(Topic ID: 245267)

Why so many wires?


By Dr-pin

5 months ago



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  • 39 posts
  • 16 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by wayout440
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    #1 5 months ago

    I´m a bit puzzled by the use of so much wiring, when modern technique is available, and yes you can have modern teqnique and yet easily replacable and manageable machines.

    ex.

    Why not mill four groves into the bottom of the playfield, two for low voltage (+ -) and two for higher voltage needs.
    Spray the groves with plastic liner for safety and zero risk of leakage.

    Maybe it´s even plausable to have just two groves (i dont know the possible wattage-outtake from bumpers etc during for example a multiball)

    Use digital switches or resistor-line technique for all sensory input.
    Use digital leds for lighting.
    Use same control-wire (as the leds) from led-controller to controll high energy items, such as bumpers, toys etc.

    Where energy is needed get it from the groves.

    This means you will have a total of two wires, and connectors locally to the groves and that´s it.

    All serviceable by a layman.
    If you then standardize ingoing, outgoing controller and the computer, you´ll have overview, serviceability and sustainabilty.

    Sorry for any wonky expressions and errononous wording. English is not my forte.

    -1
    #2 5 months ago

    Groves?

    #3 5 months ago

    Sounds groovy to me.

    #4 5 months ago

    Oh yeah get your groove on.

    #5 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Sorry for any wonky expressions and errononous wording. English is not my forte.

    Please excuse him, he obviously didnt read to the bottom of your post.

    Not sure why they did it the way they do, but I know they are building them as cheap as possible these days, so if there was a cheaper way in sure it would be done already. Service is not their first concern. Profit is.

    #6 5 months ago

    That's actually a very smart idea. Based on my limited knowledge you would have a high voltage and low voltage groove and then the ground wires all need to go to the cpu

    #7 5 months ago

    I’m guessing cost is why. I’d imagine you might double the cost of the wires, components, LEDs etc. Not to mention while maybe more user friendly to fix it costs a lot more to fix as you’re using these new items vs components that are readily available all over in mass amounts and interchangeable from pin to pin.

    #8 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    I´m a bit puzzled by the use of so much wiring, when modern technique is available, and yes you can have modern teqnique and yet easily replacable and manageable machines.
    ex.

    Why not mill four groves into the bottom of the playfield, two for low voltage (+ -) and two for higher voltage needs.
    Spray the groves with plastic liner for safety and zero risk of leakage.
    Maybe it´s even plausable to have just two groves (i dont know the possible wattage-outtake from bumpers etc during for example a multiball)
    Use digital switches or resistor-line technique for all sensory input.
    Use digital leds for lighting.
    Use same control-wire (as the leds) from led-controller to controll high energy items, such as bumpers, toys etc.
    Where energy is needed get it from the groves.
    This means you will have a total of two wires, and connectors locally to the groves and that´s it.
    All serviceable by a layman.
    If you then standardize ingoing, outgoing controller and the computer, you´ll have overview, serviceability and sustainabilty.
    Sorry for any wonky expressions and errononous wording. English is not my forte.

    If I'm picturing what you're saying right, what you're suggesting is what I'd call a bus. I'm an auto technician, and cars have both power bus bars in the fuse boxes and data buses for network module communication.

    #9 5 months ago

    Eventually JJP will go to a node board system like everyone else. That will get rid of most of the redundant wiring along with the transformer.

    #10 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Why not mill four groves into the bottom of the playfield, two for low voltage (+ -) and two for higher voltage needs.
    Spray the groves with plastic liner for safety and zero risk of leakage.
    Maybe it´s even plausable to have just two groves (i dont know the possible wattage-outtake from bumpers etc during for example a multiball)

    What happens when you need to install a sling shot assembly, or any other under-play field part and one of the mounting screws will land in the middle of one of the grooves? In other words, how would it be possible to cut grooves into the play field and not have interference problems with all of the play field parts?

    Where would the grooves be located? Along one side of the play field? Or would they be located in the middle of the play field?

    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Where energy is needed get it from the groves.
    This means you will have a total of two wires, and connectors locally to the groves and that´s it.

    Assume you place the grooves along the right hand side of the play field. And over in the upper left of the play field, there is a vertical up kicker. How are going to connect the VUK to something in the groove that is on the opposite side of the play field ?

