was that directed towards me? If so, is this a pin shame attempt?

What does that prove? Why would someone buy a game they don't like? And why would what they do like have anything to do with anything?

I like my hobbit i know there will be several more updates on code within the next year or 2. I'll wait. woz just got a code update and its over 4 yrs old.

It took me over 100 games to figure out how to play it (which is an issue on a route) and even now I don’t fully understand all the rules. It takes a little while to get the game going, but once you do, it’s really quite an immmersive experience. I find I am drawn into this game like no other, except maybe woz. I’m not trying to sway anyone either way, I just feel that there is a bit of an investment of time neeeded for this game, otherwise it will feel like a mb beast bash fest. And yes, it has some drawbacks and needs a bit more polish, but I think we can say that about most games.

If you like the game great. If your looking for the game it will be less than it was yesterday so good deal for you. No code update will change the layout but if you like the shots it will get better. Fact is this game has dropped in value more than any other title in the last 5 years because a lot of owners and players just do not like it. You can't argue with the market, it will tell us the value.

Or they made too many of them...still in production. Most Stern Les and premiums have fallen a lot too. It's not just th.

let’s talk about RZ there were only 300 made but there are always a lot for sale. It’s probably as well represented on the Sale list as SM or TWD or TH.

People want to get close to what they paid are dreaming, one of the cheapest one on the list has been for sale for months.

There is a lot of great pins so if a pin is not great it will have to take a hit.

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Wow, a sub 5k RZ...ouch those sure took a hit.
I saw some WWEs at about 3k (one here for 3300 and one near me for 3k) I imagine that will be the first spike system to drop under 3k

It's not bad game either. Mustang won't be far behind.

lots are heading that direction.

Just the reality of lots of NIB collectors that got in the hobby a few years ago, bought up every new title, and now want other new title but are out os space.

I paid $7500 for my Hobbit. If I can sell it for $6500-$6800 right now, which I don't plan to, that sucks but I can accept it. If I paid $8500 or $9500 it would be harder to stomach. There are other modern games that have dropped in value more then TH, such as RZ LE.

The issue with RZ LE is that many thought it would go up in value simply on the fact that not many were being made. Now we know that rarity alone doesn't determine value.

As for TH I think the game will go up in value over time if the code is polished and completed. The game is bursting with content and features, probably more then any other modern pin, but it really needs an update that provides a more rewarding and cohesive playing experience for playing through multiple book modes.

We have seen first hand how code development impacts game value. WOZ, Star Trek, and Metallica all took a hit in resale value before it's code was properly finished.

I don't play the Hobbit much any more, but I have kids (age 7-11) and when their friends and parents come over this tends to be a game they play the most. I think the theme, sound, and appearance of the game really appeal to them. This is what keeps it in my collection, but if I had a smaller collection or a collection that was only played by myself and league type players it might be gone.

Not sure why people keep saying this. The upper flipper is a key shot sequence to kill Smaug in the Smaug multiball. You can cradle a ball during that multiball sequence to attempt it from the lower flipper, but not the intended shot sequence. When coming out of the barrel pops, if it exits over by the upper flipper, there is a key shot to hit the captive ball for a bonus and some other awards (depending on what mode you are in). The captive ball shot flashes blue for a few seconds when this happens. I'm sure there are other "purposes" for the upper flipper built into coding/mode sequences, but those are a couple of common ones.

I REALLY like my TH, but can understand why some people do not like it. If that was the only pin I had, I would probably get tired of it too. For fast games, I have other pins. But this one is great to escape the world for a half hour or so and get immersed into the game modes. Yes the many multiballs are a "workout", but I love that about this game. We each have our own preferences ... I like both fast games and immersive games, depending on what kind of time or mood I'm in. I have found that playing one on location is usually not a good experience as they are not always setup correctly or you can't hear the call outs and such. Totally agree that when first learning the game it is key to have a spotter to help you until you are able to recognize what to look for and are familiar with the modes.

I think part of the reasons for the lower prices on the few that are out there is like others have said - people want to make space for something new. Operators probably don't want these because of the extra tweaking needed and because new players don't get coached on what shots are needed to progress, which loses interest and loses paid plays - probably the biggest weakness of the game is that coaching is needed to get you to understand the shots and modes better. My opinion is a TH market is for HUO buyers that like long immersive games. Just my opinion.

#100 comment is general,what I like others don't and visa versa. Some negative comments come from people showing no owned pins. There are many titles thrown under the bus that I like and don't own. Take SW I love it but have no room. I personally don't see the need to downgrade viciously pins that others like. I'm no saint but that's just how I was brought up.

Sorry, for ruffled feathers but I try to be positive person and the negativity here sometimes gets the best of me. Played hobbit about one hour last night and for me that's a good thing.
Cheers

HUO THLE price dropped to $6100 here in Florida on a local forum in order to sell...

