(Topic ID: 100355)

Will CPR run Eight Ball Deluxe playfields?

By cdnpinballer

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by vid1900
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#18 9 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

There are 5, just on Pinside, already.

Guys,

A typical/minimum CPR run is ~100 boards to even consider a re-run (or run in general). There would be a loooong way to go for EBD. The hobby is saturated with them from years past. IPB alone ran nearly 500 of them back in 2003 and 2006 combined. They were the ones with the "colored checkerboard" on the aprons, and lingered on Ebay for up until 2 years ago, from usually 4-6 random sellers simultaneously at $400-$450 B.I.N. prices and would sit there for months with no bids. They still often pop up from time to time.

Quoted from Collin:

Wasn't the last Centaur run just like 8 or 10 playfields?

It was 20, actually. Those recent Centaurs were part of a set of trial runs (like sea trials for a new ship) on a new CNC machine we were putting into operation. The trials took place through winter/spring of 2014. Mike and the boyz had to learn new languages, tool changer programming, a new controller, setup & layout, etc. They chose a few playfields where we happened to have leftover baggies of insert kits from years ago. Some Fathoms and Xenons were also done. Around 30 each. Meanwhile, our original CNC kept doing runs of 100+ in another room, as we were bringing this new/replacement machine online. So in essence, those trial playfields were not re-runs. They were no-risk sink-or-swim material to trial the machinery to our satisfaction, and THEN the machine would be internally green-lighted to take on runs of 100+. (as of course, it is now) EBD could have been one of those three trials, but we had no leftover inserts for EBD.

PS: still have 2 Xenons left of that 30.... so..... what does that indicate? Last time Xenon was run was 200 in 2008 ! Can't even move an additional 30 in 2014. Yikes.

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

2 months later
#48 9 years ago

Guys,

I would direct you all back to my post (#18) in this thread. Nobody seemed to get the underlying message on that one...I'll try to expand on it a little more this time.

I was going to come back to this thread a month ago - just to write a "monument post" to acknowledge (and could forever be linked back to) how this always goes down. Just so it won't happen again. I never did, so I guess this post will have to suffice.

Two months ago this thread started, and I knew (like clockwork) how it was going to go. It goes like it always does. Names would begin to be collected, there would be an inital rush of a handful of people (see: "There are 5, just on PinSide, already!")... then a week or two would go by, growing the list to a final 12 (see: "We've got 12 on the list already!")... then... dead silence... and the thread dies. Crickets.

This is the thing, guys... these re-run hopes are not what they seem. Yes, a few people would love to see certain playfields released again. But I can't risk the time, the float, and the materials
to make 50 (baaaare minimum) to 100 (true sweet spot) to warrant a re-run. Why? Because 50-100 won't sell. That's reality right now with EBD.

What would happen is 50-100 go up for grabs, done and clearcoated, ready to go... and 20 will sell. CPR is left holding the bag on 30-80 playfields that just sit here, damming up a ton of float that won't budge. Believe me, I'd love to make a couple dozen people happy, but I can't at the expense of tying up a run cycle with a playfield that will not sell out (or near sell out).

NOW THE BAD-ISH NEWS

Truth be told, as of 2014 (start of this year) something serious is happening/changing in the hobby. For 9 years prior, every playfield run we did sold out to none left (except Cyclone & PinBot because we tried an experiment to make double the number of preorders to see what it was like to have stock afterwards - big mistake, 4 years later we STILL have a couple dozen of each left in stock). But beyond those two, every other run sold out in 1-5 months and we could move on, with the Preorder/Request Group having a 95%+ reliability rate. Meaning, if 100 guys had their name in the inbox, 95 bought....

As of 2014, all this years' main runs (not counting the Q1 CNC test-runs of Centaur, Xenon, and Fathom) such as Strikes & Spares, FIRE, and now Star Trek have had a Preorder/Request response rate of around 60% !!! These are new releases, folks. First stab at the hobby, ever. Out of 100 guys, 40 are forfeits or no-shows now. Unheard of 9 years prior. Even Star Trek playfields with custom nacelle LED kits are as "meh" as anything. We're frankly stunned. Barely moving 60 playfields out of 100. It's tipping the books - badly.

