(Topic ID: 277695)

why the hate for flippers?


By Beaumistim

4 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 118 posts
  • 75 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by grantopia
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “why the hate for flippers?”

    • YES I HATE FLIPPERS, I HOPE THEY BURN N HELL 89 votes
      55%
    • NO, PEOPLE HAVE TO MAKE MONEY 20 votes
      12%
    • I dont care cause i just love pinball 54 votes
      33%

    (163 votes)

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    There are 118 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    12
    #51 4 months ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    You don't rip off the uninformed.

    I see this mentioned a lot hand in hand with flippers. I don’t think that’s part of being a flipper. It’s part of being an asshole.

    #52 4 months ago

    Used Car Salesman’s mentality .... buy a top ten game for peanuts ... so you can flip it for a 2k profit ... while telling the owner of the game how bad it is , and no one would probably buy it ... boo Fkn hoo .. Not all flippers , but most from my experience . Note to flippers , don’t insult the sellers . Some of us do the research .

    #53 4 months ago

    The best is when someone posts a game for sale but it's still strapped in their trailer or back of the truck. Can't even unload it before trying to flip it

    #54 4 months ago

    almost everything i have flipped is in order to buy something else. lets say i want a GB premium. but i find a value on another pin that is undermarket value. i buy that pin, then re sell it , and use the extra cash to go into the fund towards the GB premium. however almost always something happens, car break down, one of my rental properties AC goes out, etc etc. and that money gets used in that instance. because keeping rental properties up is more important than a pinball machine. I also never beat up the seller on price, if its up and under market value, i just pay what they are asking. essentialy coinopwarehouse does this exclusively, they buy stuff, and then resell it, without fixing it up. I just bought a dredd from texas, for way under value, then something came up in my area that i want to buy, so i said , oh well with the dredd and posted it for sale and got major heat. of course it still sold in like 5 minutes, but many people, even people who do the exact same thing as i do were upset. im just not sure why.

    #55 4 months ago

    I’ve only purchased games and kept them so I’m no flipper. I totally get the frustration with flippers and there are some concerns that make sense but I totally don’t understand the “artificially inflate prices” point.

    There is nothing artificial about about someone buying something in a transaction where both parties are happy and then selling where both parties are again happy. If one party feels scammed then that’s another matter but if both parties are happy in each transaction then the only reason for anyone to be unhappy are the parties that missed out.

    If another buyer beats you to the $500 home use TZ, then you are just pissed that you didn’t rip the seller off for that amount yourself. If you later find out it was flipper and he’s reselling for $7000, then you’re even more pissed because he’s a scammy flipper. But if you got it, played it or not for awhile, you would sell it for market value anyway wouldn’t you?

    It’s a free market and anyone is free to buy and should be free to sell at whatever fair price. And the line between flipper and enthusiast is not very clear. Ultimately just people buying things, keeping for a little or long time and then selling for what they can get. Nothing wrong with that.

    #56 4 months ago

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?

    John

    #57 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dayhuff:

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?
    John

    6 months sounds reasonable to me. That is more than enough time to have your experience with it and move it on to someone else to enjoy.
    And doing it that way it ties up your money that you invested and no longer should be declared as a quick flip.
    -Mike

    #58 4 months ago

    Can't lump all re-sellers of games into the same bucket.
    Many of the comments above have described the negative connotation of what many of us consider 'flippers'.... in which case, I'd say they resemble 'scammers'. I've found the most irritating and immoral flippers live on Facebook, Craigslist, and OfferUp.

    I've been burned by a scummy flipper (jamesbon1) so now I ONLY buy from other 'collectors' or 'resellers' because they generally represent their games properly and care about their reputation.

    #59 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dayhuff:

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?

    It's not how long you keep it, it's about what value you provide to the buying and selling process.

    If all you do is load it up and then sell it without fixing or cleaning it, you're just a rent seeker scumbag middleman. That game would have gone to an actual value adder without his intervention. Levi's bullshit argument about how they bring games out that would otherwise never see the light of day is bunk - flippers are responding to ADS placed by the SELLERS.

