(Topic ID: 84502)

Why solder ... ?

By NPO

10 years ago


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    There are 84 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 10 years ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    Had no idea coil wiring had some kind of hyper-thin insulation.

    haha, without it the coil would just be a big, fat, dead short.

    9 years later
    -4
    #52 1 year ago

    I think by the time our machines were made, it was easier and cheaper to solder the connectors. Otherwise a lot of cable looms must be pre assembled, and connection still needs time. In the automotive industry, always connectors are used. They usually have simple locks, but for cirtical use, such as airbag systems, they have extra security locks. I am sure they still cost more than soldering.
    I just had a broken solder on my HS fliper coil, and I don't have any soldering tools (I know, I shoud buy one), so just crimped using a spade connector. I think it's a much better solution. It's so thight I am sure it won't ever come off.

    #53 1 year ago

    edit Didn’t realize this thread was long dead.

    #54 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    I think by the time our machines were made, it was easier and cheaper to solder the connectors. Otherwise a lot of cable looms must be pre assembled, and connection still needs time. In the automotive industry, always connectors are used. They usually have simple locks, but for cirtical use, such as airbag systems, they have extra security locks. I am sure they still cost more than soldering.
    I just had a broken solder on my HS fliper coil, and I don't have any soldering tools (I know, I shoud buy one), so just crimped using a spade connector. I think it's a much better solution.

    It's almost like you did not read any of the detailed comments/explanations in this thread prior to posting.

    Quoted from tlantos:

    It's so thight I am sure it won't ever come off.

    It will. Once it gets hot and vibrates, the metal will get soft, loosen, heat up, tarnish, build up more internal resistance, burn, or if you're lucky, just fall off.

    16
    #55 1 year ago

    I love that this thread keeps helping others new and old to the community!

    I saw this title and was like "what an idiot question..." and then saw I was the author and swore I'd keep that awkward realization secret, so please don't tell!

    #56 1 year ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    I love that this thread keeps helping others new and old to the community!
    I saw this title and was like "what an idiot question..." and then saw I was the author and swore I'd keep that awkward realization secret, so please don't tell!

    I was just thinking, I bet you know much more now than you did then

    -4
    #57 1 year ago

    <blockquote cite
    It will. Once it gets hot and vibrates, the metal will get soft, loosen, heat up, tarnish, build up more internal resistance, burn, or if you're lucky, just fall off.

    Quoted from sparky672:

    It's almost like you did not read any of the detailed comments/explanations in this thread prior to posting.

    It will. Once it gets hot and vibrates, the metal will get soft, loosen, heat up, tarnish, build up more internal resistance, burn, or if you're lucky, just fall off.

    I have read it through
    I don't see any risk in home use. I used similar connection in my car (poor roads do much more vibration) and never had any issues.

    #58 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    I don't see any risk in home use.

    Nearly everyone here is also talking about "home use". At least when you eventually burn out your coil, you won't have to solder a new one in.

    Quoted from tlantos:

    I used similar connection in my car (poor roads do much more vibration) and never had any issues.

    Electrically, cars and pinball machines are two completely different animals. Different voltages, different loads, spikes from collapsing electromagnetic fields... you know what happens when a field collapses, right?

    Otherwise, I don't need to explain this further, since about 40+ posts already beat that horse.

    -3
    #59 1 year ago
    Quoted from sparky672:

    Electrically, cars and pinball machines are two completely different animals. Different voltages, different loads, spikes from collapsing electromagnetic fields...

    You are right. My car has a 201V battery, and the HSD uses 650V. Slightly higher, than a pinball

    #60 1 year ago

    A strong shiny and well executed soldering joint has an effective resistance of 0.00 ohms. A poor solder joint or any type of connector has something higher than that on day one, and the resistance increases over time and after connect/disconnect cycles. The resistance we are talking about is very small BUT NOT ZERO, which means the power is converted to HEAT. Over time and due to the high currents involved with driving coils, failures will be more likely with a poor solder joint or any type of crimp connector- even one installed properly. It's all about age of the connection, the current flowing, any oxidation that occurs, varying mechanical pressure in the crimp, and overall contact area between lug/spade and crimp. For a lower maintenance design, well-done soldering is usually preferred by manufacturers for higher current applications (and even for lower power applications that have long lifespans)

    That said, each person can do whatever they like to their machine. People have varying skills associated with soldering and crimping. A pinball machine usage can range from continuous play to once a year kind of thing. And pinball machines can last for 40 years or more. So there are alot of variables to consider.