Why the sudden shift on these last 3 runs? There is only one thing that has changed in the last year... and (IMHO) millions and millions and millions of dollars in this hobby have suddenly shifted eyes to like 12 new shiny prospects of NIB machines. Just my theory. Original machines have lost their luster suddenly, and the hot thing in pinball is planning bankrolls for huge purchases 1-3 years out. We're feeling it bigtime - and it's changing things around here right now, as Star Trek is the last time we can sustain a 30-40% sitting stock afterwards....

Big changes are coming shortly at CPR - run lengths are being pulled back bigtime, to fit the ACTUAL buying requirements. The Request page is going back to an actual Preorder page - and rules are being put in place for joining the lists. (Full details when changes are launched). But essentially, your email will be a Promise now, and we will be treating it as such - and we equally will owe you a playfield. The old two-way-no-obligation, will soon be a 2-way-promise. Counting heads just doesn't work any more. It's not that simple any more. Before, the counted heads came through. Anyway, we'll leave this part until I get it all posted in the future.

There has been no EBD artwork here since 2009. We borrowed Fabulous Fantasies' overlay silkscreen films (hand cut/drawn by Marti Sperling) back in 2009. They had to be returned. We'd never use them again anyway, as we never completely liked the alignment to the inserts. Even in it's best orientation, there were still non-fits to many playfield features. It was "OK" but not typical CPR results for alignment. PPS most likely has factory films, so we'd be going that route anyway if we had the ~100 names (which would take years to collect - and they'd have to be Promises under the coming new system, for example). That's what it would take for EBD to boot a new release off the CNC. 100+ people, locked in.

As for some liking the "creme" - please know CPR will never run an intentionally aged/antiqued looking playfield. EBD was never "creme" on the playfield. No Bally playfield (or any I can think of from any brand) ever had the base layer done in anything but pure white. All areas under plastics (and the first ink layer down on the wood) has always always always been white. What folks are seeing as "creme" is yellowed/aged white. The reason IPB repros look that way is because Gene gave the screen printers a 25-year-old playfield and said "match these colors"... so they did. NIB back when EBD was released, please trust me that all the areas under the plastics were clean white.

Anyway guys, also know that a re-run bumps a new release down the line another 2-3 months. We've got the next 2-3 years laid out (as Stu said, with all the inserts already here and/or on order to be molded - which takes 5-9 months...plus the wood, inks, and artworks allocated). Sticking in a run from left field can be done from time to time, but it's gotta be a Seller, to take us off course from what playfields we're already doing.

Plastics are relatively easy to re-run, because we can stick them in here and there (and do). We do a new run of plastics every 7-10 days. That's ~40 plastics runs a year. It's no problem for even half of them to be re-runs. And looking at the next couple years, we think they will be. We have a huge back-catalog of nearly 100 different plastics sets CPR has brought from scratch over the last 10 years. So many of them haven't been available in years (and sold out everywhere for ages).

Remember, we did ~30 Xenon playfields in the CNC Trials of Q1 - and it took a ~month to sell 28, and 2 lingered for the longest time...3+ months actually... and they recently just went to Starship Fantasy to sell at York & Expo. The last time we ran Xenon was 2008... and 5 years later we could barely move 30 more.

Maybe one of the other playfield makers can do EBD?

KEVIN
Classic Playfield Reproductions
http://www.classicplayfields.com

#62 9 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

I don't buy what you are claiming on the original colors or your logic for not making more EBD. But you are entitled to your own opinion. I think in the future you may want to do a little more research on your own from more than one source

I'm not one to rabble back-and-forth on here, so I'll only do this post regarding a retort about the white on the playfield. I'm stunned, frankly. With all due respect, white is not our opinion. White is fact. Creme is opinion - and an opinion held by not just you, so this isn't just about one person. But I can see why Stu ends up banging his head against the wall on this unneeded "debate".

ALL, and I repeat ALL playfields start with white as the first color down on the bare wood. The rest of the color layers build on top of that, and areas that are to remain white in the final image are simply never silkscreened over in the later layers. Eight Ball Deluxe was no different. No playfield has ever been base-layered with a creme - ever. It's not how playfields were done. EBD also doesn't have a creme layer (post-white) to make areas creme either. You can see Gene's print from original films - and the 9 color palatte on the apron. It was Gene's screener that screened the white layer as a creme (as I was told by Gene AND Kim - because they asked the screener to colormatch A SAMPLE PLAYFIELD provided).

