(Topic ID: 210376)

Wild Fyre: No score displays, (almost) everything else working

By Necromancyr

3 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 57 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by frunch
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

20180320_220710 (resized).jpg
20180222_215502 (resized).jpg
20180222_215450 (resized).jpg
IMG_1034 (resized).JPG

There are 57 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 3 years ago

I was recently given a Wild Fyre by a friend due to a death in their family (and lack of desire to repair the machine by other family members). I've gone through the MPU-100 repair document (at TechDose) and been fairly successful in resurrecting the machine so far. The issue I'm having is the displays (LCDs?) for score and similar info don't light up at all - not even a flicker.

Details/symptoms:
- I get 6 flashes of the diagnostic LED, then it stays lit at a low level. After the 6th flash, there is a continuous 'noise' - almost an electronic hum - that is constant. However, I can run through diagnostics using the self-test button and everything I can test without the displays seem to work fine (e.g., sound test works, lights blink properly, solenoids all fire appropriately, etc.)
- No fuses appear to be blown.
- The battery is removed. I have not replaced it with a battery pack as of yet.

Any thoughts or direction people may have would be a HUGE help. There are one or two minor items that also need to be fixed (e.g., one of the kickers doesn't activate when the ball is in the hole, but activates during solenoid testing) - but if I can get the above fixed it really seems to just have 'minor' issues.

#2 3 years ago

Have you checked the display fuse? It's a 250ma fast blow fuse that's located behind the backlight board - see the below link. The fuse is under the red card on the bottom right:

http://ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2783&picno=26871&zoom=1

#3 3 years ago

It appears, at least at first check, that my power supply may be wonky. I'm getting nothing on the 230V test point - which I realized I never checked earlier (jumped the gun, thinking things would work). All fuses test as intact (i.e., have continuity) so...now I'm thinking by rectifier board may have some issues on the 230V portion of it.

Given that a replacement is only $65 or so, I'm wondering if it's worth just replacing or an easy fix - what I'm not certain of is how to diagnosis and confirm this is the origin of all issues (e.g., the 230V and 190V TP's being flat on the Solenoid board as well).

#4 3 years ago

Unplug the solenoid board and check the voltages on the rectifier again. The regulators on the solenoid board can sometimes fail and mess with the input voltage.

#5 3 years ago

Given I'm testing everything right (i.e., completely unplugged the solenoid board, left everything else plugged in - no LED flashes, but all the bulb-based lights lit up) - 13.5VDC on the second test point on the rectifier board vs. 0.8VDC with everything plugged in.

...also, no sound - which makes sense since all power goes through the solenoid board before the rest of the cabinet, correct?

#6 3 years ago

Unplug J1 and J3 on the rectifier board. Look for any burnt pins. What do you have power wise at the test points? Test point 2 should have 230vdc. That is the power for displays. Non LED. For reference

Tp 1 = 5.4vdc
Tp 2 = 230 vdc
Tp 3 = 12 vdc
Tp 4 = 7.3 vAC
Tp 5 = 43 vdc.

If you are not getting the 7 th flash you may not have the 43 v on tp 5 or there is an issue with zero cross on the MPU.

#7 3 years ago

Getting the followiing:
TP1: 5.6vdc
TP2: 0.8vdc
TP3: 13.4vdc
TP4: 7.0vac
TP5: 44.6vdc

And I think I am getting the seventh flash - if I'm reading the flashes right. Basically, per the repair doc, I was thinking the first flash was the mentioned flicker. I'm not even seeing that but getting a flash, pause for 2-3 seconds, then 6 additional flashes about a second apart, then the game appears to be in attract mode (hard to determine 100% w/out the score displays working). There is a 'ping' sound (like a relay firing) between flash 4 and 5 - the flashes are so fast, that's when I'd place it. Could be simultaneous with the 5th flash.

No burnt pins on the rectifier or solenoid boards it appears.

