Why Toy Story is a bad license

(Topic ID: 229874)

Why Toy Story is a bad license


By Dkjimbo

19 days ago



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  • Latest reply 2 days ago by Tranquilize
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    There are 223 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 5.
    #1 19 days ago

    Before I start, I am a Hobbit owner and absolutely LOVE the game. The new code is amazing and there is frankly no better value in pinball on the second hand market than Hobbit. I think JJP does amazing work and sets the bar incredibly high but here’s where I struggle. Every license has been a miss. Including Hobbit. I am desperately rooting for JJP to time the market right for once and grow some real success but I am very concerned looking forward particularly on Toy Story and here’s why.

    Bad Timing - Once again they are a day late and a dollar short (or years late). Yes, there’s a new movie coming out but this is an ancient franchise in today’s market and by the time the pin is announced (much less released) the enthusiasm for anything Toy Story will have died down. Just like Hobbit.

    Your kids and grandkids have no attention span - Those looking to provide this game as a family bonding experience for their kids or grandkids are doomed. Kids have ZERO attention span and after 5 minutes would rather go back to the video game of the week than to repeatedly play the same pin. Your kids and grandkids will not care and not be thankful and not be impressed any more than if you bought them a $60 PS4 game.

    Toy Story hasn’t aged well - Toy Story movies, particularly the first and even the second have aged about as well as the “money for nothing” video by Dire Straits. Very poor video quality will not make for good background like Hobbit. It feels extremely dated. Using clips from all the movies will appear jarring and disjointed given the visual disparity over the years.

    There isn’t any nostalgia - yes it’s a great heartfelt series but it as zero nostalgia for any era or any particular product line or soundtrack or ANYTHING that drives the feeling of nostalgia the way franchises like TMNT, BTTF, Star Wars, etc do. It is generic in every sense which drives no nostalgic connection to anyone or anything.

    The sentiment is lost on the audience - what is the theme or actual message of a Toy Story pin? A warm hearted tear jerker / comedy cartoon does not provide any sort of narrative that remotely aligns with or easily translates to a pinball machine. Creating a pin around this license requires dumbing it down to non-story based charater / identity driven modes and themes. No one playing pinball is looking for that “awweee, so cute!!” Moment or that “wow this means so much I’m going to go home and reflect on my life and relationships” type moment...both are what the movies are about. Great for film, pointless for pinball.

    The demographic is all wrong - the audience that has any tie to this franchise is traditionally not in the age group for most pinball buyers unless you are one of the older crowd who wants to buy this for your kids or grandkids and we have already touched on that topic above. This theme has no place in a “barcade” (I hate that term but you know what I’m referring to). The themes that resonate are obvious...familiar bands, comic franchises, 80s throwback themes, nostalgia driven themes, etc....of which Toy Story fits none.

    I only bring this up because I am concerned for JJP. I want them to succeed and pray to god the GNR rumors are true, it would be their first chance to really hit the mark. Toy Story is just another miss of a theme I fear.

    #2 19 days ago

    You are correct let’s pray for Willy Wonka ASAP

    44
    #3 19 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Toy Story hasn’t aged well

    And GnR has?

    19
    #4 19 days ago

    Disney’s opened Toy Story lands in several of there theme parks across the world this year. 11 acres in Hollywood Studios Florida, California and Shanghai. A new movie comes out next year!

    Guns and Roses was a good band but I don’t see a reunion tour anytime soon. Isn’t Axel performing with AC/DC? Willy Wonka, good title but why now ? If any of the rumors are true , Toy Story is the only relevant title and the original is 23 years old now, I’d say it has nostalgic memories for many and can reach a younger audience.

