(Topic ID: 278681)

Why suddenly are only deep games considered good?


By jorant

3 months ago



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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by koji
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    There are 64 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 3 months ago

    What is with the shift from shallow games being good to only deeper games being good? Why are we saying that deep games that take 30 to 40 minutes to beat are the best? I'm surprised that this shift happened to quickly.

    One of my favorite games ever is as deep as a puddle: doctor who. I like games that make you want to play "just like more time." I feel deep games don't have that same appeal.

    What's going on here? Am I crazy?

    10
    #2 3 months ago

    Is there some committee of experts out there that decide these things? Like a pinball ruling class? Who is ste?

    Don't know or care what anybody else thinks in that department, so I'm not sure where you got your info.

    Only games that are good are the one's I think are good. And those are not games that take forever. I won't even play those monotonous, mine numbing machines as a rule.

    #3 3 months ago

    Ste says maybe.

    #4 3 months ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    Ste says maybe.

    Suite.

    #5 3 months ago

    I lean towards the nasty games that are shallow as a puddle of piss (except for my weekly game of LOTR). I traded my Tron for a JP Prem and I really miss it.

    35
    #6 3 months ago

    I shake my head with every stern reveal, as some guy tries to explain all these modes and stacking horseshit...blah blah blah.
    I just go out to my garage and turn on Firepower, Paragon, or Black Hole and enjoy simple perfection.

    If your game needs a thousand rules, to be good than the designers have missed the point.

    Message from the Freeeek Kingdom.

    11
    #7 3 months ago

    It didn't happen quickly. Most EM's in the 70's you could play for five minutes and figure out the rules. Didn't even need to read the instruction card, although virtually all of the rules were written on them. In the 80's games got deeper rules. Reading the instruction card wasn't enough. In the 90's, we got wizard modes. In the 2000's, we got even deeper games with wizard modes that were often out of reach for the vast majority of players.

    Which games are 'good' is subjective. Stern and JJP continuing to build games with (mostly) deeper rules suggests that's what their customers want. Stern tried dumbing down the rules on Munsters. That didn't go well with home buyers, but there about as many of those on location as other recent Stern's. We'll see if they try that approach again.

    The other thing that has changed is players are better now. Competitive pinball hasn't been organized in the past. Now, you can easily track your ranking online no matter where you live or compete. That has brought a lot more good players onto the scene. Escher Lefkoff won PAPA A division at age 13. These new younger players want those deeper rules. Games made before 2000 get boring fast for those players.

    I've been playing for more than 50 years now and while I still enjoy playing the EM's I learned on for fun, I would rather play today's deeper games. Learning the rules and finding exploits is half the fun. I don't read instruction cards on new games until I get 40 or 50 games in. You have to learn the rules along with the shots. Once I get a feel for the game, learning the rules gets easier and whatever it says on the intruction card makes more sense. I'm thankful for all the great games coming out today. It really is a great time to be a pinball player.

    38
    #8 3 months ago

    Someone said it well elsewhere on the forum, in the past the games were designed to take your 50 cents but now they're designed to take your $7000-$10,000....

    #9 3 months ago

    I like both types, shallow and deep. Deep games have something fun, where you discover rules years later and they become an obsession again. I just learned how to increase the spinner value on Stern Star Trek after years of owning it. Things like that keep me loving pinball.

    But on the other hand, I love shallow games. One of my favorite games is Team One setup on novelty play. If you can do 5 things (2 and 3 are linked), you go to town on points. It’s wonderful, and only takes a few minutes to play a good game.

    If Stern put out a game that shallow, it wouldn’t sell. And the reason is simple. There are hundreds of shallow games out there. EM, solid state, and they are a lot less expensive. If I want that, I’m not paying for a new Stern.

    #10 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    Why are we saying that deep games that take 30 to 40 minutes to beat are the best?

    Who's saying that?

    I think most of us need both kinds of games.

    #11 3 months ago

    The trick is to have the best of both worlds, a game that is fun to play for a short time, but also has depth to keep you interested. To me, Medieval Madness is the perfect balance of this, which is why it is so popular and highly regarded. I find new Sterns lack that balance, which is why most of them bore me after only a few plays.

    #12 3 months ago
    Quoted from dgpinball:

    The trick is to have the best of both worlds, a game that is fun to play for a short time, but also has depth to keep you interested. To me, Medieval Madness is the perfect balance of this, which is why it is so popular and highly regarded. I find new Sterns lack that balance, which is why most of them bore me after only a few plays.