    #11 5 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    What happens when you need to install a sling shot assembly, or any other under-play field part and one of the mounting screws will land in the middle of one of the grooves? In other words, how would it be possible to cut grooves into the play field and not have interference problems with all of the play field parts?
    Where would the grooves be located? Along one side of the play field? Or would they be located in the middle of the play field?

    Assume you place the grooves along the right hand side of the play field. And over in the upper left of the play field, there is a vertical up kicker. How are going to connect the VUK to something in the groove that is on the opposite side of the play field ?

    You design the playfield with their location in mind...that seems self explanatory. The metal trough wouldn't have to be a straight line

    #12 5 months ago
    Quoted from PinballTilt:

    You design the playfield with their location in mind...that seems self explanatory. The metal trough wouldn't have to be a straight line

    Oh, so now we are talking about "the" metal trough? Where did that come from? Why does there need to be a metal trough instead of just some grooves cut into the underside of the play field?

    When I think of a play field, I see two flippers and maybe three. Two sling shots. A VUK. Maybe a saucer, or two. Several rollover switches with at least four rollovers associated with just the inlanes/outlanes. 2 or 3 pop bumpers. Not to mention all of the lights all over the place.

    When you say "the metal trough wouldn't have to be in a straight line", I see grooves cut into a piece of plywood that winds around chasing all of the parts on the play field. Grooves that do a good job of weakening the integrity and strength of the ply wood play field.

    And now, the play field designer, while still trying to figure out where he/she is going to place all of the parts on top of the play field, now has to figure out how he is going to route the grooves, as well? Like, "damn, I can't make a groove work in this spot so I guess I will need to relocate a couple of pops so they will work with the groove".

    When you say "the metal trough wouldn't have to be in a straight line", I see this.

    Motorplex_Arial3_1 (resized).jpgimages (resized).jpgimages-1 (resized).jpg

    #13 5 months ago

    You would need a lot more than two grooves to cover all the different voltages and signals. This would greatly limit real estate for playfield parts and machinery. The node/network topology is, at the present time, one of the best options to limit bulky wiring. We use a form of it in our Axia mixing console systems. A single standard networking cable to transport high quality instead of a bundle of analog audio cables.

    #14 5 months ago

    Serial is the way to go but much like nuclear power being the best way to create electricity some disasters have scared everyone away from using it.

    Pins didn't have 3 Mile Island they had WOZ 7.5V board fix! And just like Chernobyl it was an engineering mistake to blame (human) not the concept.

    #15 5 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Eventually JJP will go to a node board system like everyone else. That will get rid of most of the redundant wiring along with the transformer.

    Node boards are terrible for The customer. You cant fix things and if The company goes under or stop support., you May end up with a broken very expensive toy. It also tends to be very costly for The customer, since you're at the mercy of the manufacturer, same as with modern cars.

    There is a Great advantage with nodeboards, and that is if you want to modulate power in low voltage systems over distance, but last time i checked 30 yard long pinball machines aren't a dime a dozen.
    Well, that said there are some advantage for The manufacturer. You get easier assembly and you can keep Milk The customer on money, especially if thoose boards are cheap and of low quality.

    #16 5 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    Oh, so now we are talking about "the" metal trough? Where did that come from? Why does there need to be a metal trough instead of just some grooves cut into the underside of the play field?
    When I think of a play field, I see two flippers and maybe three. Two sling shots. A VUK. Maybe a saucer, or two. Several rollover switches with at least four rollovers associated with just the inlanes/outlanes. 2 or 3 pop bumpers. Not to mention all of the lights all over the place.
    When you say "the metal trough wouldn't have to be in a straight line", I see grooves cut into a piece of plywood that winds around chasing all of the parts on the play field. Grooves that do a good job of weakening the integrity and strength of the ply wood play field.
    And now, the play field designer, while still trying to figure out where he/she is going to place all of the parts on top of the play field, now has to figure out how he is going to route the grooves, as well? Like, "damn, I can't make a groove work in this spot so I guess I will need to relocate a couple of pops so they will work with the groove".
    When you say "the metal trough wouldn't have to be in a straight line", I see this.
    [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

    Well you are seeing it The wrong way. Think more like a U-shape going under The table. It will not eliminate wiring but all energy-wiring can be locally attached by a couple of inches of wiring.