These are the rest of my test point values as of now (everything fully connected)

Solenoid Board
TP1: 5.26vdc
TP2: - no reading/ground
TP3: 5.0vdc
TP4: - no reading/ground
TP5: 12.97vdc
TP6: 5.0vdc
TP7: 5.0vdc

Lamp Driver:
TP1: 5.26
TP2: Grounding correctly
TP3: 5.26

MPU:
TP1: 5.26vdc
TP2: 13.0vdc
TP3: 22.1vdc
TP4: Grounding correctly
TP5: 5.16vdc
TP6: 11.18 vdc

SB100 Sound Board (checks out per the techdose page on the SB100)
TP1: 5.14vdc
TP2: 2.58vdc
TP3: 2.56vdc
TP4: 0.016vdc (Ground)
TP5: 2.57vdc
TP6: 5.09vdc
TP7: 12.9vdc
TP8: Can't locate the test point...
TP9: 9.44vdc

#9 3 years ago

You wont get the 7th flash with 5V on TP 5. The 43vdc is required for the MPU zero cross detector. It is the 7th flash.

You are going to need to service the rectifier board. Looks like Bridge Rectifier 3 is bad that is the 43V. The 230V section runs thru a series of diodes that act like Bridge Rectifier. One of the diodes is probably bad or the resistor is shorted out.

Once you get the rectifier board with correct voltages then you can move to the SDB. If the SDB is original it will probably need new caps at C23 and C26 at the minimum to run reliably.

#10 3 years ago

I apologize - mistyped data off the sheet I have where I've captured everything. TP5 on the rectifier board is at 44.6vdc. Given that is working, it seems like it's the 230V section is bad - guess I'm going to be digging into the schematics to test that section. This should be a learning experience.

I was guessing the caps on the SDB would need replacing - C23 and C26 are the large ones, correct? That seems like a straightforward fix.

*EDIT* So, CR1 diode appears to be shot, given I'm testing it right. Guess that could be it. Fingers crossed I have a suitable replacement to see if it's a single point fix before buying an entire kit.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

guess I'm going to be digging into the schematics to test that section. This should be a learning experience.

There's not much to it, just the four diodes (CR1-4) and their accompanying resistor (R3) on the side of the board. Just replace them all, can't hurt.

#12 3 years ago

Yup. Looks like one of the diodes is shot. Now I just need to get replacement parts. No real way to order small numbers of parts is there?

#14 3 years ago

Thanks! Was looking on there and DigiKey. Bit overwhelming! Want to make sure I order the right parts to fix/maintain things without ordering things needlessly - or having to go back and get a small order again for one or two small items.

#15 3 years ago

Well, as an update - replacing one of the diodes (the definitely broken one) did nothing. Well, that's not true. I'm getting ~12vdc on TP2 now - and the diodes all test as fine. So....somewhat annoyed. I'm going to take it out again and try replacing everything else in that pathway and hopefully it'll resolve the issue. Not being able to take out the board without taking out the transformer is a PITA though, I must say.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

Well, as an update - replacing one of the diodes (the definitely broken one) did nothing. Well, that's not true. I'm getting ~12vdc on TP2 now - and the diodes all test as fine. So....somewhat annoyed. I'm going to take it out again and try replacing everything else in that pathway and hopefully it'll resolve the issue. Not being able to take out the board without taking out the transformer is a PITA though, I must say.

When you replace one, might as well replace all 4. Try testing voltage on each side of R3, see if it's any different.

I usually just replace them with it all still wired into the machine :/

#17 3 years ago

Set your meter to ac. Put the leads on E5 and E6. What do you have?

#18 3 years ago

Yeah, I'm not that good at soldering and the placement means I'm leaning over around the side and it's at the back of the machine.

Is there a schematic available for the AS-2518-18? There seemed to be solder overflow between the one diode and another - it looked connected as part of the backside of the board itself so I wasn't concerned, but want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding how things are connected.