    -2
    #5 19 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Before I start, I am a Hobbit owner and absolutely LOVE the game. The new code is amazing and there is frankly no better value in pinball on the second hand market than Hobbit. I think JJP does amazing work and sets the bar incredibly high but here’s where I struggle. Every license has been a miss. Including Hobbit. I am desperately rooting for JJP to time the market right for once and grow some real success but I am very concerned looking forward particularly on Toy Story and here’s why.
    Bad Timing - Once again they are a day late and a dollar short (or years late). Yes, there’s a new movie coming out but this is an ancient franchise in today’s market and by the time the pin is announced (much less released) the enthusiasm for anything Toy Story will have died down. Just like Hobbit.
    Your kids and grandkids have no attention span - Those looking to provide this game as a family bonding experience for their kids or grandkids are doomed. Kids have ZERO attention span and after 5 minutes would rather go back to the video game of the week than to repeatedly play the same pin. Your kids and grandkids will not care and not be thankful and not be impressed any more than if you bought them a $60 PS4 game.
    Toy Story hasn’t aged well - Toy Story movies, particularly the first and even the second have aged about as well as the “money for nothing” video by Dire Straits. Very poor video quality will not make for good background like Hobbit. It feels extremely dated. Using clips from all the movies will appear jarring and disjointed given the visual disparity over the years.
    There isn’t any nostalgia - yes it’s a great heartfelt series but it as zero nostalgia for any era or any particular product line or soundtrack or ANYTHING that drives the feeling of nostalgia the way franchises like TMNT, BTTF, Star Wars, etc do. It is generic in every sense which drives no nostalgic connection to anyone or anything.
    The sentiment is lost on the audience - what is the theme or actual message of a Toy Story pin? A warm hearted tear jerker / comedy cartoon does not provide any sort of narrative that remotely aligns with or easily translates to a pinball machine. Creating a pin around this license requires dumbing it down to non-story based charater / identity driven modes and themes. No one playing pinball is looking for that “awweee, so cute!!” Moment or that “wow this means so much I’m going to go home and reflect on my life and relationships” type moment...both are what the movies are about. Great for film, pointless for pinball.
    The demographic is all wrong - the audience that has any tie to this franchise is traditionally not in the age group for most pinball buyers unless you are one of the older crowd who wants to buy this for your kids or grandkids and we have already touched on that topic above. This theme has no place in a “barcade” (I hate that term but you know what I’m referring to). The themes that resonate are obvious...familiar bands, comic franchises, 80s throwback themes, nostalgia driven themes, etc....of which Toy Story fits none.
    I only bring this up because I am concerned for JJP. I want them to succeed and pray to god the GNR rumors are true, it would be their first chance to really hit the mark. Toy Story is just another miss of a theme I fear.

    I have to say I agree with most of what you wrote. I love my WOZ because I had a connection with the theme as a kid, now older, I can play my pin and enjoy the nostalgia.

    Toy Story may be a fine movie, but I think you're right about the poor timing. It's too late for the initial excitement for this movie franchise; and on the other hand, it's too recent to be nostalgic.

    Willy Wonka may be the next JJP pin that could be a hit due to the nostalgia factor, but who knows. All I know is, while I thoroughly enjoyed listening to GNR as a teenager, I have no desire to buy a remake of that pin. I'm not sure this is the mark they should aim for.

    #6 19 days ago

    I have to disagree, and I wouldn’t be the only one. Looking forward to the title. On the Disney front Cars would also be a great title. If you have kids the title is timeless. It has aged well and will continue to do so. The new movie will introduce the franchise to another generation of fans who like Star Wars will go back to the originals that I enjoyed as a kid. GNR meh. I’d rather see Weezer with a Toto cover wizard mode.

    13
    #7 19 days ago

    This thread is ridiculous. All jjp license themes have been perfect for their brand. All have been great family entertainment franchises/titles. I even like DI as a theme(it's just different and refreshing). I respect jjp for the family oriented, home environment type company they want to be. Toy story is one of the biggest franchises of all time. All time. It's nostalgic for my family, and other than Starwars, I haven't had a theme I'm more excited for.

