What would cause the feature lights on my Stern Wild Fyre to flicker? I have a good solid 5.4 volts at the lights on the playfield. When I connect a test light to the 5.4 volt line and ground I don't get the flicker.

See the video - the test light doesn't flicker but the lights in the background are flickering.

The rectifier board is new and all new connectors and headers on all the boards including the light driver board. I swapped the driver board with a known good game (Bally 8 Ball) and it still flickers.

Could a shorted or bad bulb be causing this?

Thanks

Bob

Anyone have an idea?

I've disconnected all the feed lines to the feature lights - 5.4 volt line to the back-box and the 5.4 volt line to the playfield. Then I put the game in light test mode. When I connect my test light to the feed line and to ground I get a solid on light. When I connect to any line going to the driver board I get a flickering test light.

Because I get the flicker on the original board and the 8 Ball board and the only light in use is the test light I'm thinking a bad connector to the driver board.

Any idea what connector to look at?

Thanks

Bob

Something else I just noticed - when I turn it on it boots up and plays it's little tune and goes into attract mode. Then after a couple of seconds it boots up again. Sometimes even a third time. Then it's fine and everything works. Could this be related?

Could something on the MPU be causing the flickering feature lights?

Bob

Thanks Quench, Glad you stopped by.

Other than flickering (and a couple of lamps out) all the lamps seem to be functioning correctly - attract and gameplay.

I don't think the problem is with the driver board - I have the same problem after I switched it with a driver board from my 8 Ball.

I have 4 meters but I don't think any of them measure frequency. Maybe I need to get one - What would you suggest?

I was about to go down to the shop to swap the MPU with the 8 ball.

I'll let you know what I find.

Bob

I'm in the shop - I switched the MPU's. The 8 Ball MPU booted - just one time. Not twice like the other board.

The lamps came on (some are still disconnected) but they don't flicker.

Looks like the problem is on the MPU.

I re-connected the remaining feature lights - they don't all work in attract but seem to all work in test mode AND they don't flicker.

I picked up a cheap meter a while back (because it has a loud beep for continuity test). It has an "F" mode. Don't know what it's for - never used it.

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That cheap meter doesn't want to read ohms. So I used my Radio Shack meter. (but it don't have "F" or "Hz")
R21 = 36.45
R22 = 4.79
R23 = .998

I'll try to hook up something to use the "Cx" on the cheap meter.

Be right back

I don't think it likes Cx mode either (but it's good for a loud beep when I'm testing continuity).

I turned the meter to "F" and got 32.8 with nothing connected. Then I connected jumpers to C17 and still got 32.8 - see photo.

Then I turned the meter off and tryed again - this time all I get is 1. - connected or not.

I may have a new C16 and C17 (I'll check tomorrow).

Anything else I can check - Ed is on vacation till next week and I don't have a new 555.

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I just checked and I do have a new C16 - It's much smaller - part number cpr-0.1 uf - 250 V-J from GPE.

Tomorrow I'll change it and see if it makes a difference.

Thanks Quench.

Bob

This is what I I have:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CPR-0.1uF-250V-J

When I worked on my friends Meteor I noticed the C16 was cracked and I replaced it (I got two from GPE).

I don't know who worked on it before. But his name was Bill - he signed it on the back.

What would be a decent meter with frequency for a novice like me?

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I replaced the C16. No change. Lights still flicker. When it booted it stayed on for some time then re-booted. After the second boot I counted and it took about 20 seconds and re-booted again.

Then I tried it again. First boot it stayed on for about 50 seconds - then re-booted. Stayed on for about 10 seconds - then re-booted. Stayed on for about 20 seconds - then re-booted. Then I started a game. I played the entire game and it stayed on (still had flickering lights). About 20 seconds after the game ended it re-booted again.

I ordered a new 555 timer but it'll be a week or so before I can get it. (GPE is closed for the holidays)

I couldn't try the old C16 in the Cx socket because one leg broke off when I removed it. But I did try the new one before I installed it. The new one just read "1". The only reason I use that meter is for the loud tone on continuity test.

I looked at the meter from China. Several things wrong there - I don't do well on Ebay, it'll take a few weeks to arrive, and the display looks small (hard for these old eyes to see). On the other hand the Kline meter is local and I could get it tomorrow. My only concern is if it will measure the frequency's I need for Pinball games.

Bob

Thanks guys - I thought you'd all be out celebrating the new year. I guess we're getting older.