Gene's screener colormatched 25+ years of yellowing, ie the "nicotine look" - quite frankly, as seen on any other playfield from that era pulled from a game. To claim EBD repros should be printed with creme as the white, is an equal claim that Centaur should be too...or Fathom...or Eight Ball, etc.

Had Gene done the same outsourcing with Centaur, for example, with that same screener - we'd have creme/off-white Centaurs too.

You and Stu can argue over flyers... but I'd rather just go to the original playfields themselves. Not even sample games (although I'm not buying that a switch was done, for the first and last time in history, post-flyer, to switch white to creme on production playfields). Just look at the owned games on the IPDB. Best evidence is to peek under those posts...

image-34.jpgimage-34.jpg

And voila - white (albeit 25 years old) is revealed, surrounded by the "creme".

On all the samples we had back in 2009, every one had circles of near-pure (but aged) white where all the posts had sat, with all exposed areas around the post of distinctly different yellowed "creme". It was as plain to see as the photo provided.

Now I can also go back in time to our pictures from that era, and here is what I dug up:

CIMG0969.JPGCIMG0969.JPG

Now it's not an IPB "creme" repro... but an original extracted playfield from a game. Here, in all it's glory is the alleged "creme" look... the one that Gene's screener followed, and immortalized "creme" as the official EBD base color for so so many folks...

Let's look a little closer...

CIMG0970.JPGCIMG0970.JPG

Ok, so the pics aren't the best, as I was lucky back then to own a 2.4 megapixel camera that used 128MB flash cards... but you can see the white under where the posts sat.

But this last picture tells the tale:

CIMG0971.JPGCIMG0971.JPG

Look very closely at the top right of the original playfield... Mike had sanded away some of the artwork with an orbital sander. He often does this on our "junker" sample in places, in order to get some measurements to key edges. Well you can see the top arch "creme" areas, when sanded off, have edges that reveal the un-yellowed un-spoiled white underneath. The original white. Meaning, if you took sandpaper to any of your creme spots, and started into the ink, you're going to end up sanding off the creme face, and reveal the clean unexposed white underneath.

If it was a creme ink, the color wouldn't change if you scuff off the dirty top. It would be creme from the top face, all the way to the wood.

Anyway, my three cents. I'm done with this topic because I do find it fairly silly. I can't say any more than this to attempt to disprove the IPB creme. But this is why CPR would never run EBD with a creme base layer. No more than we would colormatch a creme Centaur playfield.

So back to the EBD re-run topic:
When we change over our Request/Preorder page soon, I'll see about getting approved for an EBD re-run thru PPS, artwork availability, etc...and then with an official Inbox at the site, we can collect Promises at the site for 8-12 months and see how it pans out for response. ~80+ people would raise some consideration, but 30 is a different story. Can we get approved first, and then measure the market? Fair enough?

Now some EBD REPRO PORN, next post... forgive me.

#63 9 years ago

EBD PORN - might as well put these up from the ol' photo archives circa 2008/2009:

EBD during the silkscreening stages. Enjoy. Maybe this is cruel to post these I dunno.

CIMG0949.JPGCIMG0949.JPG CIMG0950.JPGCIMG0950.JPG CIMG0951.JPGCIMG0951.JPG CIMG0952.JPGCIMG0952.JPG CIMG0953.JPGCIMG0953.JPG CIMG0955.JPGCIMG0955.JPG CIMG0956.JPGCIMG0956.JPG CIMG0957.JPGCIMG0957.JPG CIMG0958.JPGCIMG0958.JPG CIMG0959.JPGCIMG0959.JPG CIMG0960.JPGCIMG0960.JPG CIMG0962.JPGCIMG0962.JPG
#81 9 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Every 8BD I've ever seen had cream GI areas.

Same with everybody. Me included. As shown in the pics I posted from when we made the reproductions. They've all yellowed down over the last 34 years. Lacquer and ink both.

It's really easy - if we re-run this puppy, I'll be using Gene's original Bally films from PPS. So if that day comes, I will return here with pictures of the film(s) laid out. Original films have production specifications on them, color names, Pantone (PMS) numbers...

You're all saying Film #1 will be marked "cream"

I'm saying Film #1 will be marked "white"

We can see the 9 color pallate on IPB's repro's (on the apron). There is only one color for whatever is under the plastics (GI areas) and the white areas of the pool balls, etc. So the films will give the final answer.

