
B) Anvil Kineval
C) Dr. Evel
D) Evel Knieval remake

$ Deposits are required

I'm more of an unlicensed pin fan, which is why I like the the late 80s/early 90s B/W games more than the modern ones. They have a certain personality you don't get with the newer licensed games. I think there is a little more creativity and imagination in design with original themes. I feel like the star of the game, not a cast of characters. With that said, I like Lawlor pins, but walking up to a Dialed In for the first time, I'm thinking the design was targeted towards a 16 year old. Felt "too millennial" with the cellphone and taking selfies. If the theme is interesting, I'll put credits in.

if you think theme matters. You are new to pinball. All comes down to layout and rules. Good theme and great art will help the sales somewhat. But if the gameplay/rules are ass, they stop quickly once people realize it.

A lot of pinball machines these days are very complicated to understand what you’re supposed to be doing. There are some great games under a terrible theme paint layer.

Not only does a recognizable licensed theme get you to first try it out, the theme is what will get you to keep trying it to try to understand it while it gives your brain little dopamine hits in terms of callouts, video clips, and toys.

The theme does all the heavy lifting in selling the game to owners and location players.

Further in the LCD age, it’s simply worth paying for a good license to give the software team a huge jumping off point in generating assets to use in the game, or at the very least a lot of inspiration and ideas to implement.

It’s hard coming up with a bunch of original storylines, characters and other art designs, audio visual assets, etc. All for someone to say “well that’s not the original theme I wanted, so give me the latest Disney/rock pin”

I wonder what would happen if you placed Whirlwind and Twister next to each other to see who would "win". Would be a very interesting experiment.

With casuals? I assume Twister. Recognizable theme, slightly more modern with a DMD, ball save, and easier to achieve multiball.