    They got that balance back with EHOH; it’s a great mix where you can have a fun 5 minute game, or dig in and be there for 30 minutes. Not the hardest, nor the “board game” type rules like JP2, but that balance is there

    #13 3 months ago

    Is 12" considered deep or shallow? Just asking for a friend.

    #14 3 months ago
    Quoted from JethroP:

    Is 12" considered deep or shallow? Just asking for a friend.

    Not sure, are we talking ste or std?

    #15 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    What is with the shift from shallow games being good to only deeper games being good? Why are we saying that deep games that take 30 to 40 minutes to beat are the best? I'm surprised that this shift happened to quickly.

    I took a look at your collection (wishlist, etc)... YOU are the one saying that dude.

    #16 3 months ago

    Good game titles what you ( or your wife ) enjoy .

    Shane

    #17 3 months ago

    I like a mix of shallow and more complex games, diversity is best. Some days i feel for some mindless flipper bashing and other days I want to try conquer a wizard mode (which I never succeeds with sadly).

    #18 3 months ago

    Deep Game - when I have an hour or two to play.
    Shallow Game - when I have a few minutes or some time between tasks. I also find these are often more fun with guests/multiple players. Less time waiting for your turn.

    Love them both.

    #19 3 months ago

    My phone and fat fingers. Ste was "are." Lol. Don't ask.

    As for what I mean, when people say games like mm, afm and mb are over rated, they immediately say because they are too shallow. So it got me thinking.

    #20 3 months ago

    People expect deep code on nib games when spending big money plain and simple. Deep code means more game to explore and lots of challenges to keep you busy for a while.

    #21 3 months ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    I shake my head with every stern reveal, as some guy tries to explain all these modes and stacking horseshit...blah blah blah.
    I just go out to my garage and turn on Firepower, Paragon, or Black Hole and enjoy simple perfection.
    If your game needs a thousand rules, to be good than the designers have missed the point.
    Message from the Freeeek Kingdom.

    You also have 18 games to choose from when 99% of people don’t have the money or space for a collection larger than 1-4 games.

    I think the term “deep” isn’t a very good one to describe a pinball machine. Pinball is inherently not “deep” because it is limited by being a physical box. In my mind a “deep” game is one that offers a variety of things to accomplish and a variety of ways to reach those accomplishments. The goal ultimately is to allow the player remain challenged/interested with the game for a longer period of time.

    #22 3 months ago

    I am just back and forth on what I want my next game to be. Being a relatively poor man in the hobby, it takes a lot of deliberation for me. A huge part of me wants monster bash or afm next, if not for myself but for guests that come over. Everyone that comes play pinball flocks to woz, but trying to tell them the rules is almost embarrassing lol. I figured now that I have 2 deep games and 2 semi-deep games, now would be a good time to get one that takes two seconds to understand.

    #23 3 months ago

    I think both Iron Man and TNA are considered really good modern games, and they are not exactly the deepest of games.

    #24 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    I am just back and forth on what I want my next game to be. Being a relatively poor man in the hobby, it takes a lot of deliberation for me. A huge part of me wants monster bash or afm next, if not for myself but for guests that come over. Everyone that comes play pinball flocks to woz, but trying to tell them the rules is almost embarrassing lol. I figured now that I have 2 deep games and 2 semi-deep games, now would be a good time to get one that takes two seconds to understand.

    I would highly highly recommend AFM over MB. While not super deep in terms of sheer number of modes, the AFM code has a wonderful variety different things to do and ways to approach those goals. The saucer also require a lot of strategy around how to manage multi balls. MB literally has 6 modes that are nothing but hitting the same shot over and over again and that’s it... with a minor layer of strategy around trying to start the modes at the same time. Almost every game of MB I played felt the same.

    #25 3 months ago

    I say let people only like the deep games. That opens up the floodgates to sell System 11's to me cheap. LOL

    I play to have fun, and usually not to think too much. Pinball for me is an escape, and I pretty much suck at it, so shallow rules are fine for me personally.

    Chris

    #26 3 months ago

    Variety is the spice of life. Too much of one thing is never good, so it’s always best to mix things up. If you can do it, that’s ideal. A deep pin or two mixed with something more shallow spread over the last four decades. If you do that, then you will always have something to hold your interest no matter what mood your in on a particular day.