We shall see. I *WILL* come back here if we do EBD again. I promise.

Ink/laquer is protected even if under flippers, and stays white. But elsewhere yellows/browns down:

IM003778.jpgIM003778.jpg

Plus here are some others from old photos I took over the years:

IM003279.jpgIM003279.jpg

IM004503.jpgIM004503.jpg

#84 9 years ago
Quoted from Gatecrasher:

a thread from 4 months ago where a guy was selling an NOS EBD playfield. Notice the areas in question have a slight custard look to them.

Quoted from Gatecrasher:

Those areas at the bottom may be yellowed slightly but not as much as the areas under the slingshots. Two different shades meaning they probably were when new too.

The photos of that NOS are horrible, bad uneven lighting, and extremely grainy. However, I took the looks and I think your eyes are playing tricks on you with confirmation bias. If we must use these particular pictures, there is an easy test for them: Drop them into Photoshop and use the Color Sampler tool (deluxe eyedropper) and make sure you use a 3x3 or 5x5 pixel average reading. Since the light is so bad in those pics, you have to take readings nearby each other to be fair.

Well guess what the results were? The white areas of the ball bodies, the banner-ribbons, and the under-plastics GI areas are the same color. Horrible source JPEGS, but +/- 2-3% on CMYK readings in all those areas means they are the same color.

Remember - the IPB (original film) 9-color print confirms there is *no additional spot color for a creme*... So either it's ALL white, or it's ALL cream. Pool balls = slingshot areas. They have to - or there would be a 10th square on IPB's apron. There is no happy medium, as being suggested here. (where out in the artwork, white is white, but underneath plastics there is another ink).

Let's go to the king of source. Christopher Hutchins. The guy that can literally buy $2000+ NOS playfield specimens that are the best and most perfect available, if he has to. HEP does have an EBD restoration gallery, and Chris does show an extremely pristine clearcoated NOS playfield...with proper lighting, and a great camera (as always at HEP):

Does it look like IPB's ?
Or does it look like CPR's ?

Let's see:

113_G.jpg113_G.jpg

I don't see a stitch of "creme" anywhere. And don't get me wrong, I AGREE that creme is part of the EBD color scheme. Apron. Cabinet. Backbox. Totally agreed. It just never ever was made the color for under the plastics on the playfield. Plus, why would they? It's under plastics. You want the optimal GI "glow" and refraction under your plastics.

Here is a great HEP shot contrasting the creme apron to the white NOS playfield:

150_G.jpg150_G.jpg

That's probably an $8000 restore, folks. By the master.

And just for fun, I did a Photoshop mock-up of HEP's photo to change the areas under the plastics to creme. This is the original creme-under-the-plastics look everybody in here is proposing was original. This is what HEP's specimen would look like if you were all correct: (and may I say...yuck)

113_G(mock_creme).jpg113_G(mock_creme).jpg

Regardless of all of this, the Bally films will tell the tale. Hopefully someday.

Ours will look like HEP's above, not IPB's.

REFERENCE: http://christopherhutchins.com/gallery/album144?page=13

#87 9 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

even playboy lacks the pure white.

No white that is 30+ years old is going to be "pure" white. Even playfields stored in the dark for 3 decades are going to have their whites darken down (mainly because of the yellowing of the oil-based lacquer gloss that was put on them as protectant - which was "clearcoat" at the time). Plus the enamel ink itself (usually lead based). Just look at white painted furniture from the 70's and early 80's... it will always (today) be considered "antique white"... almost an ambered ivory color.

But open up a new paint can of white today to paint that furniture... it's going to look like 98 Bright printer paper in comparison. If you want to make it retain it's "old" look, you'll have to buy a tinted paint that's a creme.

But white is white, and was white on day one, 30 years ago. Even the HEP EBD above proves it was white (same color on pool balls vs. under plastics - and undeniably nothing "creme" as claimed... especially when comparing to the apron in the same shot).

Our white ink is brand new enamel straight from the can. So it's brand new clean white. It's like starting over. We're not going to mix anything into our white to make our repro's look "old".