    #61 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    My car has a 201V battery, and the HSD uses 650V. Slightly higher, than a pinball

    Quoted from sparky672:

    spikes from collapsing electromagnetic fields... you know what happens when a field collapses, right?

    I guess you don't. Good luck to you.

    -------------

    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    A strong shiny and well executed soldering joint has an effective resistance of 0.00 ohms.

    Exactly. It's amazing the lengths people will go in order to avoid doing it properly.

    #62 1 year ago

    I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :twisted:Gottliebs in the mid seventies had their chime boxes factory wired with crimp connectors. Not saying it's the right way to do it, but it seemed to work well for them.

    #63 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bodean:

    I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :twisted:Gottliebs in the mid seventies had their chime boxes factory wired with crimp connectors. Not saying it's the right way to do it, but it seemed to work well for them.

    It's all about what will work and at what cost over the warranty period and the lifespan of a product. As an engineer, it's easy to design a product that will work for a year, and not even consider if/when it will fail afterwards. Saves money and the manufacturer cares a lot less after the warranty period expires. Poor designs happen all the time....

    #64 1 year ago
    Quoted from Bodean:

    I shouldn't do this, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here. :twisted:Gottliebs in the mid seventies had their chime boxes factory wired with crimp connectors. Not saying it's the right way to do it, but it seemed to work well for them.

    Not sure that is really devils advocate. The chime box isn't even attached to the playfield. The coils that are attached to the playfield were soldered still on those games.

    #65 1 year ago

    True. But I would argue that chime box coils take the most abuse of any coils in the game. (Even flippers) They are constantly firing. Of all the wedgeheads I've had come through here, chime box wiring has never been an issue. (Unless it was hacked) Burnt coils, yes, but connectors, no. I think it's quite a testimonial to the connectors they used that they are still working 40-50 years later.

    Now, that being said, I think the reason they used spade connectors was for easy swap out of the chime box when a coil fried. Lots easier just to swap the box than to tear it down on site and swap a coil.

    #66 1 year ago

    Yes. That’s why they used those I believe. Not better. Faster for repairs.

    #67 1 year ago

    Didn't wms use spade connectors on coils then solder them? Pin2k era

    #68 1 year ago
    Quoted from Zitt:

    Didn't wms use spade connectors on coils then solder them? Pin2k era

    Yes, I remember a bunch of WMS machines that had coils with full-on spade lugs, which then had the wire wrapped around it or in a few cases pushed into the tiny hole in the center of the spade lug and soldered. I guess the coil itself was manufactured so that it *COULD* have been used either way....

    #69 1 year ago

    I was told, back in the day, that the primary reason Gottlieb used push-on connectors on their chimes, was to allow operators an easy way to disconnect the chimes at the location’s request

    #70 1 year ago
    Quoted from Mthomasslo:

    I was told, back in the day, that the primary reason Gottlieb used push-on connectors on their chimes, was to allow operators an easy way to disconnect the chimes at the location’s request

    Makes sense

    -3
    #71 1 year ago
    Quoted from sparky672:

    I guess you don't. Good luck to you.
    -------------

    I guess you don't know anything about hybrid cars

    #72 1 year ago

    I use spade connectors too. forever faithful. semper fidelis amici

    #73 1 year ago
    Quoted from Mthomasslo:

    I was told, back in the day, that the primary reason Gottlieb used push-on connectors on their chimes, was to allow operators an easy way to disconnect the chimes at the location’s request

    It would be interesting to have someone from the manufacturing here.
    Probably they never designed these to run for decades, so easy and quick servicing was not an issue.