Also, shocked myself once . Lesson learned that the switch doesn't totally kill power to the PSU.

#19 3 years ago

The check lug 8 and 9 on transformer. You should get about 180 ac.

I would make sure the transformer is good.

Could you post a picture?

#20 3 years ago

Yes the schematic are on IPDB.com.

#21 3 years ago

OK, found the schematic in Dracula's schematic file - it's not in the WildFyre one for some reason.

Anyway, here's what I got so far:
- E5 is 180vac & E6 is 13vac
- R3 is 13vdc, both sides

Then I tested vDC on each side of the diodes and got (all vdc):
- CR1: 13/0.13
- CR2: 13/13
- CR3: 12.1/0
- CR4: 0/0

I'll have to pull a few things apart to get at the lugs and figure out what's what - it's behind a shield in the WildFyre. In looking at things, some wiring could be shot as well from age - that will be fun to replace .

#22 3 years ago

How are you checking ? With ac the test would just give one reading. It shouldn’t matter what lead is on the lug. Your not checking to ground?

#23 3 years ago

Removing the entire unit is easy - 4 screws for the board and 4 - 6 screws for the transformer.

IMG_1034 (resized).JPG

#24 3 years ago

Ok, so...had a longer post but deleted it as I realized what I was testing in looking at images.

Yeah, the two AC lines/test points are at different voltages. One side of the transformer (white and green wire, goes to E5 I believe, tested it on the fuse) is 180vac. The other side (green wire, goes to E6 I believe) is at ~13vac. I'm guessing these are the right lugs, had to reverse engineer since there are no visible numbers on my transformer. (used this: http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/as-2518-18-wiring.htm).

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

Removing the entire unit is easy - 4 screws for the board and 4 - 6 screws for the transformer.

Yeah, the issue is pulling it in and out to test. I don't have a test rig setup unfortunately, so in the machine is it at this point.

Also, due to being new I have hit my post limit. I'll check per the below post and update. :/ Thank you all for the help with this - it's a HUGE help and I'm learning a ton.

EDIT: VAC between E5/E6 is 187. (with and without fuse, tested from front of board) (Note, solenoid/voltage regulator board is disconnected per earlier posts to limit potential area of failure so that could be why it's a bit high). Also, should I be testing TP2 differently on this than the others test points (i.e., to ground)?

20180222_215450 (resized).jpg
20180222_215502 (resized).jpg

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

Ok, so...had a longer post but deleted it as I realized what I was testing in looking at images.
Yeah, the two AC lines/test points are at different voltages. One side of the transformer (white and green wire, goes to E5 I believe, tested it on the fuse) is 180vac. The other side (green wire, goes to E6 I believe) is at ~13vac. I'm guessing these are the right lugs, had to reverse engineer since there are no visible numbers on my transformer. (used this: http://stevekulpa.net/pinball/as-2518-18-wiring.htm).

When measuring AC, you should put one lead on E5 and one on E6. Then you will get a single AC voltage reading. Measure it like this, and then measure again with F2 removed

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

When measuring AC, you should put one lead on E5 and one on E6. Then you will get a single AC voltage reading. Measure it like this, and then measure again with F2 removed

Then if you don’t get 180 vac do the same thing on lug 8 and 9 on the transformer. This will determine if the issue is on the rectifier in the wiring or at the transformer.

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Then if you don’t get 180 vac do the same thing on lug 8 and 9 on the transformer. This will determine if the issue is on the rectifier in the wiring or at the transformer.

How do you tell lug numbers on the transformer? I've never been able to figure it out if they're not directly labeled

#29 3 years ago

All you need for bench testing is AC power to J2 pins 6 and 7.

#30 3 years ago
Quoted from oldschoolbob:

All you need for bench testing is AC power to J2 pins 6 and 7.