    I bought three container loads of games once and I paid about $500-$800 per game when they were easily worth $2,000 or more each, but I fixed and cleaned most of them, and used some for parts, and parted out a bunch more. I provided a service. Even if I hadn't, assembling them all, dealing with the packing and shipping, dealing with the sellers in Europe and so on was a value-add in that I brought in games to the market that were otherwise sitting.

    #60 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dayhuff:

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?
    John

    Has nothing to do with it. A flipper would never bother to bring a game into their home or consider playing it for entertainment/enjoyment.

    10
    #61 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dayhuff:

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?
    John

    I don't think it is a matter of time. To me a flipper does nothing to improve the game. Simply buy and sell at a profit without bothering to make the most simple of fixes.

    Buying a game, cleaning it and getting it working 99% before selling it a week later is not flipping in my mind.

    #62 4 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Buying a game, cleaning it and getting it working 99% before selling it a week later is not flipping in my mind.

    If that’s all you really do, then I disagree. Others pointed out it would be a “retailer” but these days, the smart resellers don’t need a retail “name, title, or business”.

    #63 4 months ago

    The OP states "sell at market value" but yet many comments says this drives up price.....I understand economics fairly well but I feel I'm missing something....

    #64 4 months ago

    Reading most of the posts here, it sounds like most people classify flippers as someone who doesn't add value. In my case, I find low end em's, usually $100, to $400 games in poor condition. Don't have the skills or time to do full restores, but clean everything, make sure it works 100 percent, touch up play fields, polish all metal, touch up cabinets sometimes, and generally bring the game to the best it can be without a full restore. When sold, have gone back and fixed problems if happen right away, once 5 times to fix an annoying intermittent problem. Some games have kept in my small collection, but have sold 27 of the 40 games have purchased in the last 4.5 years in the hobby. Part of the reason, I can't afford this hobby otherwise. The sold games have, mostly, paid for my personal collection. So, flipper? Or ???

    #65 4 months ago
    Quoted from DCRand:

    So, flipper? Or ???

    Not flipper. You’re adding value.

    #66 4 months ago
    Quoted from misfitdart:

    The OP states "sell at market value" but yet many comments says this drives up price.....I understand economics fairly well but I feel I'm missing something....

    I think the OP has a history with some people on here. Here is the listing that originally caught some people's attention- https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/83773

    I think he ended up relisting at a different price, but the "sell at market value" is what may be the part that is up for debate. I don't recall the thread tied to the listing, but I think he mentioned that price because he wanted to trade, and not sell outright.

    #67 4 months ago

    I don't expect people to keep every game they buy. Sometimes you buy/trade for a few because you only wanted one. Sometimes a operator or warehouse calls you to offload stuff, or you find a hidden gem that nobody else knew about. Stuff like that doesn't bother me at all. I don't even hold anything against the guys that buy games as their business for the sake of fixing them up and re-selling at a later point.

    But there's a few scenarios that drive people nuts. We've all seen them, been on the losing end of them, or got priced out of the market because of them.

    Typically it's a good deal on a game that's just a few hours away. You contact the seller, you're first in line, you agree on a price. "I'll be there in 3 hours with cash, definitely buying the game" you tell them. Everything seems all happy and all parties are in agreement. By the time you arrive, some flipper has already swooped in and the game is gone. Now you've spend half a day driving, burned a few bucks in gas..... and the next day you see the same game on pinside, or facebook, or craigslist with a big markup. Sometimes with the same pictures as the original sale, because they can't be bothered to even set it up for good pictures.

    Or another fun one. You see a game for sale at a show for a good price, and you call right away to buy it. But because you're just a "regular admission", and not a vendor, it's already been claimed by somebody else before the show even started. Funny thing is... the next day the game is still in the SAME SPOT, but a new name/number on the tag with a hefty price increase.