The only time it seems slow to respond is when the ball drops into the "collect bonus" hole. One time it stuck there. But usually it works fine. I thought it was just a dirty switch.

Now it's booting so often that it's hard to get into test mode - it re-boots as soon as I press the test button. One time I got all the way to switch test and noticed "0" in the display before it re-booted. I don't think any switches are stuck. They all seem to work during game play.

What is strange (to me) is it don't re-boot during game play. It will play the entire game - when the game ends then it will re-boot.

After I changed C16 and installed the board I didn't connect the sound board. (too difficult to plug in and I figured I would be removing the board again anyway.) So, no, the sound board connected makes no difference.

I have been having problems lately installing new connectors but I was very careful when I installed these. (not saying I didn't mess up though).

You said "try with the switches unplugged" - That would be J2 and J3?

I hate re-setting chips but I'll try that.

I'd like to try new PIA's but I'm out (used the last ones on the Magic game) and GPE is still out of stock (has been for a long time). The only other place I can find them is Marco and he's stupid expensive on chips.

Thanks for the input on the meter - Andrew, I think I saw you using that meter on a video (long time ago). I wasn't sure which one it was - My Radio Shack is slow on auto ranging also so that don't bother me. And I need the auto-off because I always forget to turn stuff off. Does it work well for frequencies? Does it measure MHz?

Thanks guys for helping tonight - hope you all have a great New Year.

Bob

It's 4 AM and I can't sleep with this problem in my head. Yesterday I changed the MPU with the 8 Ball and it booted fine and the lights didn't flicker. So I don't think it's the connectors or switches are bad (but I will dis-connect them anyway and try.) I'm beginning to think PIA's are the culprit. Maybe I'll switch them with the 8 Ball. Seems a lot of them are going bad lately. I need to get a handful somewhere.

Tomorrow I'll try again (in the afternoon) I gotta get some sheep.

Bob

I pulled off J2 and J3 - First thing I noticed was it don't re-boot anymore. But the lights still flicker. Actually I thought the lights would all be off with the connectors off.

Then I tried the self test but that don't work with the connectors removed.

Next I'll try switching PIA's with the 8 Ball.

I switched the PIA's with the 8 Ball. I also checked the SW 33 and it checked OK.

Put the board back in with only J1 and J4 connected. It booted then booted again. After 20 seconds it booted a third time. Lights still flicker.

I guess the old PIA's were OK.

What else could be the problem? Could the 555 be causing this?

I gotta get a frequency meter.

I just swapped U9's. No change but it did stay on longer before it re-booted.

I took some photos - maybe you can see something I'm missing.

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back of board:

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I gave up for tonight. The temperature outside is 2*F and it's a little chilly in my shop. Tomorrow I try the Stern MPU in the 8 ball and see how it works.

Actually the Stern MPU appears to be in better condition than the 8 ball.

When I switched IC's I looked over the sockets and they looked in good condition.

One thing I haven't changed is the C17. Do you think it's worth changing? I have one in stock but it's axial - not disc. But it is 0.01 uF - 100 V. Ceramic.

Tomorrow I'll order the 555 from GPE and probably the meter barakandl suggested.

Anything else you think I might need?

8 Ball Photos:

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I just ordered the Mastech. Hopefully it'll be here soon. Let me know how you like the Zotek. That's a good price. I thought about getting both.

I have a logic probe - same one as Terry's. I'm not real good at using it yet but I'm learning.

I put the Stern MPU into the 8 Ball (with Wild Fyre ROM's). It booted then after a couple of minutes it booted again. Then again. The 8 Ball light driver board is in the Stern so I couldn't tell if the lights flicker - but I suspect they would.

I have the MPU on the bench right now so I think I'll change the C17 next. I'm sure the problem is on the board. If C17 don't fix it the only thing left would be the 555. I'll order one tonight when Ed is back. What else could cause this problem?

I'll let you know if a new C17 helps.

Bob

I replaced the C17 - didn't help.

Parts and meter are ordered - but probably won't be here till next week. I feel I'm in the dark without measuring the 555.

The NVRAMs are both new - and I have spares.

I can change out the ROM's, RAM, and NVRAM but if they were faulty wouldn't that keep it from booting?

Previously you said "I'm getting a feeling the 555 timer circuit may not be the issue". Why don't you think it's the problem? We've changed almost everything else.

I have a good 12 volt power supply that I connect to an old solenoid driver board for bench testing MPUs. (5 volts and 12 volts) (Works really good). I also have a 25 volt DC transformer to connect to TP3 to get the seventh flash. If I connected all that up to the MPU could it replicate the re-booting problem?