I hooked a power cord up to a switch and connector with just those two pins so I can easily plug the transformer (or the whole head) in without having to assemble the game

#31 3 years ago

So, I can post again (may not be able to after this for another period of time - I'm triggering the newbie post restrictions).

VAC between E5/E6 is 187. (with and without fuse, tested from front of board) Note, solenoid/voltage regulator board is disconnected per earlier posts to limit potential area of failure so that could be why it's a bit higher than standard. Based on this, seems the 180vac is correct and getting from the transformer to the board. Also, other boards aren't screwing things up since they aren't connected.

Next step is replacing all the diodes and the resistor I guess...since it has to be that circuit that's screwed up if I'm understanding things correctly?

Added pictures of a few things (above) as well. Can provide more if it would be helpful.

RE: testing outside the machine, I don't have a way to safely connect AC power to the pins w/out risking the board (or myself) using a jury-rigged alligator clip setup. So, at this moment, I'm stuck with this approach until I get a connector I can wire up as a safe way to connect power to it on the bench.

Also, should I be testing TP2 differently on this than the others test points (i.e., to ground)?

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

So, I can post again (may not be able to after this for another period of time - I'm triggering the newbie post restrictions).
VAC between E5/E6 is 187. (with and without fuse, tested from front of board) Note, solenoid/voltage regulator board is disconnected per earlier posts to limit potential area of failure so that could be why it's a bit higher than standard. Based on this, seems the 180vac is correct and getting from the transformer to the board. Also, other boards aren't screwing things up since they aren't connected.
Next step is replacing all the diodes and the resistor I guess...since it has to be that circuit that's screwed up if I'm understanding things correctly?
Added pictures of a few things (above) as well. Can provide more if it would be helpful.
RE: testing outside the machine, I don't have a way to safely connect AC power to the pins w/out risking the board (or myself) using a jury-rigged alligator clip setup. So, at this moment, I'm stuck with this approach until I get a connector I can wire up as a safe way to connect power to it on the bench.
Also, should I be testing TP2 differently on this than the others test points (i.e., to ground)?

every test point except TP3 is DC, so testing to ground is correct. AC needs to be measured differently. Except in this case the other side of TP4 is connected to ground anyway, so measuring TP4's AC using one lead on ground still works. Neither E5 or E6 is connected to ground though, so it doesn't work there.

One other thing to check is that you actually have 180VAC at the diodes. The non-banded sides for CR1+2 should have 180VAC between them. If you have it there, but not the proper DC, then the diodes pretty much have to be the problem (unless there's some short or something somewhere).

#33 3 years ago

Thanks for the help/insight on the TPs.

Just checked the diodes and the non-banded (upper side, in my case) only has 2.2vac so, seems SOMETHINGS screwed there (short of a short).

I've done tests to check for shorts across that circuit though and from what I've tested so far there doesn't APPEAR to be anything shorting out...but when I pull out the board I'll some more testing there.

Thank you all again for the help. Once I get some time over the weekend to do the reworking, I'll post again! Fingers crossed!

#34 3 years ago

Take a resistance reading from E5 to the non banded side of CR1 and E6 to CR2. They should have continuity, but apparently they don't if you've got different voltages. Could be a corroded fuse holder or bad trace

#35 3 years ago

From looking at the pictures those fuse holders look suspect. They go bad and I have had them look good and had no continuity. [email protected] sells a complete kit to rebuild that board. I would just buy a new board too. Old board has a few issues that should be addressed and modified for reliable operation and to reduce the loads on the connectors.

#36 3 years ago

I'm actually leaning towards that. I've seen replacements for $60ish (or $80 prewired), which would 100% eliminate the component as an issue. One thing I've been having trouble finding is a replacement for the actual transformer - or how much the transformer would even run. Would be nice to just completely replace that section and go from there.

(Also - I'm not verified and was locked out of this thread earlier because it's 'hot'. So, lack of response by me may be due to that. (Anyone want to verify me?))

#37 3 years ago

Wow. Didn’t realize the Pinside PD was out in such force.