    #17 5 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    You would need a lot more than two grooves to cover all the different voltages and signals. This would greatly limit real estate for playfield parts and machinery. The node/network topology is, at the present time, one of the best options to limit bulky wiring. We use a form of it in our Axia mixing console systems. A single standard networking cable to transport high quality instead of a bundle of analog audio cables.

    As i said in my original you need one wire for outgoing signal and one wire going in. The energy supply can easily be managed by two or four "groves".

    Btw what do you need "all different voltage" for?
    You can Light up an airport terminal with five volt lamps and run a washmachine on 12 volts. After all we are talking about 1.5 yard distance here tops. A wire half as thick as a jumper cable can easily support all toys, bumpers etc at for example 12 volts.

    #18 5 months ago

    Coils all run at over 40 volts. Also playfeilds already have warping issues cutting grooves I the back would make it so much worse.

    Also how would you do the switch matrix and insert lighting, yes the voltage is easy but they all need independent wires for control

    #19 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    As i said in my original you need one wire for outgoing signal and one wire going in. The energy supply can easily be managed by two or four "groves".
    Btw what do you need "all different voltage" for?
    You can Light up an airport terminal with five volt lamps and run a washmachine on 12 volts. After all we are talking about 1.5 yard distance here tops. A wire half as thick as a jumper cable can easily support all toys, bumpers etc at for example 12 volts.

    I understand that. I was comparing your transport system to current tech in games: coil power, switch signal power and lamps. Just to run programmable serial LEDs themselves takes 3 wires: ground, supply, and communication. You are not going to run a solenoid off the same voltage supply, nor are you going to run your switches. Then the signals has to get to the individual playfield items....so in my mind I'm thinking the playfield is going to be designed like a large wooden circuit board - is that correct? So what happens in places where these different paths cross? They'll have to be insulated. ...come to think of it: what the heck do you really need a groove for anyway? Electricity isn't bound by a groove. Why wouldn't this just be foil on the surface, but insulated so it doesn't come into contact when it crosses another pa....ah, well - guess we will just use wire.

    #20 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Node boards are terrible for The customer. You cant fix things and if The company goes under or stop support., you May end up with a broken very expensive toy. It also tends to be very costly for The customer, since you're at the mercy of the manufacturer, same as with modern cars.
    There is a Great advantage with nodeboards, and that is if you want to modulate power in low voltage systems over distance, but last time i checked 30 yard long pinball machines aren't a dime a dozen.
    Well, that said there are some advantage for The manufacturer. You get easier assembly and you can keep Milk The customer on money, especially if thoose boards are cheap and of low quality.

    Node boards are bad because they weren't well documented for a long time (still a bit iffy) and because most techs can't do SMD work. It's stupid that a LED on a node board becomes flakey and it's not as simple as replacing a small light bulb.

    I'd be fine if pinball machines utilized a lot of PCBs with through-hole components. A lot of 90s games used them for things like inserts in the middle of the playfield to speed up construction.

    But at the end of the day, the node board concept is the cheapest solution and makes tech support easier on the manufacturer's end.

    #21 5 months ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    Coils all run at over 40 volts. Also playfeilds already have warping issues cutting grooves I the back would make it so much worse.
    Also how would you do the switch matrix and insert lighting, yes the voltage is easy but they all need independent wires for control

    Switches and lighting doesn't need single independent wiring. Not today.
    The 40-50 volts is just a matter of tradition. I hope you're not saying coils can't run on 12 volts?
    Warping is a point, but How much would it cost to add a quarter of an inch to a playfield? 50 dollar? 20 dollar?
    Also think of the wiring it will save you.

    #22 5 months ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    I understand that. I was comparing your transport system to current tech in games: coil power, switch signal power and lamps. Just to run programmable serial LEDs themselves takes 3 wires: ground, supply, and communication. You are not going to run a solenoid off the same voltage supply, nor are you going to run your switches. Then the signals has to get to the individual playfield items....so in my mind I'm thinking the playfield is going to be designed like a large wooden circuit board - is that correct? So what happens in places where these different paths cross? They'll have to be insulated. ...come to think of it: what the heck do you really need a groove for anyway? Electricity isn't bound by a groove. Why wouldn't this just be foil on the surface, but insulated so it doesn't come into contact when it crosses another pa....ah, well - guess we will just use wire.