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I didn't get a chance to get to the shop today (other errands to do). Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

I must have mislead you about J2 and J3. The game does re-boot with J2 and J3 disconnected. As a mater of fact they haven't been connected since I was asked to remove them several attempts ago. (Back when I noticed I still have the flicker even when they are disconnected). Maybe when I replaced the PIA's I didn't leave it on long enough to re-boot.

Something I noticed when I looked closely at the photos above. Pins 23 and 24 of U2 appear to have solder on them. I wonder if they have been repaired? Also there is a small chip in the top of U6.

My next step will be to switch ROM's with the 8 Ball. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks you all for sticking with me on this - it's been a tough one. Hopefully we'll resolve this soon.

Bob

The two pins on U2 have been repaired. See photo.

I switched the ROMs from the 8 Ball. I also replaced the NVRAM with another new one that I have.

Before I re-installed the board I checked R11 - My cheap meter shows 85.5 ohms. In real life R11 don't look burnt. It's just a brown resistor.

I also inspected the sockets at U2 and U6. The U2 socket has been replaced before. I've never seen this type of socket before. Do you think it needs to be replaced?

Then I re-installed the board - Lights still flicker and it took about 2 minutes before it started re-booting. The it re-boots about every 30 seconds.

I now have the Stern board in with 8 Ball ROM's, PIA's, CPU and a new NVRAM. The only thing not 8 Ball is U7. I'll switch that next.

Can the test's on U8 be performed on the bench?

Bob

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I just switched U7 with the 8 Ball - exact same results as last time. Now all socket'ed chips are from the 8 Ball.

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Getting the 8 Ball back up won't be easy. The light driver board is still in the Wild Fyre - The MPU is on the bench with no chips in it. All the 8 Ball chips are in the Wild Fyre. But I can probe the 4514 chips in the Wild Fyre. I'll do that when I get back to the shop along with turning off all the dip switches.

If that doesn't work I think I'll connect my bench tester to perform the CPU and the 5101 tests. Hopefully I can replicate the re-booting problem on the bench.

We have guests coming this evening so I doubt I'll get any shop time.

Back in the shop now. I moved all dip switches to off. Same results re-booting after a minute and still flickering lights.

I connected my logic probe to the light driver board (on this board TP1 is 5 volts and TP2 is ground). I got a bright LO and a dim HI. Occasionally I'd get a pulse but not consistent. I tried set on TTL and CMOS. same results. I tried on two different chips. Same results.

I just tested again and got the same results. The pulse will flash a couple of times then stop - then flash a few more times then stop. Very strange.

Does this tell you anything?

The new 555 arrived today but no meter yet.

Bob

Looks like 4514 pin 1 is connected to J4 pin 13 (strobe 1). And that goes to J1 pin 11 (strobe 1) on the MPU. I probed the connector window on the MPU and get LO and pulse. Then I went back to LDA J4 - pin 13 and got the same. Then I re-checked 4514 pin and now I get LO and a constant pulse. Maybe my probe wasn't making good contact before.

So now 4514 IS showing LO and pulse.

Bob

I feel much safer connecting to R139 rather than pin 40.

My plan is to connect a jumper to R139, then power up and boot. Then connect the other end of the jumper to TP5. We'll see if that stops the re-booting.

Bob

I connected a jumper to R139, turned it on and waited for it to boot up. Then connected the other end to TP5. Waited about 1 minute and it re-booted. Then about 10 seconds later it booted again. Then about another minute it booted again.

By the way I looked at the original Wild Fyre LDA and TP1 seems to go to ground. The board in the game is from 8 Ball (Bally). On there TP2 is ground.

The only games I have at this time are the 8 Ball and Wild Fyre. I wish Amazon would hurry and deliver my meter.

I think tomorrow I'll hook it up to my test bench.

I now have new 555's. Do you think I should replace the old one?

Bob

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Voltage at U11 pin 18 is 0.2 MV. Logic probe indicates LO and no pulse. No change when it re-boots.

I forgot to tell you before - no I don't have a ROM programmer. Only twice have I ever needed new ROMs.

Bob

I was going to pull the board to perform the tests that barakandl suggested back in post 41 but I just noticed the pins are accessible from the top. I'll test those tomorrow in the game.

I don't see the OD pin - I did find the R/W pin (pin 20). I think the OD pin is marked OE on the NVRAM board (pin 18). Am I correct?

Thanks

Bob

I tried the Stern MPU in the 8 Ball last week - It re-booted just like in the Wild Fyre.