After owning TH for a year I am still very happy with it. People like to complain about how the code needs this and that and make it sound like it is a terrible game because of it. But remember that there is a ton of great and complex stuff already in the game. Sure the game plays differently from most other machines, but why is that a bad thing? I see it that JJP decided to give players choice on how they want to progress through the game. If you want to just do the simple One Ring mode, that is fine. If you want to try a more complex mode, that is also fine. I still have yet to see the second wizard mode, so not having a final wizard mode means nothing to me.

I love our TH and, as others have said, friends and family tend to migrate to it when they play. If I could change a couple of things:

1) I wish there was a more satisfying shot with the upper flipper, even though trying to hit the "missing scale" and kill Smaug at the end of Smaug multiball is really cool.
2) Sometimes it gets in it's own way and doesn't allow enjoyment of each mode, multiball, etc. It's super immersive, but it's hard to appreciate and enjoy each unique aspect when other modes and multiballs are all going on at the same time.

Hobbit is phenomenal - it's the best modern game to properly integrate its licensed theme. The music is breathtaking, the display is outstanding, the depth of content is unprecedented, and as usual - Keith can take any playfield and make it amazing with his incredible rules.

Unfortunately it got a bad rap for having a shitty reveal, years of delays, and people not giving a crap about the movies.

On top of that, it's the type of game that can't be appreciated fully if it's in a noisy location and you can't hear it.

On top of that, "hobby tastemakers" have changed, and the appreciation of super deep games like TSPP and LOTR are no longer in favor....people want flow flow flow, 3 minute games.

On top of that, you have people who never bothered to understand the game constantly lying about it...the lies about upper flipper doing nothing or it being hard to understand if you don't look up. Absolute lies. The book on the playfield ALWAYS tells you what to do, there are constant call outs about which ramp or object to hit, and the color coding is CONSISTANT - the mode shots are ALWAYS orange, Dwarves are always purple, locks are always green, etc.

Hobbit perfectly accomplishes what it sets out to do as a licensed Hobbit game...it's a beautiful & long quest-style game.

Amen well stated. Now I don't feel so crazy for loving this game.

None of this matters to players, only "theme integration" guys. Games with terrible themes and "integration" and good playfield layouts are always going to be better for players than the hobbit. And yeah, Keith is a Wizard, but code can't save every game. Keith could spend the rest of his life coding up Hobbit and it would still be awful, and he could get reincarnated and spend another lifetime working on WWE and it wouldn't save that game either.

if you don't care about playfield layout, yes, Hobbit might be a great game for you. Everything Rare said about music/theme/etc. is true. And granted, there are plenty of people like that around here. Hobbit is also a great game for "kids/guests/spouses" (ie: people who don't like pinball) because of it's dumb, easy, boring layout and over-the-top bells and whistles. This is a role that many years ago was served by another terrible game, SWE1, and to a lesser extent, RFM.

Thats what I was trying to say above, the code is great as is, game plays great there is TONNES of stuff to do, however some polish and things listed above and a final wizard mode would make it feel complete and better the game.

The best part about this game is it doesn't play like others, I mostly buy Sterns lately, which are great games - however Hobbit is always refreshing to come and play because of not only the added build quality, but it feels so different. Its wide with lots of drop targets, and amazing complexity to the code.

Most people that I dont find like the game haven't played a properly set up one, or played it at a show where its loud, unlevel etc. I know a few guys who after coming and playing mine, and going over the rules have changed their tune and bought one because they see how much it has to offer as a shooters pin.

Good God, you're funny.

Wrong. A game can have both, and a "player" can enjoy the entire experience. No part of a pinball machine exists on its own. All elements work together.

I play my games. I'm a "player". I just like a variety of games if they do want they do well. I like long quests like LOTR & Hobbit, I like 3 minute ass kickers like Iron Man. There is an insane amount of great gameplay for "players" to enjoy in Hobbit. It's not just about looks and sound, but - those things are incredibly well done and there's no shame in enjoying it.

Too many people don't get that.

Really? Tons of people around here love bad games with good art/sound/software/theme packages. Ghostbusters would still have sold a ton if the playfield were just a rehash of Williams' Jubillee

I really like Hobbit. I do think it’s a game for a larger collection. And It seems the biggest criticism is long ball times and heavy multiballs. But, I’d love to play one with no Center post, hard outlanes, and steep pitch. It seems the software supports a more brutal setup too. The game isn’t about playing all 31 modes in one game.

People like different things and become tribal about it at times. Buy what you like, not what others say to like and appreciate the fact that you are fortunate to be able to blow coin on man toys.

Ghostbusters has fundamental problems that keep it from being playable or fun for most PLAYERS. You can say Hobbit is "semetrical" or "boring" ...but all the shots and features work as intended...so, it fundamentally does what the player wants and expects, something Ghostbusters fails at. Hobbit also has tons of content that's relatively random...anyone can play Hobbit and see a lot of different modes, even if they only start a few, something Ghostbusters also fails at.

GB has skated by purely on theme and art.

Hobbit doesn't have the theme love, and while it looks nice, it's still a Photoshopped package which will never get the praise of a 100% hand drawn art package like GB...so, fundamentally those of us who are enjoying it enjoy its gameplay/code.

If you don't like Hobbit, that's fine...not every game is for everyone...but, it's more due to the STYLE of game that it is vs. it being "BAD". I don't like Twilight Zone, but I don't think it's bad. It just doesn't click with me...but I get why people like it.

It has great theme integration. You collect dwarves, journey to the mountain, slay beasts, fight Smaug. Lots of great video, audio, and callouts from the movies wrapped in every single mode and wizard multiballs. What do you find that is not theme based? It is oozing with it...

EDIT: By the way WOZ is well done too. I like WOZ and almost got it over Hobbit but "I" like Hobbit better than WOZ so I have Hobbit. Heck, I like TRON better than AFM so I would rather have TRON in my collection. So it doesn't matter what most people like most, it is what "you" like most.

It's not about that you can't hit them with the lower flippers...it's that the rules set up shots to be hit from the upper flipper. Sometimes when the ball exits from the bumpers, one of the targets below Smaug will flash in light blue to be hit from the upper flipper. There's also a mode where the windlance kickback will launch the ball up to the upper flipper as a setup to hit the targets below Smaug.

You're combining two different things in order to find irony & slam me...

-Math Chess rules are a thing. My opinions on them are opinions. I claim no "truth" about them...other than I don't enjoy them. If you like them, cool.

-When people say you can't tell what to do on Hobbit by looking at the playfield, that's categorically false. The book on the playfield tells you every mode objective. Every orange shot tells you what you should be shooting for during a mode, and other colors consistently indicate other goals as well.

Sold my Hobbit ... after arrival of the DI and pre-order the JJPotC its time for fresh money ... and to be honest, the TH was less played than my old Whirlwind, so I will not miss him. Nearly always the same shots, no success on the mission, games last too long, the theme is mot mine (POTC also but will see how the pin plays) ... So time to say good bye before the price will fall more and more ...

I like TH for what it is. Yesterday I played a pretty long game. On one ball I went from Smaug multiball into beast frenzy into ITF and played through 3 stages. When I was done, I thought I had to call an orthopedic dr.
Hard to hit the start button for a follow up game. Still liking it though.

You can't fix a bad design

The layout and design is what makes the Hobbit unpopular not the flashing lights and integrated video. People complain about the design of Ghostbusters with flipper gap and occasional air balls. Ghostbusters layout is unique and it is fun to play. Unfortunately I have never had fun playing the Hobbit. Owner's can try and defend the game but it appears like the majority of people have come to the same consensus. Also Keith or Stern never finished wizard mode for WOF, probably because it was impossible to get to, same thing for Hobbit who is going to get to wizard mode without the glass off? I am sure coding the wizard mode for Hobbit is a high priority on Keith's list. You can disagree but I agree with Levi, I don't think any code can help improve Hobbit.

That's right Ghostbusters blows Hobbit out of the water!

Oh and the third flipper does NOTHING, but keep pretending it does if it makes you feel better

Couldn't agree more. If the pin doesn't shoot well, it's not going to have broad appeal. Even though simple fan layouts might not be innovative, they've been proven to work when combined with more innovative/complex rule sets.

Balcer's crowning achievement is TSPP. It's unfortunate he didn't come up with a design that trumped TSPP. He's also no longer employed by JJP, which also says something. The JJP/Balcer partnership was short lived.

Dialed In shoots so well. Just got mine and hope to become more knowledgeable about the rules. So far, so good.

snaroff

OK,

I fully understand, now can you explain why some people say the game is slow? I don't understand that. I know it starts out that way but hold on.

Edit :Mine is set up at least 7 degrees.

Im going to have to disagree with you on this point. While there are some here that don't seem to like the game, i would argue that the majority of owners are too busy enjoying and playing their game that they don't have the time or desire to come here and post abut the fun they are having.

I (along with other distributors) have sold 1000's of hobbits. Jjp is continuing to build more of them. For every one person who says they don't like it, 50 say they do (not sure on the numbers, but you get the point).

Not trying to start arguments, but I just don't agree with the "majority" statement.

Another 3rd flipper liar, which proves you haven't played the game much or understand it. And you think GB is FUN!?!! All credibility on pinball opinions LOST. GB is the most unplayable fun-sapping box of vomit & designed by a pedophile. It barely qualifies as "pinball" or a "game". I cancelled mine and bought Hobbit - which shoots FINE & smoothly. The rules use the playfield to the fullest and make you use every spot and feature to the fullest. Best choice I ever made, and a tremendous loss for the people who don't get it.

Because they're playing one set up with the back legs low. It's called gravity. Jack the back legs up and it plays fast like anything else that has gravity applied.

I agree with you on GB It's really not a tremendous loss, since most folks have space constraints and there are plenty of other pins to try/buy.

My lack of enthusiasm for TH is based on a dozen or so games. A THLE was available locally for $6,100 and I almost purchased it (someone else beat me to it). For that price, I'm willing to give it more time to see if it grows on me. Based on my first/second impressions, I would never pay retail for a THLE.

I really think the "bottom line" on The Hobbit's appeal is the depressed street price for the title. It certainly isn't the license or overall beauty (which are first rate).

snaroff

its a game you have to play more than a few times to have the rights to pass judgment.
i hated it when first playing it at the factory then played it at allentown before show opened then it broke down(felt bad for Jack when that happened) but still did not like it. played plenty of games on my buddy's hobbit when first released still not a fan. then code got better and i started taking interest. i made a trade for one, shortly after code 1.91 came out and wow then 2.0 and this game rocks! so much so that i made another trade and acquired one for my son. i am still in awe of the build quality and all this game has to offer, and Keith is promising more code. i personally took advantage of the bad press and landed that second Smuag. love the exclusive smaug intro on that model and hell its the one to have in my opinion as the story is about a hobbit and dwarfs stealing Gold and treasure back from the Dragon Smaug!

I would never pay retail for any of these new games lol. Of course no one should spend $9k on a Hobbit....it if one comes along for about $6k!? I say go for it. At a price between a Stern Pro & Premium, that's a stellar value. I paid $7500 for my Smaug last year. No regrets.

I think that is around the same amount I spent on my X-MEN LE. I have lost my ass on that game and have taken a bath but it is the best bath I ever had. (I will probably never sell anyway)

Goes to show that people can have different opinions on what games are fun and worth the money personally to them. If people enjoy the Hobbit that is great-keep on flipping! It's all good

If this were a GB v XMEN v Hobbit thread; I'd take Hobbit anyday, everyday.

If you enjoy it and don't plan on selling it at the moment, no bath was taken, and market value is irrelevant. When I bought Avatar LE, and I posted how much fun it was, the trolls were in full force berating me on what a monetary loss I would take. They'd never respond to my comments on the fun of the game - only the price. Telling. When I did end up selling it, I got like $200 less than what I paid for it...I enjoyed it for a few years and put about 2000 plays on that machine. There was no "loss" in my eyes.

BTW - how did you end up paying $7500 for X-Men LE? It was about $6300 NIB & the market never really took off on it.

I get the idea behind setting up the scale shot from the upper flipper.

But the target shot doesn't need the upper flipper. It's there, but not necessary.

It is nothing like what you find in a well designed upper flipper game such as TSPP, STTNG, TS, or any other smart design with a legitimate use of a 3rd flipper.

The most valid defense against those who complain about it is "just don't use it." And that defense is only valid because you just don't need it.

As with all games if you like it, then great, if you don't there are plenty of others out there. I think the game will get better with some more code refinements especially if the pop a creature is used less (like once you qualify one it won't pop back up) and there's more reason to do the book modes for points.

Bottom line, if you enjoy a game, keep it and enjoy it. I don't think the actual resell price is that much of a reflection on how people feel about the game. Rather I think it is a reflection of how many NIB options are out there and when you buy one of the most expensive NIB pins you just aren't going to get all of that money back out of it. NIB pins are becoming more like cars, they depreciate the moment you take delivery of them whether you open the box or not. I doubt any of my recent NIB purchases will sell for more than 80% of what they cost me. That means you're losing substantial money on a $9500 pin. I'm on the list to get a pirates so obviously I think it's worth having this over priced toy in my house for a few years even if I lose money when I actually sell it.

Just an FYI, it seems like those that absolutely hate GB are the same ones that love Hobbit, and quite a bit of the reverse too. I considered selling GB and buying a friends Hobbit. I don't think GB is the best game in my collection (and maybe not the worse, RZ is still getting better code), however, no one in my family thought Hobbit would be a step up or even wanted it in the house. They are two totally different games designed for completely different people. GB will make you a better player (and has in our house), and you feel like a god (small g) when you get through the modes and have a stellar game. I'm not sure if Hobbit will make you a better player and even some absolutely stellar games we've had on it (a friend owns one, and the local arcades have them) don't make me want to play it again and definitely not on a weekly or daily basis.

They made a lot of hobbits...
What is the definition of "many" hobbits for sale?