(Topic ID: 199195)

Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays

By twenty84

6 years ago


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  • 483 posts
  • 156 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by wlf_
  • Topic is favorited by 44 Pinsiders

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Post #276 CGC investigates and comments Posted by Doug_Duba (6 years ago)

Post #302 Data from #fishtales Posted by soren (6 years ago)

Post #317 Data from original #attack-from-mars Posted by herg (6 years ago)

Post #460 Conclusions from the OP regarding delay data gathered. Posted by twenty84 (6 years ago)

Post #479 Testing at home? Heed this advice. Posted by woz (6 years ago)


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#50 6 years ago

Awesome thread and I love that you’re looking at the science of this. Sorry for the long post, so skip it unless you’re interested in the science behind this.

1. Some people have mentioned REACTION time of humans being on the order of 200ms. This is not what the OP is trying to demonstrate by measuring the flipper delay and reaction time has absolutely nothing to do with controlled pinball flips. I say controlled flips, because of course reaction time would play a small part in determining the trajectory of the ball once it rebounds off a sling or post or other object and heads off in a different possibly unknown direction at a high speed. Reaction time is measured as response to an unknown timed stimulus. For example, in the link above (Post #38), the user is asked to tap the screen when the green color appears. But the timing of the green is unknown so you are just “reacting” and this is why it takes 200ms or more to tap the screen. In reality, the subject of hitting a flipper when a ball reaches a certain spot on the flipper is TIMING and NOT REACTION TIME. This is similar to what the OP states in post #45.

2. Neurophysiology research doesn’t always agree on what that the limit of human TIMING is, but there is at least one paper (google Hore and Watts) that indicates that the neurophysiological timing is on the order of 1ms for skilled major league pitchers that have to TIME the release of the ball of their fingertips in order to hit a target 90 feet away at 100mph. It’s interesting to note that other papers demonstrate on the order of 9ms for average humans.

3. But, it’s not the timing delay in the remakes that would potentially be a problem to the top skilled players, because they would just include this delay in their brain when doing the internal “calculations” and adjust their timing such that they flip at the nearly exact moment they want to... well, within 1ms if they’re as skilled as some major league pitchers... and there’s no reason to believe they aren’t just as skilled in their TIMING. The real problem would be that if the delay in the flipper response introduced by the circuitry isn’t consistent. The OP states that there is a standard deviation on the order of 1.5ms and this is exactly the problem if you are a person that has a consistent TIMING response on the order of 1ms. It means that for Keith Elwin who plans to hit the flipper within 1ms of when he wants to, he is really hitting it within about 2.5-3ms of when he wants to.

4. Does any of this make a difference??? Well, I haven’t calculated the ball speed down the flipper (from a cradled position) to see how much distance it travels in 2.5ms. That is the next exercise...

As others have already said (in admittedly much shorter posts), I doubt I’ll ever notice with my average 9ms timing brain... but the timballs of the world may notice!!

Edit: Doh timballs... you posted yours a few seconds before I finished typing. Must be your advanced timing skills.

And I even referenced you while writing my research paper post. Ha.

#135 6 years ago

@twenty84, it’s probably just my eyes (or my ignorance), but are you triggering off the EOS connection on the flipper coil in picture 5?

#146 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

Triggering off the switch signal from the opto board which is activated when the flipper button is pressed.

Sorry... didn’t mean trigger I guess. What is the lead in picture 5 connected to on the solenoid?

#149 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

The Bally/Willlams flipper coils have a high power winding that initially fires and a lower power hold winding. These coils are the same part on both the original and remake. Here the black clip is on the center (ground) and the probe is on the high power terminal.

Yes, I was aware of the high and low power (hold current at EOS) but I was thinking you were connected to the low power for some reason when I was looking at the pic. Like I said, must have been my eyes. I thought the low power was the center lug based on some diagrams I saw on the old interwebs... can’t trust that I’m sure.

#158 6 years ago
Quoted from woz:

From the pics of the MMR test, the probes are across the Hold coil.... so I'm not sure what the scope is displaying I would have thought the black ground clip should be on a real ground and the red scope lead on the brown flipper wire in order to get a true display of the power coil timing.
Right Power is Brown wire
Right Hold is Blue wire

From MMRLE Manual

This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier post. I wasn’t sure the leads were hooked to the proper parts of the flipper circuit. Not sure it makes a difference though.

#196 6 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

The data that we have now is all that we need for this issue. A quick set of calculations can show if this is a real problem or not:
According to the last measurements there can be as much as 3.5ms of *random* variation in the software controlling the flipper transistor driver from one shot to the next. This would not affect a shot that you have cradled very much because the ball is going to be rolling very slowly when you release the hold an let the ball roll down the flipper to hit it. An example of a worst case would be a ball exiting an orbit and the player trying to hit it on the fly back into the orbit trying to repeat orbits. In this case the ball is moving quickly and coming at the flipper very fast for a timing shot. Lets say the ball is moving at 4 mph because we know from past studies that the max ball speed in a pinball machine is around 7 mph.
(4 mph) X (5280 feet/mile) x (12 inches/foot) = 253,440 inches per hour the ball is traveling
(253,440 in/hour) / (3600 seconds/hour) = 70.4 inches per second the ball is traveling
(70.4 in/second) / (1000 ms/second) = 0.0704 inches in 1ms of ball travel
0.0704 X 3.5ms = 0.2464 inches maximum variability in point of contact due to this random delay
So the above calculation shows that when directly hitting a fast moving ball at 4 MPH, 3.5 ms of software delay can cause the flipper to strike the ball a quarter inch sooner or later from one shot to the next. There is no doubt in my mind that this will affect the accuracy of this worst case sort of shot. A quarter inch translates to more than a few degrees of flipper movement... As mentioned above, a cradled shot - not so much.

You’re on the right path and thanks for doing the math. But I think you introduced a factor of two accidentally here. The total variance is 3.5ms, which means 1.75ms from the mean. So, it would be 1/8th inch sooner or later from one shot to the next (from the intended mean). Ok, it’s not so much in your math as in your phrasing of “1/4 inch sooner or later” which makes it sound like a total spread of 1/2 inch depending on how you read it.

#215 6 years ago
Quoted from timtim:

I bet some pinsiders wives know what a millisecond feels like

As for my wife, she would say that's about the time it takes for me to start the search for my next pin after I've just bought/setup the current one...

#370 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I feel bad about it this thread and wish I had checked my results better before posting. I think probably when I originally tested AFM the ground wire lost contact on the opto board. That was a difficult connection on pins that were close together and I had to put the connector back on after I hooked the wires around the pins. When the coil fired it pulled enough power to make it look like the opto was firing at the same time once the ground was lost.
I've updated the original post to say the original claim that AFM did not have a delay were in error and both games have a similar variability. Like many I still think the originals have a different flipper feel than the remakes, but with respect to the flipper timing they are similar. I have changed the title of the thread to "Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays"
I think this has spurred some interesting discussion, and I thank all - no almost all - that participated.

As a few others have said... you have nothing to feel bad about. It's human nature to make mistakes and that's what peer review is for (similar to scientific journals). I think those of us that appreciate the science realize that a small mistake can happen to all of us... I'd be lying if I said I hadn't made bigger mistakes than this. Of course, it's fear of this failure that keep people from trying new things. I say keep trying and I definitely learned a lot from this thread.

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