    #68 4 months ago
    Quoted from HighVoltage:

    So, looks more like "try to gouge for as much as possible first" and don't do any work, rather than "sell it at market value".

    wait until you hear about landlords

    #69 4 months ago

    I mean, flippers sometimes shake the trees and find games for sale that people generally never are able to find. So there's a positive.

    On the other hand, my experience is they find these games, wipe the dirt off and say "shopped." Shame on me but I paid retail on a game from someone who upon reflection was a flipper, and it was listed as "completely reconditioned."

    The pop bumper lighting wires were held down with hot glue
    A lift ramp didn't work at all
    Drop targets were the standard WD-40'd goopy slow drop
    LED's were the standard cheap Chinese junk
    The lockbar and coin door were spray painted silver.

    AGAIN: SHAME ON ME, but this person added zero value to finding a game and I find this to be typical.

    But, that's life I guess. It's encouraged to get that money, so that's what they're doing. Pinball buyers generally have money burning in their pocket, they're just taking advantage of the market.

    #70 4 months ago

    The Indiana Jones was listed at " I want to trade, but if someone wants to give me stupid money" I'll sell it. That game ended up getting traded for a TSPP. I don't think I've ever misrepresented a game. I've told all I know to be wrong with the game. I found that IJ in the back of a warehouse for sub 2k. Many games after drive time, hours and price I make barely any dollars or break even on. When there is a chance to make very good money I try to do that. I don't swoop in and buy games. If I'm not the first to agree on price I don't mess with it. If the machine is under valued I pay full asking price. Almost every time the seller knows it's under value but " needs money for something else".

    #71 4 months ago
    Quoted from AliciaC:

    They typically artificially inflate the prices for the rest of us contributing to manufacturer price creep

    I seriously doubt that the price of a used pin is going to drive the manufacturer to raise prices. Typically, when manufacturers raise prices the used market will follow because the manufacture just created more room to raise the price on your used item.

    #72 4 months ago
    Quoted from Dayhuff:

    So that brings up the question of how long would you have to keep a game in your "collection" so that it's not considered "flipped" when you go to sell it?
    John

    You took the words right out of my mouth.

    If you sell it the next day, you are a flipper. But if you set in the corner and do nothing but wait 6 months you are not a flipper; That makes you an investor.

    Retailers will buy a pin and maybe all is well and it needs nothing. They are for sure not going to sell it for the same price that they paid. And not all retailers are angels, either.

    #73 4 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    If you sell it the next day, you are a flipper. But if you set in the corner and do nothing but wait 6 months you are not a flipper; That makes you an investor

    You are a flipper on both, you just priced one too low and one too high...

    #74 4 months ago
    Quoted from Beaumistim:

    Many games after drive time, hours and price I make barely any dollars or break even on. When there is a chance to make very good money I try to do that.

    And you answered your own question.

    #75 4 months ago
    Quoted from ralphwiggum:

    You are a flipper on both, you just priced one too low and one too high...

    No. I did not price it at all. I just sat it over in the corner for 6 months.

    #76 4 months ago

    When I have cheap project games that I know I am not going to get to, I actively try to avoid selling to flippers. Instead I sell to a few people who I know will take them and make them beautiful again by putting in way more effort than they are often worth. Had a playboy that was just decrepit. The after pictures sent to me looked like a brand new machine. That is what is meant by value added for our hobby. Nothing wrong with making a buck. Would just like to see the commodity (the pin) left off in a better state than it was found as a result of the sale rather than just as cash in someone’s pocket. Isn’t that what this hobby is all about, preserving these machines for future generations ?

    #77 4 months ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    Isn’t that what this hobby is all about, preserving these machines for future generations ?

    When it is a hobby, this is exactly what it is about..... When you look at your machine and go... "I need to make $xxx on this one", I don't believe you are still in the hobby world...

    #78 4 months ago

    As others have said... for all the self proclaimed “true collectors” on here getting good deals on games... they aren’t ever selling them for below market value to pay it forward and practice what they preach. They want what the game is worth and are more than happy to make the money. Also, plenty of delusional collectors on here are inflating the prices as much as flippers... and I’m not a flipper.