    Digital leds doesn't need to be acompanied with + and gnd, they can pick it up locally, The reason people think so is because most controller boards have + and ground socketed with the digital, but it's not needed. You arebetter not connect from there, which means less stress for controllerboard.

    You are right on The cirquitboard comparishion, however if you did it so advanced with layers, you probebly wouldn't be able to repair broken cirquits and buying a mirco replacement would cost to much.

    #23 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Warping is a point, but How much would it cost to add a quarter of an inch to a playfield? 50 dollar? 20 dollar?

    Maybe the 50 dollar /20 dollar extra you toss out could be paid for with savings in amount of wire used. But now you have a thicker play field. This means re-engineering new flippers with longer shafts, it means the LEDs will have a longer "reach" before they can shine light under the inserts.

    Maybe what you are thinking about would work. Maybe not. But it would not just be a light bulb moment and, " Hey, this is what we are going to start doing. We don't need to research it. Let's just go ahead and set the line up for a new configuration."

    What you are talking would require much engineering research for cost advantages, assembly line advantages, and a whole host of a lot of other items you have not even considered.

    I think what you are talking would amount to a whole lot of extra work for much not very much gain.

    #24 5 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    Maybe the 50 dollar /20 dollar extra you toss out could be paid for with savings in amount of wire used. But now you have a thicker play field. This means re-engineering new flippers with longer shafts, it means the LEDs will have a longer "reach" before they can shine light under the inserts.
    Maybe what you are thinking about would work. Maybe not. But it would not just be a light bulb moment and, " Hey, this is what we are going to start doing. We don't need to research it. Let's just go ahead and set the line up for a new configuration."
    What you are talking would require much engineering research for cost advantages, assembly line advantages, and a whole host of a lot of other items you have not even considered.
    I think what you are talking would amount to a whole lot of extra work for much very much gain.

    Best post I've seen in a while. This thread is a great example engineering doesn't cost anything, right?

    -3
    #25 5 months ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    Maybe the 50 dollar /20 dollar extra you toss out could be paid for with savings in amount of wire used. But now you have a thicker play field. This means re-engineering new flippers with longer shafts, it means the LEDs will have a longer "reach" before they can shine light under the inserts.
    Maybe what you are thinking about would work. Maybe not. But it would not just be a light bulb moment and, " Hey, this is what we are going to start doing. We don't need to research it. Let's just go ahead and set the line up for a new configuration."
    What you are talking would require much engineering research for cost advantages, assembly line advantages, and a whole host of a lot of other items you have not even considered.
    I think what you are talking would amount to a whole lot of extra work for much very much gain.

    It's a Great compliment When a suggestion that would result in easier construction, repairability and prolongered life, result in....
    "that would maybe require a quarter of an inch longer nuts"

    #26 5 months ago
    Quoted from Turtle:

    Best post I've seen in a while. This thread is a great example engineering doesn't cost anything, right?

    Well nodeboards do seem to cost a lot, especially for the customers.
    I guess that probebly they cost a fair bit to develope for Stern, but they are certainly going to get it back from frustrated customers.

    #27 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    The 40-50 volts is just a matter of tradition. I hope you're not saying coils can't run on 12 volts?

    Sure they could, but not very practical. It's not just a matter of tradition. It's a matter of not wanting to have coils with half an ohm of impedance. Try getting a set of 12v flippers running and tell me how it goes.

    #28 5 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Sure they could, but not very practical. It's not just a matter of tradition. It's a matter of not wanting to have coils with half an ohm of impedance. Try getting a set of 12v flippers running and tell me how it goes.

    No matter what we say, he is right and knows better.
    Cant wait to see his amazing custom futuristic machine that he's building.

    Maybe he can reinvent the automobile also.

    #29 5 months ago
    Quoted from Mitch:

    No matter what we say, he is right and knows better.

    Gotta be all time all time #1 pet peeve. Start a thread asking a question just so you can say everyone is wrong.

    #30 5 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Gotta be all time all time #1 pet peeve. Start a thread asking a question just so you can say everyone is wrong.