I had somebody PM me a photo (maybe it was you) of a XENON playfield where the posts were removed, and you can clearly see the glossy yellowed clearcoat and darkened white ink cracked off (stuck to the post) revealing the remaining clean white still stuck to the wood underneath. The person who PM'd the photo (photo below) claimed that the photo proved an additional creme ink was PRINTED OVER white - and that now Xenon (yes Xenon) didn't have white under plastics either. So now it's not just EBD ?

Folks, we need to get off this ridiculous belief. Vid was correct above. Playfields are printed with a set of spot colors. White, and always white, went down first. Not creme. Not a darkened/browned/yellowed/custard white. After all the colors go down on top of that white, the white you see remaining (under plastics, and in the artwork) is the same white. They didn't "creme over" the white, explaining why it looks yellowier/creamier/custardier today. It looks yellowier/creamier/custardier today because it's 30 years old. It's the enamel ink deepening + the oil-based lacquer gloss over top yellowing. If it was NOS and well stored, the shift will be minimal to non-existant (like the HEP specimen). If it was in a game, with light and bulbs/warmth - it's more pronounced.

If this Xenon pic doesn't explain it once and for all, I don't know what will. We all know Xenon had nothing to do with creme - so the EBD cabinet/apron color-matching-onto-the-playfield theory doesn't apply here.

733.jpg733.jpg

But this creme you are seeing on this Xenon, I emplore you all, is the same creme you are seeing on EBD playfields. And it looks that way on this Xenon for the same reasons (above) as why it's found on EBD's. It's not because EBD had creme cabinet features or apron - it's because ALL old playfields from that era have their white creamed-up by now, to tiny or large degrees. On the HEP it was tiny. On this Xenon it was LARGE.

185-1.jpg185-1.jpg

IPB's sample EBD playfield given to the screener was likely as bad as this Xenon, and the screener colormatched it as instructed. (Gene and Kim TOLD me this). Remember, since there is only one color before yellow on EBD, and Gene's screener made it creme - the pool balls and such are also creme because of that. Remember, there is no additional spot color layer for a creme on EBD. It's either the whole playfield is done with white, or it's done with creme. Look at IPB's apron.

One last repeat for prosterity (cuz I'm outta pictures and this horse is beat to death): The "creme" on EBD is exactly what you are seeing in the Xenon closeup above. Nothing more, nothing less.

Just think, what if the HEP NOS up above had been the sample to Gene's screener? We wouldn't even be debating about an EBD creme repro today.

#101 9 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So these PFs have never been exposed to light and heat.. they should be similar to what we see under flippers/plastics in 'in the wild' playfields to a large degree.

The claim that "the white of the pool balls and banner flags is slightly brighter than under the plastics - proving there are two different colors" may appear that way on some EBD's and trick your eye into thinking they started that way.

But they started the same white.

The later differences have to do with exposure differences. Under plastics, the white "bakes" from the light/heat of the bulbs. Out on the playfield surface, the white doesn't. GI bulbs can not only deepen the ink/lacquer under plastics, but sometimes (and we have all seen this on some games) around the bulb holes the white bakes to a extreme orange/brown "cooked ring". Don't forget that tungsten filaments (yes - little 44 and 47 bulbs) DO produce UV. Even your average 500 watt work-lights sold at Home Depot and Wal-Mart come with UV-glass faces, and warning stickers nowadays.

All those white GI areas CAN and WILL yellow MORE than white out on the general playfield. The laquer and ink reacts worse to heat/light from the bulbs (accelerated), than just "general light" through the playfield glass.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Where I think you had failed to convey to people is clarifying the # of colors that were laid down

9 colors on EBD. No more, no less.

I banged on this fact ad nauseum. Maybe you didn't see those posts way up above:

Post #84 "Remember - the IPB (original film) 9-color print confirms there is *no additional spot color for a creme*... So either it's ALL white, or it's ALL cream. Pool balls = slingshot areas."

Post #81 "We can see the 9 color pallate on IPB's repro's (on the apron). There is only one color for whatever is under the plastics (GI areas) and the white areas of the pool balls, etc."

Post #62 "You can see Gene's print from original films - and the 9 color palatte on the apron. It was Gene's screener that screened the white layer as a creme (as I was told by Gene AND Kim) "

Post #51 (photo showing IPB repro from original Bally films, with 9-color palatte shown on apron)

Post #42 (Gatecrasher's even better IPB repro photo, with 9-color palatte shown on apron)

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