    #79 4 months ago
    Quoted from PinballGiant:

    they aren’t ever selling them for below market value to pay it forward and practice what they preach

    With 100% certainty, I can assure you this isn't the case.

    #80 4 months ago
    Quoted from PinballGiant:

    As others have said... for all the “true collectors” on here getting good deals on games... they aren’t ever selling them for below market value to pay it forward and practice what they preach. They want what the game is worth and are more than happy to make the money. Also, plenty of delusional collectors on here are inflating the prices as much as flippers.

    True that. And I am guilty as charged as is most everyone else. The only defense I have (and it’s not much of one) is that the hourly wage that goes into restoring them would make this a money losing proposition if taken into the equation. I do try to sell my project games for the price I paid. But my restored games are market value.

    #81 4 months ago
    Quoted from pookycade:

    I do try to sell my project games for the price I paid

    "Try to" is right. Some times you are lucky if you can even get someone to come take a look.

    #82 4 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    "Try to" is right. Some times you are lucky if you can even get someone to come take a look.

    From personal experience I can tell ya selling project pins is 100X easier than selling project video games. But yes working condition preferred by all under pretty much all circumstances. Can’t price it low enough sometimes for people to bother to come out, until you get close to free

    -1
    #83 4 months ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Lets see. A few weeks ago there was a black pyramid pin on FB for $375. This is a game I was looking for and only 30 minutes from me. Messaged at 10 minutes from post. Seller said I was second in line and could pick up if first guy didn't buy.
    Well first guy was coinop. Yes a flipper. But hey, I can now drive and extra hour and go buy it for $975 exactly the way it was from the seller.
    Yeah, gotta love those flippers.

    So your angry you didn't get a cheap game, someone else did and therefore they are horrible? Makes perfect sense.

    #84 4 months ago

    Was fortunate enough to grab a F-14 Tomcat a few blocks from my house for $350. Spent $700 fixing/cleaning/and adding mods. Sold it a month later for $1850. I don't feel bad at all and would do it again every day of the week. People who complain about flippers are just upset they didn't get the game themselves.

    #85 4 months ago

    I think people are confusing the buying and selling of games with flipping.

    Buying a game, cleaning it and fixing problems, then selling for a profit is fine and normal. You are providing a service.

    Buying a game and relisting it at a high value before you even take it off the truck is flipping. That’s just being a parasite.

    #86 4 months ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    I think people are confusing the buying and selling of games with flipping.
    Buying a game, cleaning it and fixing problems, then selling for a profit is fine and normal. You are providing a service.
    Buying a game and relisting it at a high value before you even take it off the truck is flipping. That’s just being a parasite.

    Still makes no sense. So many rules. Plenty of people do this sort of thing but only some of them are bad for different reasons. It should make no difference what someone paid for a game when selling. If the price is market value and game not misrepresented then what's the problem? Plenty of "collectors" sell rough games as mint for top dollar.

    #87 4 months ago

    Because love flippers or hate flippers, woodrails are sexy!

    #88 4 months ago
    Quoted from Grizlyrig:

    6 months sounds reasonable to me. That is more than enough time to have your experience with it and move it on to someone else to enjoy.
    And doing it that way it ties up your money that you invested and no longer should be declared as a quick flip.
    -Mike

    What if it is someone like me. Bought a game and never got around to fixing it up to play. It stayed wrapped up for 6 months before I sold it without doing anything to it.

    Are you required to play the game to not be considered a flipper?

    #89 4 months ago

    I'm surprised at the people who are whining about some people being flippers. As long as games are bought and sold honestly, who cares and who has any right to complain? Whether people admit it or not 99% of the world is a capitalist economy. Meaning things of all kinds, not just pinballs but cars, houses, antiques, watches, coconuts, etc etc etc are bought and sold at market value, every day, by a willing seller and a willing buyer.