    #74 1 year ago
    Quoted from Markharris2000:

    Yes, I remember a bunch of WMS machines that had coils with full-on spade lugs, which then had the wire wrapped around it or in a few cases pushed into the tiny hole in the center of the spade lug and soldered. I guess the coil itself was manufactured so that it *COULD* have been used either way....

    Yes. the coils are all designed for either method of connection. we all have a choice, and preferences matter in this world full of choices. I love using spade connectors. SCFL. spade connectors for life !!! start the movement! today!

    #75 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    I guess you don't know anything about hybrid cars

    Dude, you don't even know how to solder. You can't claim to be an expert on hybrid cars now.

    #76 1 year ago

    As a point of reference, most SS machines (e.g. the WMS WPC89/95 machines) have a POWER DRIVER PCB with molex connectors along the bottom of the PCB that 'age' over time. (J109/J120, etc) Those power/coil handling connectors in many cases BURN out entirely, but in most cases where they dont fail, you will see some amount of browning or blackening discoloration on the nylon shell. That is from heat and over time WILL fail entirely. That is EXACTLY the same issue we are talking about here. The metal to metal on the POWER DRIVER pins have a minor amount of resistence, and over time the oxidation and debris and mechanical pressure fit changes, causing more heat and more deterioration, and over and over until it melts down to failure and needs to be fixed.

    Again, extreme example, but want to have a pinball specific baseline for this somewhat 'academic' discussion.

    #77 1 year ago

    Not another cargument?

    -1
    #78 1 year ago
    Quoted from sparky672:

    Dude, you don't even know how to solder. You can't claim to be an expert on hybrid cars now.

    I know how to do it, this is why I do NOT do it

    #79 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    It would be interesting to have someone from the manufacturing here.
    Probably they never designed these to run for decades, so easy and quick servicing was not an issue.

    Williams already talked about it when they started using connectors like you describe around 1998 or so on late wpc95 and pin2k machines. Their stated reason (in the late 90s) was to make it easier to service the game. The real reason is that the wiring harnesses were made somewhere else (still in one of their factories) and the connectors enabled them to test the harness there. The underlying reason is that the connectors sped up assembly (at the cost of long term reliability, which yes, they did not care about as much which is why a lot of these choices were made.)

    The honest realization is that you do NOT need to be removing assemblies as much as people think. You rebuild it once correctly, and it will last for years. If it fails quickly on a location, you didn't rebuild it correctly.

    Pop the coil stop off and let the coil hang by its soldered connections. It's not hard.

    #80 1 year ago
    Quoted from tlantos:

    I guess you don't know anything about hybrid cars

    None of the high-voltage or high-current connections on those cars are using spade connectors. None.

    #81 1 year ago
    Quoted from slochar:

    Williams already talked about it when they started using connectors like you describe around 1998 or so on late wpc95 and pin2k machines. Their stated reason (in the late 90s) was to make it easier to service the game.

    Figures. I had one of the flipper coil connectors slip off on Revenge From Mars and shorted to the connector next to it. Took out it's drive transistor. Yup way easier.

    LTG : )
    Disclaimer : Never trust the industry when they claim something will make anything easier. They just invent new problems.

    #82 1 year ago

    I like spade shovels.

    #83 1 year ago

    Learned to tin the lug AND wire, before soldering together, from this thread. Thank you

    #84 1 year ago
    Quoted from MiniPinHead:

    Learned to tin the lug AND wire, before soldering together, from this thread. Thank you

    The most important part is for the net-net result to be a shiny connection. If the soldered connection turns cloudy, crystal looking or matte finished, it's called a COLD solder joint, and usually viewed as a problem in the making. If you add just the right amount of heat, to a wire and lug that were previously tinned and are put together mechanically tight, the solder will flow fully. Letting it cool slowly, and the result will be shiny. If not shiny, try reheating again and let it cool without touching anything. You must be using electronic, rosin core solder, which should make the solder flow, and if it cools slowly, you should be all set with a strong and shiny connection. DO NOT LEAVE A COLD SOLDER JOINT. Fix it before you lower the playfield or you will be struggling a year or two down the road (or the next owner will be).

    There are 84 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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