    Your statements are strictly your own opinion, and that's fine, but it won't be majority. I'm sure there are 100 times more reasons why TS is a phenomenal theme. Some said potc was an old theme, and now it's one of the greatest pins ever it seems. Potc is an amazing nostalgic theme BTW, and it was released in theaters after TS.

    Pretty simple really. If you don't like the theme, then stay out of the TS threads, and go get a current, not "ancient franchise" pin like GOTG. I'm sure you will be missing out on a really great jjp title with TS.

    Also, I'm not going to down vote you because it's just your opinion. I'm 39, and TS to me is very nostalgic to both me, and my kids. Great theme. No reason to down vote guys just for difference in opinions, and that's my opinion.

    25
    #8 19 days ago

    No offense op, I rarely downvote anything, but I disagree with everything about this thread.

    #9 19 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    pointless for pinball.

    All pinball machines are basically pointless...which is kind of the point.

    #10 19 days ago

    I did not read your post just the title. I cant disagree enough with the title of your thread. Thems Fighting Words!

    -5
    #11 19 days ago

    uhhhh yes?

    a good shooting machine - a'la Iron Maiden - themed around GnR's debut album through use your illusion ii (artwork and band footage too) and you might have the most epic 'hard rock' pin of all time.

    i'd wager a theme like that plays right into the wheelhouse of most people buying pins these day's... especially compared to toy story!

    29
    #12 19 days ago

    I just rewatched the original Toy Story movie a few weeks ago...by myself...I came across it on cable just as it was starting and it sucked me right in...I watched the whole thing and enjoyed it just as much as when I watched it dozens of times years ago with my children
    It absolutely has stood the test of time

    I would buy one...not to bond with my kids or grandkids, but for me and my wife

    #13 19 days ago

    I disagree with everything you say. Toy Story is a perfect theme for a pinball machine, and JJP is the perfect candidate to get the best out of it.

    #14 19 days ago

    I don’t love toy story but there are some great characters and so many fun call outs, to me it’s perfect for pinball. What better than an animated CGI movie with full 3d models for literally every single thing in the movie. You can imagine so many high quality toys.... bright, fun, kinda insane. I don’t need the video screen but some of the clips from the movie could really work for pinball.

    #15 19 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Your kids and grandkids have no attention span - Those looking to provide this game as a family bonding experience for their kids or grandkids are doomed. Kids have ZERO attention span and after 5 minutes would rather go back to the video game of the week than to repeatedly play the same pin. Your kids and grandkids will not care and not be thankful and not be impressed any more than if you bought them a $60 PS4 game.

    Also curious as to how you can say this with such certainty about all of our kids?

    #16 19 days ago

    Just came for OP’s ratio...

    But seriously, GNR has little to no appeal to me, but toy story? Sign me up. I’m 34 and it’s nostalgic to me. My business partner is in his early 40’s and he can’t wait to buy it. Disney just opened a new toy story section which has been incredibly popular. I think in a general sense, JJP hit the mark with it.

    The people who like the theme of IM and GNR? More power to ya, but for me personally and the majority of people I know have zero interest in the theme. The pin could still be great, but not a must have theme for me.

    I think some sort of poll of theme favorites broken down by age would be a fasincating survey. There’s obviously no right or wrong, but I would bet the preferences would vary wildly between the age groups. I guess the real question is which group has more disposable income, but I’m not really sure of the answer.

    Either way, excited for JJPTS and hope the gameplay is half as good as POTC has been. JJP simply makes some fun games and i expect to see them around a while.

    17
    #17 19 days ago

    Pre-Pre-Pre bitching about something that doesn't exist?

    #18 18 days ago

    For those not aware....

    https://imdb.com/title/tt1979376/

    Toy Story 4 is in the works with a scheduled release date of June 21, 2019.

    #19 18 days ago

    I agree with you that toy story would make a bad pinball machine, but disagree with you that GNR would.