    If someone sees what they perceive to be an underpriced game, runs out, buys it, brings it home, re-advertises it, and sells it to a willing buyer for an agreeable price, then where should anyone be outraged? The seller has risked his own time and money in this venture with no absolute assurance of an eventual profit, if ever. As long as the seller does not claim the game to be anything different than it actually is condition -wise, why complain?

    Any why must a flipper "add value" during the deal? As long as he is not selling a non-working game as shopped or restored, why must "value" be added? The value is in having found a desirable game at a good price, dragging it out of whatever dark recess it was found in, and then offering the game to someone else who maybe does not have the time, skills, or equipment to do that himself. And the finder in my opinion is entitled to make whatever from the game that the market will bear. If that is $50 or $5000 more than he paid - so what? If I spend my whole life out digging in the dirt for diamonds and I find a really big one, should I be obligated to sell it for $100 because I didn't add any value to it? Or because someone else is sad that they didn't find it first? It's worth what it's worth and if you want to buy it, you need to pay the price.

    Now if the flipper decides to shop the game, restoring everything to like new condition, adding LEDs or a color DMD perhaps, replacing broken ramps or bad backglasses - then shouldn't he also be able to put whatever price he wants on the finished product? If it sells fairly and honestly to a willing buyer, than the price was correct. If it doesn't sell, he needs to consider maybe lowering his price. But that all works itself out in the marketplace.

    I get frustrated too when I see a great game at a great price on CL and immediately call only to find I am the fifteenth caller and have little or no chance of getting the game. That just means I should have worked a little harder to find the game sooner. Somebody else did! Should I be mad because I lost out in a fair contest? Should I overbid the buyer in an attempt to steal the game out from under him? Now THAT is something that really pisses ME off! If someone gets a good deal, celebrate with the buyer and resolve to look harder yourself next time. Don't try to blow up his deal out of jealousy.

    #90 4 months ago

    I always sell a game i am no longer playing for a few hundred under market value to help fix any problems that might occur after the sale. I sometimes flip a game that i get a good deal on but I always improve it with at least LED'S and general cleaning and fixing issues. I can't stand flippers that are your "friend" that you agree on a price with and they get an offer a couple hundred more and they don't honor your deal. There is a famous former flipper in my area that has been out of flipping for several years that always tricked out the pins he sold and did a full shop job. Yes he made some profit but he priced his pins very fairly . That's the flipping i see as adding value to the hobby . The ones that don't add value sell a pin on their way home from a pick up for top dollar without going through the pin.

    #91 4 months ago
    Quoted from sbmania:

    why must "value" be added?

    Because that parasite is removing value otherwise. It’s called rent seeking.

    #92 4 months ago

    Are you collecting? Are you restoring prior to sale? Or are you looking for a way to make quick money?

    Did we all come to agreement on the definition of flipping?

    There are some great buyers and sellers on this site, who work hard and should make money.

    Free market system, if you are going to all the trouble to do this, then no one can cry foul.

    Just my opinion; personally I don't care for flippers, reminds me of scalpers.

    #93 4 months ago
    Quoted from Spencer:

    So your angry you didn't get a cheap game, someone else did and therefore they are horrible? Makes perfect sense.

    If that someone else is a commercial business, yes. They have no problem finding stuff to sell - sourcing their stock from classified ads is obnoxious.

    #94 4 months ago
    Quoted from Spencer:

    So your angry you didn't get a cheap game, someone else did and therefore they are horrible? Makes perfect sense.

    Nice try but not even close. I wanted the game for my classic Bally row. They wanted the game to sell for profit. Some of us actually still enjoy collecting games and not just flipping them.

    #95 4 months ago

    What a dumb fucking thread.
    Fuck a flipper.

    #96 4 months ago

    If I learned anything from this thread, it is that flippers on Pinside have hearts of gold.

    #97 4 months ago

    Snaprag flippers is why I got out of restoring pinballs and I thank them profusely.
    They are the main reason you can still buy NIB pins.
    I looked at overpriced MBs with acid on the boards, so glad a NIB was an option.
    If you enjoy new titles and remakes thank your local snapragger for making it possible to buy them.