I haven't hooked it up to the bench tester yet. I got everything out ready for testing (5 Volts, 12 Volts, and 25 Volts). I should be able to get all 7 flashes on the bench. But I thought I'd try Andrews tests in the game first. Tomorrow I check the 5101 and TP5 and report back.

Amazon says my meter should be delivered tomorrow - we'll see.

Bob

It does reboot more in attract mode because I haven't tried game mode in a week. Right now I still have 8 Ball ROMs in. What would happen if I try a game with the 8 Ball ROMs in place? The Wild Fyre ROMs seem delicate (they have been repaired). I'd rather not install them until I know it's for the last time.

I haven't tried test mode either. I don't think the test button was causing the reboot. Back when I was trying test mode it was re-booting every 10 seconds so getting into test mode was difficult.

Bob

Thanks pinwiz. I never thought of that. I'll try it.

Good tip.

Bob

Much to report today. Meter arrived!!!

First I checked 4514 pin 1 on the LDA = it fluctuates from 1.8 to above 2 K Hz.

Then I checked U11 - pin 40 = 316.8 Hz

Then U10 pin 18 = 119.9 Hz

Then 5101 pin 20 = Hi and pulsing

Then 5101 pin 18 = Hi and pulsing

Then voltage at TP5 = 5.23 with Radio Shack and 5.3 with Mastech

Voltage at 5101 pin 22 = 5.52 with Radio Shack and 5.61 with Mastech.

All tests done in the game.

Does anything look out of place?

Bob

Andrew, You can turn off the auto off feature. I found this in the manual:

I thought the lights where you insert the probes would go off when you plug in the correct probe. But mine stays on.

Bob

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How in the world did you ever find that!!!

Whenever I do any solder joint I always check my work with an 8X loupe. Even after I pulled the board I wasn't sure there was a solder bridge there. I checked it with a meter and it showed a short. I cleaned it out, re-checked continuity and installed the board. It's been setting there for over 30 minutes - never re-booted and the lights don't flicker.

I can't believe I put everyone through all this for such a dumb mistake like this.

Next I'll change back all the chips and try it again. Hopefully for the final time.

Thanks Quench.

Bob

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Not only surprised the board booted but it also played. It’s hard to believe but after I replaced all the headers and connectors on all the boards I re-installed them and played a few games to test it. Satisfied the game was working I was attempting to find the reason for the flickering feature lights. That’s when this whole mess started.

After dinner I put the Wild Fyre ROMs back in (I left the 8 Ball RAM, PIAs and CPU on the board). I fired up a game and it played fine. My wife and I played several games and it didn’t miss a beat. I still need to clean and adjust some switches and replace some lamps. Then I replaced the original Stern light driver board and tested it again. Still good.

Then I put the chips in the 8 Ball MPU and installed it and the 8 Ball light driver board. Tomorrow I’ll test it but it was working fine before I started swapping boards.

Quench, I’m so glad you didn’t give up. Not many people in this world are as dedicated to finding and solving this kind of problem. I really appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this. I can never thank you enough.

I also want to thank Andrew and everyone who followed us on this journey. It’s been almost 2 weeks but it has not been wasted. I have learned a few things and that’s what matters most.

Thanks

Bob

Today I fired up the 8 Ball (love that game). It played fine. Then I tried the Wild Fyre and it played fine too. Next I need to replace some lamps and install new headers and connectors on the displays. But first I gotta get some more games under my belt.

At this point all is great.

Thanks again for everyone's help. This was a tough one.

Bob

You are absolutely right. I think this meter and I will get along great. Besides frequency it will also measure capacitors. Neither are tests I need very often but nice to have. And I was looking to retire my old Radio Shack meter because it got paint splattered on it a while back. Still usable but the top corner of the display is a little hard to see now.

Speaking of meters I got an email today from Circuit-Specialists. They have this oscilloscope on sale.

https://www.circuitspecialists.com/usb-oscilloscope-hantek6022be.html?utm_source=Circuit+Specialists+Newsletter&utm_campaign=3896c0f1b8-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_01_09&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_dd242259e3-3896c0f1b8-53079137&mc_cid=3896c0f1b8&mc_eid=78330a6d55

I still don’t think I really NEED one but this has a lot going for it. It’s reasonable (58.00 delivered). It don’t take up much space on my workbench as I already have a laptop there that I use all the time. I’m thinking very seriously about ordering one. More as a toy because I have no idea how to use it.

Bob