    #27 3 months ago

    If money is tight, stop buying NIB games. There are hundreds of great games that can be had for a fraction of the $$ of a NIB game. Plus, then when you sell it to pick something else up, you don't lose money generally (unlike NIB games). There are more to the 90s games than the three remakes. Shadow, CFTBL, WCS, Indy 500, TZ, Funhouse, Congo, BSD, STTNG, TAF, WH2O etc....all great. Pick up an early solid state game (some of which are still cheap) like Meteor or Firepower or Flash Gordon. These are perfect for multi-player games as the ball times are short and the rules are easy to explain.

    #28 3 months ago

    What you need in your collection jorant is something like a Joker Poker IMO.

    I am temporarily housing a friend’s collection and find myself playing his games (including Joker Poker) more than anything else. Easy to understand, awesome to play. When it ends up leaving I will be looking to get one for myself.

    #29 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    My phone and fat fingers. Ste was "are." Lol. Don't ask.
    As for what I mean, when people say games like mm, afm and mb are over rated, they immediately say because they are too shallow. So it got me thinking.

    This changes everything.....

    #30 3 months ago

    I second the thoughts on Joker Poker. I have one and it gets played a ton. Very easy to understand and addictive to play. Looks great as well and can be found at a reasonable price.

    #31 3 months ago

    I think part of this belief is the idea of getting their money's worth. Like for some people, pinball has to be loaded with features and toys and modes. I understand it, but at the same time, it doesn't apply to me, especially when I have such a vivid imagination and smoking weed certainly doesnt hurt either. In other words, I dont need all the bells and whistles or A-list Hollywood themes to get the experience of having fun with a machine that some may consider too shallow or basic.

    For me, less is more. Especially when its an original theme and has a quality combination of layout, artwork, and sound. Plus good rules not too deep, not to shallow. Video screens do nothing for me.

    Games that are fun but challenging, with short ball times are the best for me. I had mostly 90s machines when I started collecting Great machines. I still own a couple. But now I really dig the 70s and 80s stuff. They are also the best multiplayer games because you're not waiting around too long, but when a player has a good ball, it's exciting to watch. Centaur is my all time favorite, if I had to choose. Of course, there are modern gems here and there, like Rick & Morty.

    If its pinball, i'll play it! I just no longer have the desire to own any modern pins that are loaded with features, when there are plenty of older pins with high quality at lesser prices.

    #32 3 months ago

    Well, I think the answer is simply that people are not playing on location and have not been for the last 6 months. If your gonna have a game at home and that’s the only Pinball your gonna have access to, of coarse your gonna want to have a super deep rule set and play for house. On location, no one wants to watch someone play a JJP game for 25 minutes before they get their turn. It’s the difference between playing alone and playing with friends most of the time.

    #33 3 months ago

    The shift from operators/arcades being the majority buyer to home use being the majority buyer.
    I wouldn't say they are better but it just takes loner to learn and complete the games. I personally don't care if the game is shallow or deep but I have a lare collection so hardly play the same game twice in a month.

    #34 3 months ago

    I guess there are 100’s of shallow games you could buy from pre 2000. No need to keep making any more.

    #35 3 months ago
    Quoted from JonCrox:

    Someone said it well elsewhere on the forum, in the past the games were designed to take your 50 cents but now they're designed to take your $7000-$10,000....

    This 100% totally new market these days.

    #36 3 months ago
    Quoted from FrederikFrost:

    I think both Iron Man and TNA are considered really good modern games, and they are not exactly the deepest of games.

    I agree with this, but must add that because TNA is so "shallow" I only play it with other people. (I dont own it, we have it at our private location)

    Otoh, I do play Stern Kiss alone all the time. Not very deep either.

    #37 3 months ago
    Quoted from JonCrox:

    Someone said it well elsewhere on the forum, in the past the games were designed to take your 50 cents but now they're designed to take your $7000-$10,000....

    Yea, home users are probably on average into deeper games, to keep them viable for a long time in a home settings.

    #38 3 months ago
    Quoted from FrederikFrost:

    I think both Iron Man and TNA are considered really good modern games, and they are not exactly the deepest of games.

    TNA is awesome, but if i were to have it at home, i would need more games for variety.