    #98 4 months ago

    Why the hate for flippers? Because flippers ruined pinball. Why, I remember when they first came out on Humpty Dumpty. Totally made nudging an afterthought. Now a game of skill, they said. Boo.

    #99 4 months ago
    Quoted from arcademojo:

    Nice try but not even close. I wanted the game for my classic Bally row. They wanted the game to sell for profit. Some of us actually still enjoy collecting games and not just flipping them.

    Nothing wrong with making a profit, even at your expense, that's the way life works. Again, you wanted the game and your upset someone else got it. Why you wanted it or why they wanted it makes no difference. Sour grapes, period.

    #100 4 months ago
    Quoted from sbmania:

    I'm surprised at the people who are whining about some people being flippers. As long as games are bought and sold honestly, who cares and who has any right to complain? Whether people admit it or not 99% of the world is a capitalist economy. Meaning things of all kinds, not just pinballs but cars, houses, antiques, watches, coconuts, etc etc etc are bought and sold at market value, every day, by a willing seller and a willing buyer.
    If someone sees what they perceive to be an underpriced game, runs out, buys it, brings it home, re-advertises it, and sells it to a willing buyer for an agreeable price, then where should anyone be outraged? The seller has risked his own time and money in this venture with no absolute assurance of an eventual profit, if ever. As long as the seller does not claim the game to be anything different than it actually is condition -wise, why complain?
    Any why must a flipper "add value" during the deal? As long as he is not selling a non-working game as shopped or restored, why must "value" be added? The value is in having found a desirable game at a good price, dragging it out of whatever dark recess it was found in, and then offering the game to someone else who maybe does not have the time, skills, or equipment to do that himself. And the finder in my opinion is entitled to make whatever from the game that the market will bear. If that is $50 or $5000 more than he paid - so what? If I spend my whole life out digging in the dirt for diamonds and I find a really big one, should I be obligated to sell it for $100 because I didn't add any value to it? Or because someone else is sad that they didn't find it first? It's worth what it's worth and if you want to buy it, you need to pay the price.
    Now if the flipper decides to shop the game, restoring everything to like new condition, adding LEDs or a color DMD perhaps, replacing broken ramps or bad backglasses - then shouldn't he also be able to put whatever price he wants on the finished product? If it sells fairly and honestly to a willing buyer, than the price was correct. If it doesn't sell, he needs to consider maybe lowering his price. But that all works itself out in the marketplace.
    I get frustrated too when I see a great game at a great price on CL and immediately call only to find I am the fifteenth caller and have little or no chance of getting the game. That just means I should have worked a little harder to find the game sooner. Somebody else did! Should I be mad because I lost out in a fair contest? Should I overbid the buyer in an attempt to steal the game out from under him? Now THAT is something that really pisses ME off! If someone gets a good deal, celebrate with the buyer and resolve to look harder yourself next time. Don't try to blow up his deal out of jealousy.

    Agree.

    Seems like most on here are just whining since they sometimes get beat to the deals.

    Another thing I notice is that many like to signal to themselves and the pinball community that they are pure hobbiests who deserve to have games over others who don’t love pinball as much as they do. They are the true followers and keepers of the ‘true path’. They wave the banner to signal far and wide they are the true, trustworthy and fair while the others are scum.

    Then don’t hesitate for a second to offer grandma $500 for the home use TZ that grandma listed for $800. And now that the greatest prise in this hobby has been claimed (that of getting great games for next to nothing), they proceed to tell everyone they know how great of a deal they got.

    Then they pick the banner up again to signal how incredibly fair and honest they are. They are the true and fair hobbiests and the others scum.

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    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 9,000.00
    $ 239.99
    Lighting - Led
    PinballBulbs
    $ 20.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 110.00
    Boards
    AMCO
    $ 4.49
    Electronics
    Yorktown Arcade Supply
    $ 239.00
    From: $ 42.00
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 29.95
    Gameroom - Decorations
    ULEKstore
    $ 40.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    ArcadeArts
    $ 229.99
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