    It does seem that way. Now, where can I nominate these awesome posts/responses. 2nd best post TheLaw.

    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    It's a Great compliment When a suggestion that would result in easier construction, repairability and prolongered life, result in....
    "that would maybe require a quarter of an inch longer nuts"

    How are those slings going to work. No re-design, right?

    #31 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    It's a Great compliment When a suggestion that would result in easier construction, repairability and prolongered life, result in....
    "that would maybe require a quarter of an inch longer nuts"

    Keep digging !

    imgres (resized).jpg

    #32 5 months ago

    I don't think asking the question is wrong, I mean, that is how we advance to new ways to do things....but I think the overall thing holding back big redesigns is simply cost.

    #33 5 months ago
    Quoted from John_I:

    Sure they could, but not very practical. It's not just a matter of tradition. It's a matter of not wanting to have coils with half an ohm of impedance. Try getting a set of 12v flippers running and tell me how it goes.

    Agreed and a good point, or as i said in my threadstarter, for practical reasons, you may need four groves.

    #34 5 months ago
    Quoted from Turtle:

    It does seem that way. Now, where can I nominate these awesome posts/responses. 2nd best post TheLaw.

    How are those slings going to work. No re-design, right?

    Are you saying a bolt that goes thru a quarter of inch more plywood will have to be redesigned?

    Would you care to elaborate on that statement?

    #35 5 months ago
    Quoted from Zablon:

    I don't think asking the question is wrong, I mean, that is how we advance to new ways to do things....but I think the overall thing holding back big redesigns is simply cost.

    Agreed the current redesign taking place is for the company making lots more revenue in the aftermarket.
    Which is great for them, but should customers accept it so easily?

    Customers should be in the corner of repairability and secure and cheap replaceability.

    In my view in theese days, with internet, for the first time customers and consumergroups have an opportunity to discuss how they want pinball to develope and show it in what products we choose

    #36 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Agreed and a good point, or as i said in my threadstarter, for practical reasons, you may need four groves.

    groves...Again with the grooves? I don't see the point. Electricity is not bound by them as water in a trough. What were you going to put in the grooves to conduct electricity?

    This is just one path to get ground all around the playfield. Now imagine this x4....and this is a very simple playfield layout.
    b89a63f139e95101d5bab7ca004949e3b057cac4 (resized).jpg

    #37 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Digital leds doesn't need to be acompanied with + and gnd, they can pick it up locally

    Huh? Go back to electronics school. Voltage potential between two points. Current flows between points. That's your absolute minimum to make a circuit. Now to talk to programmable LEDs you need the additional signal line for data to change them. Unless your design has all the playfield lamps only display the exact same thing, we want to know how you are going to instruct a single playfield lamp to turn on. You are either going to use discrete wiring (lots of wires) a matrix (some wires) or programmable LEDs (3 wires). This is just the lamps. Now add coils and switches and tell me again how you can do this "locally" technology.

    If you have some new unknown technology, you are going to be quite a wealthy fellow.
    WS2811_5mm (resized).jpg

    #38 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Are you saying a bolt that goes thru a quarter of inch more plywood will have to be redesigned?
    Would you care to elaborate on that statement?

    Yes, pop bumper rings to short, kickers to short, flipper shafts too short, pop bumper skirts to short, targets to short.

    If you actually think about it anything that goes through the playfeild would be too short.

    #39 5 months ago
    Quoted from Dr-pin:

    Agreed the current redesign taking place is for the company making lots more revenue in the aftermarket.
    Which is great for them, but should customers accept it so easily?
    Customers should be in the corner of repairability and secure and cheap replaceability.

    Well, yes...it's desired but think about the reality of current electronics tech. We've always been heading towards throw away designs and modular designs. Years ago I could replace a lamp on a car for a couple of bucks, now you usually have to replace a whole module. I bought a new dishwashing machine because the control board smoked - the cost of the board was almost as much as buying a whole new machine. If you consider our electronics business as a customer of a PC board manufacturer, it is much the same. Troubleshooting and repairing a small board with a few BGA chips is extremely expensive. Labor time, overhead costs of a BGA X-Ray machine, etc. However, the board is cheaper to manufacture - so the board gets replaced once it is determined that it cannot be economically repaired.

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