I use to modify those board and rebuild them. The grounds on the original board should be modified. The connectors should be replaced, factory BR are weak and should be replaced, fuse clips get abused by the heat and loose tension. by the time I desoldered everything and cleaned up the board to modify, I could have [email protected] kit assembled and in the game. It looks good too! I don’t know what there price is for assembled board. PBR sells Pinhead Rectifier. I have used them also. Very Nice!!! 70 bucks I believe. It comes with new female connectors as well!

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

I'm actually leaning towards that. I've seen replacements for $60ish (or $80 prewired), which would 100% eliminate the component as an issue. One thing I've been having trouble finding is a replacement for the actual transformer - or how much the transformer would even run. Would be nice to just completely replace that section and go from there.
(Also - I'm not verified and was locked out of this thread earlier because it's 'hot'. So, lack of response by me may be due to that. (Anyone want to verify me?))

They don't really sell replacement transformers. They rarely fail, so there's not much of a market. Any you find are going to be used and expensive. Plus, you've verified the input voltage is good, so it's not your issue. Replacing the rectifier board is a perfectly. Good way to go though if you don't mind the cost.

3 weeks later
#39 3 years ago

So...rectifier board replaced! Test points are coming back with good voltage (bit high if anything, but close to what's appropriate)

Unfortunately same problems are still occurring. I need to do a bit more testing, but there's alot of flicker on the displays and they don't seem to be fully displaying correctly. I've rechecked all my test points and they look as follows. From what I can see, all looks fine (maybe a bit high on certain ones) except for the Solenoid Driver TP3, which seems to be grounding or close to it. Not sure why that's occurring unless the two large capacitors on it are dead and need replacing... The solenoids do not seem to be firing, however. The did before I replaced the rectifier...which has me worried.

I do NOT have a battery hooked up in my machine yet - that's my next thing to do. Didn't think I'd need it and not certain if that's causing any issues.

Any ideas would be welcome.

Rectifier
TP1 6.12
TP2 251.6
TP3 15.65
TP4 (AC) 7.14
TP5 45.8

Lamp Driver
TP1 5.35
TP2 0
TP3 5.35

MPU
TP1 5.01
TP2 15.56
TP3 22.6
TP4 0
TP5 5
TP6 13.8

SB100
TP1 5.05
TP2 2.6
TP3 2.6
TP4 0
TP5 2.61
TP6 5.12
TP7 15.56
TP8 N/A
TP9 9.77

Solenoid
TP1 5.32
TP2 190.7
TP3 0.4
TP4 250.8
TP5 15.5
TP6 0.13
TP7 0.24

#40 3 years ago

Has anything been done with the solenoid board? Recapping?

#41 3 years ago

I don't believe so. Was considering doing it - but haven't yet. Was hoping things would work then I could do improvements/updates .

Still getting the odd constant buzzing noise as well from the speaker (that's controllable via the volume knob). Need to get another speaker to test and see if it's the speaker or something else.

#42 3 years ago

TP3 might just be a connector issue. From the schematics it look like it's driven by J3-25 from J3-13 (which there is voltage at). I'd reflow the connectors to start, and reflow the big caps too. Can't hurt to replace them either though. I've seen the displays do some weird stuff even when the voltages for them were right because C26 was bad.

I doubt the buzzing is the speaker, probably sound board issues or bad caps.

#43 3 years ago

TP3 on the driver board not getting voltage is probably a connector issue. TP1 and TP3 on the board should be tied together. This will reduce strain on the connector. So the game at this point still get to the 6th flash and will not boot? Unplug the sound card at J5 on the MPU and try to boot the game.

#44 3 years ago

Possible a stupid question - how do you reflow the connectors? Just reheat and possible add some solder? (i.e., does reflow mean resolder?)

Re: Sound board - The game sounds actually work - it's a buzz/noise that's 'behind' all the normal sounds and is constant. So it's not a broken cone in the speaker, but could be something shorting somewhere possibly.