    #39 3 months ago

    You are going to get a lot more feedback and praise on newer games that are deeper simply because that’s what’s easiest to find on location. The remakes available are relatively deep but you are unlikely to find a mid 90s game on location anymore. There are plenty of exceptions especially in the area I live but most sites you are going to see newer stuff.

    It’s quite possible a newer pinball enthusiast who hasn’t played much off route hasn’t seen a game that has a 7 segment display.

    #40 3 months ago

    The shift from location play to the home market has created the need for a “deeper” game. Unfortunately pinball is not a video game, but new buyers spending thousands of dollars on games want a deeper code to keep them interested. Games in the 70s, 80s and 90s were designed to keep you busy for a couple minutes for a quarter then keep you coming back for a high score. There was no virtually no home market and as long as money kept coming in to operators/pinball companies there was no push to develop “deep” pins. Also the computing power had limitations on how much code/software could be implemented, so games were more simple.

    #41 3 months ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    I shake my head with every stern reveal, as some guy tries to explain all these modes and stacking horseshit...blah blah blah.
    I just go out to my garage and turn on Firepower, Paragon, or Black Hole and enjoy simple perfection.
    If your game needs a thousand rules, to be good than the designers have missed the point.
    Message from the Freeeek Kingdom.

    Hell yeah, you know it!

    #42 3 months ago
    Quoted from JonCrox:

    Someone said it well elsewhere on the forum, in the past the games were designed to take your 50 cents but now they're designed to take your $7000-$10,000....

    Thus they need to be "deep" to keep you coming back for more for years. NOT paying $9k for a shallow pos.

    Or go buy a Firepower, Paragon or Black Hole for $1,500 and enjoy simplicity.

    #43 3 months ago

    I get the home market thing and having pins that “take you on an adventure” But to each’s own. Time and a place for everything. I prefer pinball in a simpler form but a long playing mode based “adventure pin” has its place and creates contrast in a collection I think. Either way I’m much more drawn to a game when pinball is the main focus and is just pure fun. I’m ok with Code taking a backseat If it just has that pure pinball vibe. If you want long adventures maybe video games are a better hobby

    #44 3 months ago
    Quoted from jawjaw:

    People expect deep code on nib games when spending big money plain and simple.

    I expect good code, doesn't have to be deep. Loved my time with BK3. What a nice change from deep adv style pins. Worth every cent.

    #45 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    I am just back and forth on what I want my next game to be. Being a relatively poor man in the hobby, it takes a lot of deliberation for me. A huge part of me wants monster bash or afm next, if not for myself but for guests that come over. Everyone that comes play pinball flocks to woz, but trying to tell them the rules is almost embarrassing lol. I figured now that I have 2 deep games and 2 semi-deep games, now would be a good time to get one that takes two seconds to understand.

    I have a MB - looking for AFM. But the MB is simple but really fun for me. Been playing regularly for over a year and still have just as much fun. 10/10 would recommend. Plus guests and people unfamiliar with pinball love it.

    #46 3 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    What is with the shift from shallow games being good to only deeper games being good? Why are we saying that deep games that take 30 to 40 minutes to beat are the best? I'm surprised that this shift happened to quickly.
    One of my favorite games ever is as deep as a puddle: doctor who. I like games that make you want to play "just like more time." I feel deep games don't have that same appeal.
    What's going on here? Am I crazy?

    It's all the newbs looking for a video game experience. Go back to your Xbox.

    P.s. Not all newbs fall into this embarrassing category. Some are cool.

    #47 3 months ago

    At first glance...I thought the title said Deeproot games....

    #48 3 months ago

    I hate long playing games... for myself I like quick easy rule sets but there has to be some risk reward, hard shots and I like it to have basic strategies. I have all types of games but really it’s the older simpler ones that keep me coming back for more but I do love the new ones for what they offer as far as sound light etc but if it’s something I need to play for an hour to get the game experience than no thanks.

    #49 3 months ago

    I like simple rule with awesome ramps or games are very brutal. Nowadays I hardly play my TSPP, because i need to play at least 30mins in one game before I could enjoy the whole thing. In result, I am looking for a Steve Ritchie’s designed pinball machine. I believe Start Trek (Bally / Stern) would be good fit for me. However, finding either one in NZ is very difficult.

    #50 3 months ago

    Gotta justify dropping the money on boutique tables somehow.

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