    #20 18 days ago

    Enjoying the responses guys, yes this is just my opinion of course and not everyone has to agree. Funny how one poster asked about GNR reunion ever happening....ummm what rock have you been under, GNR has been touring for almost two years as the original (well, almost totally original if you want to be technical) lineup.

    GNR may not be everyone’s cup of tea but I only brought it up because it’s a strong JJP rumor given slash’s repeated comments lately and is as timeless of a theme as JJP has attempted outside of WOZ. It’s also no secret why GNR is the most expensive Data East machine by a mile.

    #22 18 days ago

    Enjoying the responses guys, yes this is just my opinion of course and not everyone has to agree. Funny how one poster asked about GNR reunion ever happening....ummm what rock have you been under, GNR has been touring for almost two years as the original (well, almost totally original if you want to be technical) lineup.

    I do recall this now that you mention it, Slash had a Dialed In delivered to him on tour. I’d also like to point out I’d buy a Guns and Roses pinball from JJP. But once again as for relavance, I forgot that and I’m planning a vacation all around the new Toy story land. It has a slinky dog roller coaster, that would be cool in a pin. It could be like a JJP October fest but with a cohesive art package, a claw for crabbing Aliens, any incorporation of ideas from Toy Story Mania and it would be timeless !

    #23 18 days ago

    I agree with some of what you say, and would add that Toy Story really hasn't had much traction or staying power with any generation or ages, outside of the US. PotC is somewhat this way too, and Depp face is a major downer. Hobbit wasn't the hottest property either ... but I can't really blame Jack or JJP for going after that, given that when they licensed it, it probably seemed like it'd be huge .. but that was likely before the extent of the production hell and general shit show became clear, and the resulting movies came out.

    If Toy Story doesn't line up with the theatrical release, it will be a huge own goal. Full on kids' themes are also untested and unproven, so there's a significant question mark even if timing does line up.

    DI I think can pick up a lot of sales in future, and sell through would further improve if they re-did some of the call-outs and voice work with professionals. Too much was made of the 'phone' theme, and not enough of the disaster aspect, and JJP did a poor job at communicating that, at first. Otherwise, I have no problem with the theme at all, and voice work aside, the only thing I'd change would be some faster paced or more upbeat music ... the elevator Muzak doesn't really say pinball or fun.

    How you can fail to acknowledge what a huge hit the theme for WOZ has been, I'm not sure.

    GnR ... I feel it'll stand or fall on its art, and not much else. If it looks awesome, it'll sell very well.

    Book or Wilder Wonka could be massive. Depp ... horrible flop, however good it is.

    #24 18 days ago

    This Will be my first pinball machine I would buy new in box. I am patiently waiting on Toy Story’s release date. You should revisit this thread when Toy Story outsells the Wizard of Oz. Lightbulb moment.

    #25 18 days ago

    Will Toy Story be a Wide Body ?

    I think JJP is awesome for going the extra mile

    Perhaps TS may trump WillyW ?

    Either way I want to see more JJP pins in Australia !

    -1
    #26 18 days ago
    Quoted from Cleanroom:

    You should revisit this thread when Toy Story outsells the Wizard of Oz. Lightbulb moment.

    I think it'll be a cold day in hell before that happens, however good the machine is.

    #27 18 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    How old are you?

    38 and have three kids aged 6,4 and 3 months. The kids love Toy Story movies for the record.

    14
    #28 18 days ago

    Every license is either bad or good, depending on what you like or dislike.

    Wizard of oz video assets are 75 years old.... They still look pretty damned good on the WOZ machine... so....

    #29 18 days ago

    Totally Disagree and tossing that out completely
    Pirates essentially has died out and they are still selling

    I see toy story being a crushing success and would imagine they will sell out

    As for relevance. Target is loaded with shirts of buzz lightyear and they are making Halloween shorts and specials. Clearly it’s working and a new movie to boot. Families love toy story, myself included, but in an unbiased opinion I think it will do very well.

    #30 18 days ago

    Stop it OP...Toy Story is a perfect theme for a pin; would sell like hotcakes if done right.

    -1
    #31 18 days ago
    Quoted from tamoore:

    Every license is either bad or good, depending on what you like or dislike.
    Wizard of oz video assets are 75 years old.... They still look pretty damned good on the WOZ machine... so....

    You are comparing apples and oranges there. While Wizard of Oz was certainly filmed decades ago in a much different era in terms of technology and special effects, it is still live actors in front of an actual camera while toy story was computer rendered three dimensional storytelling in its infancy. That technology has come so incredibly far and it is not a medium like videogames where the classic look And feel provide a sense of nostalgia to the viewer, they merely just look outdated and poor. There is nobody walking around clamoring for new three-dimensional cartoons stylized on late 90s and early 2000’s technology. Somethings just age out and this is a very strong example of that. And again, by the time they got to toy story 3 and now this new one, the technology hascaught up and been noticeably impactful to the series. The issue there however is that watching them in sequence provides for a level of discontinuity that rivals watching the Star Wars movies sequentially.

    #32 18 days ago
    Quoted from rollinover:

    Totally Disagree and tossing that out completely
    Pirates essentially has died out and they are still selling
    I see toy story being a crushing success and would imagine they will sell out
    As for relevance. Target is loaded with shirts of buzz lightyear and they are making Halloween shorts and specials. Clearly it’s working and a new movie to boot. Families love toy story, myself included, but in an unbiased opinion I think it will do very well.

    I completely agree with you on the brand of toy story being a long-term continual success but that doesn’t necessarily translate to a pinball machine which goes back to my points above regarding the demographics and intended market. Every kid is running around with toys story pajamas and action figures or dolls but Those kids are not buyers or the market for a toy story pinball it is of course the middle-aged man with money to spend. I could reference 100 other wildly successful children’s brands and franchises that would make absolutely no sense as a pinball theme.

    Further making toy story trend downward as a pinball title is the inevitable swing and miss of market alignment with the films release next year. JJP is batting 0.000 with timing on their releases and there is no indication whatsoever that they will be able to time the market right with toy story unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat.

    14
    #33 18 days ago

    Everyone loves Toy Story and its a great family themed pin also. I can see Toy Story and Willy Wonka both being a big hit with people. Those two themes will stand the test of time.

    #34 18 days ago

    Zero interest in a kids themed pinball machine. I bet it will be fun to shoot, but the movies do not resonate with me. No "member berries" are consumed in this house.

    #35 18 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Further making toy story trend downward as a pinball title is the inevitable swing and miss of market alignment with the films release next year.

    Why on earth do people think this matters? It doesn’t matter when a game comes out. As long as the theme is poplar, it will sell. Toy Story is insanely popular.

    I’m 34. My wife is 40, my daughter is 11. We all LOVE toy story and I don’t know anyone my age that doesn’t also love it.

    I’d say this will be insanely popular with ages 25-40. That’s a great demo to appeal to.

    #36 18 days ago

    The target pinball market is probably 35-55. Toy Story hits this market almost perfectly. Plus it hits that Family market better than any pin in the last 20+ years.

    10
    #37 18 days ago

    And all the toys modes etc

    Sid. Aliens. Buzz woody. The claw machine. Pizza planet. Piggy bank.

    The possibilities and modes are endless

    Tears... it’s beautiful man
    Now just needs to be made

    #38 18 days ago

    Nah... Toy Story works perfectly, hugely popular and its most certainly not a dead franchise.

    -2
    #39 18 days ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    The target pinball market is probably 35-55. Toy Story hits this market almost perfectly. Plus it hits that Family market better than any pin in the last 20+ years.

    Nobody is asking for a family themed pin. How well did Shrek do? Exactly...

    There is a reason Stern is smart enough to avoid any and all of even the most tempting juggernaut family themes as licenses for future games. Stern does Sopranos, Marvel action films, Iron Maiden, Metallica, walking dead, hell, even world poker tour, etc - all “adult oriented” themes.

    Look back at data east, sega or BW for further proof. You’ve got action movies all day long, not a single “family theme” in sight besides maybe Rocky and Bullwinkle or Popeye which are not exactly popular and on the low end of the hobby.

    #40 18 days ago

    I think toy story is great theme I think it is still a very popular license. Most of the people who enjoy Toy story and are excited for the fourth movie are adults which hits the pinball demographic perfectly.

    #41 18 days ago

    It will sell regardless but I do sort of agree with the OP. All of JJP's current theme's and rumored themes are very blah to me. WOZ is ok, TH were pretty bad movies, DI is super weird, POTC is about 10 years too late, Toy Story does nothing for me, Willy Wonka is another strange kids movie, I heard GNR way too much in 1990 to ever care to here them again.

    If others want and like the games that's great. I'm certainly not upset when I don't feel the urge to rush and buy a 10K pinball machine. Maybe there is a lot of people like me, maybe I'm in the minority. But it does seem that JJP is struggling to get their licenses or themes just right. Add in that they are consistently 1 year plus on delivering games after announcement and you get stale titles that are really stale by the time you get the game.

    JJP does make really good games. They don't make games that cause me to rush out and buy them though.

    #42 18 days ago
    Quoted from rollinover:

    And all the toys modes etc
    Sid. Aliens. Buzz woody. The claw machine. Pizza planet. Piggy bank.
    The possibilities and modes are endless
    Tears... it’s beautiful man

    Cmon JJP you can finally top that gum ball machine in TZ with Toy Story.

    Give us a working claw machine that picks up pinballs

    #43 18 days ago

    If you are narrowing the Toy Story license to the movies, you are probably doing it wrong. I would ask how many people here have been in the queue for Toy Story Mania at Disney Studios? Toy Story is a vast playground to bring classic toys and board game pieces to life, and the line for that ride proves it. My mom could care less about Toy Story movies, but she absolutely fell in love with the line and that ride because of its use of classic toys. Toy Story offers lots of opportunity for creativity, we shall see if Jersey Jack can handle it, or reduce it down to Toy Story 1/2/3/4 multiball with a 22 character selection system. That would be a disappointment.

    #44 18 days ago

    Are people going to lose their minds and torch JJP if Toy Story or Willy Wonka is a retheme of DI like has been rumored?

    #45 18 days ago
    Quoted from J85M:

    Cmon JJP you can smash that gum ball machine in TZ with Toy Story. Give us a working claw machine that picks up pinballs

    That would actually be one of the coolest toys ever in pinball!

    #46 18 days ago

    I wouldn't be interested in a Toy Story game, but I can completely understand why a lot of people would.

    I, however, think it should be a re-theme of Gottlieb's RoGo, and have assets taken from only the first 10 minutes of the very first movie.

    Also, it should be about 3" shorter, not have a coin door, and sell for about 9000 dollars.

    Who's with me?

    #47 18 days ago

    I think the only thing that could potentially hurt this release is if the 4th movie that comes out totally bombs. And even if it does totally bomb, I still feel that with Jersey Jack behind the wheel that this will be a very good and successful pin.

    #48 18 days ago

    I think (my own opinion) Toy Story would be a great theme for a lot of reasons. But here is a couple that hit home for me besides the usual obvious ones:

    It's old enough to be nostalgic and fun for adults. I'm in my 50s and still chuckle at the movies and quotes. The kids are not buying the pinball machines, its the parents that are.

    There are very few "kids" themes anyway. Sure there are comic book themes, superheros and a Cinderella woodrail. Kids movies?...next to none except Shrek.

    #49 18 days ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    Are people going to lose their minds and torch JJP if Toy Story or Willy Wonka is a retheme of DI like has been rumored?

    Wouldn’t matter to me. DI shoots great.

    16
    #50 18 days ago

    So the real title of this thread should be "Why JJP Toy Story is not for ME." aka OP

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