Re: TP1/TP2 on Driver Board - I read about the connection and tying them together. Always nervous about rewiring something like that - but I'll do that as well after rechecking the connectors.

Re: Flashes - I am getting all of the flashes I believe. One quick flash upon turning on, a pause, then the 6 flashes after - so it appears to fully boot. I'll try disconnecting the sound card and see what happens as well and report back later this evening.

#45 3 years ago

Reflow is mostly just melt each solder connection and let it solidify again to fix any potential cracks that may have formed. I usually add a bit of new solder to help it along.

If the displays are showing stuff then the board must be booting.

#46 3 years ago

Woo-hoo! Seems it wasn't working because of my own stupidity. I didn't fully connect the one larger connector (smaller pins) on the right side of the solenoid board. Reseating it with a bit more force fixed the solenoid board problem completely! Thanks for the pointer on where to look! Still going to take the board out and do the TP1-TP3 jumpering once I have time to improve stability.

So now, three things to fix:
- Buzz noise from the sound board. (Which may be the capacitors on the sound board).
- The left two score displays seem to have errors. The upper left only shows the first digit (furthest left). The Lower left shows every digit except for the first one.
- One kicker (?) hole doesn't fire when the ball goes in it but DOES activate during the solenoid test.

Overall, I'm now thrilled. The score displays have me a bit worried that it may be expensive fixes.

One other question - what's the best way to take out the playfield on one of these? I lifted mine briefly, but it did't seem to have some way to prop it up safely. Am I correct in that it needs to be completely removed and placed onto it's side on something to be worked on?

#47 3 years ago
Quoted from Necromancyr:

- The left two score displays seem to have errors. The upper left only shows the first digit (furthest left). The Lower left shows every digit except for the first one.

Try plugging in only one display at a time and see if any act different.

Quoted from Necromancyr:- One kicker (?) hole doesn't fire when the ball goes in it but DOES activate during the solenoid test.

Probably the switch isn't registering

Quoted from Necromancyr:

One other question - what's the best way to take out the playfield on one of these? I lifted mine briefly, but it did't seem to have some way to prop it up safely. Am I correct in that it needs to be completely removed and placed onto it's side on something to be worked on?

There should usually be a prop rod on the right hand side. They're not easy to take out, although sometimes you can just flip them over

#48 3 years ago

Thank you. Will try that with the displays. Figured it was the switch on the one kicker - and now I can try to get under the board if I can find the prop rod!

One other question - battery pack wise, did I do this correctly? The diode band is on the positive side of the 'first' battery slot, based on what I've read in a few posts/guides. My brain is having some issue parsing this though - basically which direction is blocked, how to install appropriately, etc.

20180320_220710 (resized).jpg

#49 3 years ago

That looks right. You want to keep the board from 'charging' the batteries by sending current into the positive end. There should be a + and - labelled on the board to hook it to

#50 3 years ago

Great, one more thing done!

Tested the displays and it's definitely the displays themselves. Pulled one and did a quick check of the resistors highlighted in the repair guide and they all seem good (unfortunately). So, time to test all the resistors, the transistors, and reflow the connectors.

Also found a repair/test guide from Stern that has you shorting things (http://www.papinball.com/tips/Stern_Classic_SB_15.pdf) on the transistors...but not exactly sure how to do that while it's connected without either (a) electrocuting myself or (b) accidentally frying something.

EDIT: Make that two things done!

Reseated the connector on one display and it's working fine. Reflowed the connector on the other one and it was working except for one segment not coming up on anything. Per the repair manual I tried shorting one of the transistors and...get this...it started working completely right after that. Turned the machine off and back on...working fine. I don't get HOW this fixed it but...it did.

Now just the audio and one kicker switch and it's fully functional! (Once I clean up the playfield a bit and protect it somehow).

Very exciting!

There are 57 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside