(Topic ID: 199195)

Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays

By twenty84

6 years ago


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  • 483 posts
  • 156 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by wlf_
  • Topic is favorited by 44 Pinsiders

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Post #276 CGC investigates and comments Posted by Doug_Duba (6 years ago)

Post #302 Data from #fishtales Posted by soren (6 years ago)

Post #317 Data from original #attack-from-mars Posted by herg (6 years ago)

Post #460 Conclusions from the OP regarding delay data gathered. Posted by twenty84 (6 years ago)

Post #479 Testing at home? Heed this advice. Posted by woz (6 years ago)


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17
#84 6 years ago

Agree that the variable time is the biggest concern. Since "The shortest time was 1.5 ms, the longest was 4.5 ms. The mean ± SD was 3.4 ± 1.3 ms." I did a few calculations using that overall range.

Recall that Distance = Speed multiplied by time
So, if the ball is traveling 1 meter per second you get:
1 m/s * (0.0015 to 0.0045 sec) = 0.0015 to 0.0045 meters = 1.5 to 4.5 mm... or a variation of 3 mm (which is 0.118 inches)
[For reference 1 m/s = 3.6 km/hr or 2.24 miles per hour)

Put into common terms, if the ball is traveling at 1 meter per second after you press the flipper button the the ball will travel anywhere between 1.5 and 4.5 mm before the flipper acts... and that won't be consistent... one flip will be only 1.5 mm, one will be 4.5 mm, one will be 2.2 mm, ...

You also need to think about the following conditions:
* Trapped ball - very slow
But still.. variable time or response will result in your aim being off
* Ball rolling through inlane - generally moderately slow
Variable time or response will result in your aim being even more off
* Ball coming straight at flipper (for a live catch or drop catch) - from slow to very fast
Variable time or response will result in not being able to catch or control the ball consistently

Now let's turn the above into real speeds based upon https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-fast-does-a-pinball-travel and http://tiltforums.com/t/maximum-ball-speed/2334/20
--> about 10-15 mph after a flip (but that seems to be contested)
--> generally 5 mph?
--> about 3-4 mph in general?
--> about 2.3 mph after a flip

(15 mph = 6.71 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (10.1 to 30.2 mm) --> variation of 20.1 mm or 0.792 inches
(10 mph = 4.47 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (6.7 to 20.1 mm) --> variation of 13.4 mm or 0.528 inches
(5 mph = 2.24 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (3.4 to 10.1 mm) --> variation of 6.7 mm or 0.264 inches
(4 mph = 1.79 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.7 to 8.0 mm) --> variation of 5.4 mm or 0.211 inches
(3 mph = 1.34 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.0 to 6.0 mm) --> variation of 4.0 mm or 0.158 inches
(2.24 mph = 1.00 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.5 to 4.5 mm) --> variation of 3.0 mm or 0.118 inches
(2 mph = 0.89 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.3 to 4.0 mm) --> variation of 2.7 mm or 0.106 inches
(1 mph = 0.45 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (0.7 to 2.0 mm) --> variation of 1.3 mm or 0.053 inches

So even at a very slow speed of 1 mph or 0.45 m/s the impact is >1 mm
and it is a dramatic 4 to 7 mm for typical ball speeds.
This seems very significant to me...

#89 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Since when is the ball travling 1 meter per second coming down the inlane.

Valid point... but I couldn't find any references for that speed...

You can do the math of assuming 1/2 meter per second or 1/4 meter per second and still get to 1.5 to 0.75 mm which is quite a bit as well.

It's going to come down to what the real speed is...

Regardless of that... the ability to drop catch and live catch fast moving ball is also significant

14
#113 6 years ago

I believe human reaction time is a a valid measure but not relative to this discussion of how variable response time to a flipper button press impacts the ability to consistently get the same reaction out of the flipper.

Based upon a little research below... the human brain has a great ability to visualize an object that is moving and to then predict where it will be at a very precise time (this is how baseball players can hit 100 mph pitches which they can't really see or track in real time). The same is true for a pinball moving toward a flipper (whether fast from around an orbit or slow down an inlane). As such, reaction time doesn't matter... it's the brains ability to say I want to flip when the ball is "here" on the flipper... to predict when that will be, and to then actually complete that task (which is done significantly before the ball is actually in that position).

If the delay from pressing the flipper button to the flip is consistent the brain will automatically compensate and then you'll get a predictable and repeatable result (and everything will ultimately be skill based). With a variable delay the result will not be repeateable... and now the result is more "luck" based.

See https://www.livescience.com/29417-how-brain-tracks-moving-objects.html for a brief read... or this quote if you don't care to click:

"When human eyes see an object, it takes one-tenth of a second for the brain to process that information [...]. So how does the brain compensate for the slight delay? The brain does not think the object is in the position where the eye tells us it [that it] is [...] The object is shifted forward in the direction that it's moving, so we're actually predicting where things are going to be."

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