(Topic ID: 199195)

Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays

By twenty84

6 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 483 posts
  • 156 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by wlf_
  • Topic is favorited by 44 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

View topic image gallery

keith-flippergate (resized).png
science (resized).jpg
Pot Kettle (resized).png
humble pie (resized).jpg
IMG_0459 (resized).PNG
IMG_1386 (resized).jpg
IMG_1363 (resized).jpg
450447 (resized).png
images (resized).jpg
pic_13_5 (resized).jpg
pic_13_4 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).JPG
Capture (resized).JPG
IMG_0219.JPG
80ca400414174e25db7ad50ecc2207ae200f5d91 (resized).jpg
e27b59ec9a4cbb8b93e2f831a551675db5d51348 (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

9 key posts have been marked in this topic (Show topic index)

There are 483 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 10.
#351 6 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

Serious question though: why are so many people so insanely defensive about the "plays different" claim? Why all the drama over something so harmless? Different does not mean worse, it just means...not the same.

Probably the same reason you have posted in this thread multiple times claiming that there is a difference. It plays like the really nice originals I have played at PAGG. It feels faster than the beat originals I have played.

We have opposite opinions, which are just that, opinions. You are not stating a fact any more than I am. I have played both, and I do not feel any differences compared to like new original.

#352 6 years ago
Quoted from SuperPinball:

Same could be asked: why are so many people insanely trying to "prove" the claim that they play differently.

No, someone was trying to find an answer, because there's a real and noticeable difference for many. It's always good to try and find the why of things.

17
#353 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I am sorry for all the drama this thread has caused, but I think it provided some interesting discussion. Thanks especially to Doug Skor at CGC for looking into this issue.

You've got nothing to apologize for! You made a serious effort to collect actual data to support your hypothesis, you shared your methods in detail so that others could attempt to recreate your experiment (or critique its design), and when presented with evidence that undermined your findings you went back and double-checked and revised them. All to the good, and many of us learned a bit about flipper timing as a result.

One thought: maybe consider changing the thread title to better match your ultimate conclusions, maybe something more neutral about variable flipper delay times in B/W, CGC, and Stern games?

#354 6 years ago

Maybe with the OG's people chalked it up to the age of the machine and with new one's, all shiny and pretty...brand new smooth playfield they "think" it should shoot better or something. This has to have a psychological element.

Either way, should title now be "Why the remakes play EXACTLY like the originals"? Something like that.

#355 6 years ago

The ball is wild ... and apparently so are the flippers!

#356 6 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

should title now be "Why the remakes play EXACTLY like the originals"? Something like that.

That goes too far in the other direction. I haven't noticed a categorical difference b/w original and remake games (that couldn't be explained by playfield wear, peeling mylar, etc.), but plenty of much better players than me think there is one so I'm not discounting it entirely. Certainly not based on one experiment which showed only that, whatever the differences may be, they probably aren't explainable based on the length or variability of flipper delay.

19
#357 6 years ago

I feel bad about it this thread and wish I had checked my results better before posting. I think probably when I originally tested AFM the ground wire lost contact on the opto board. That was a difficult connection on pins that were close together and I had to put the connector back on after I hooked the wires around the pins. When the coil fired it pulled enough power to make it look like the opto was firing at the same time once the ground was lost.

I've updated the original post to say the original claim that AFM did not have a delay were in error and both games have a similar variability. Like many I still think the originals have a different flipper feel than the remakes, but with respect to the flipper timing they are similar. I have changed the title of the thread to "Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays"

I think this has spurred some interesting discussion, and I thank all - no almost all - that participated.

#358 6 years ago

Very fascinating thread! We have an MMr at work and there is an arcade close by with an original MM. I have to say, both play a little differently no doubt because the original is a lot more worn in, and even the flippers were not adjusted the same on both machines.

At Replay, they had numerous Funhouse pins. All of them played a little different based on playfield/mylar wear, flipper adjustment, etc. I think you would be very hard pressed (except for remakes coming off the floor) to find pins that play the same.

#359 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I feel bad about it this thread

no worries...this was great!

#360 6 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Just because the remakes are obviously inferior to the originals and not appropriate for high level competition

What a load of cr*p.

#361 6 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

What a load of cr*p.

Indeed! We should all be grateful though, what an awesome time to be in the hobby. The fact that there are both original and remake options for two (and soon to be more!) highly sought after classics means more options and availability!

#363 6 years ago

They play well and they're fine for competition. We held an IFPA event in Saturday with an MMRLE. I wouldn't shy away from using it again.

#364 6 years ago
Quoted from dts:

Selection bias and secondary gain. If you have an original for sell for $1k more than the remake, you will play a routed machine with the flippers not adjusted properly and declare them all bad.

Hi, what is your issue? I am reading the thread looking for facts. You have only 7 posts since joining Pinside and all of them are in the couple of day old thread.

Agenda?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals?tu=dts

I have friends with both original owners and remakes. Both are happy as I would expect.

#365 6 years ago
Quoted from dts:

Selection bias and secondary gain. If you have an original for sell for $1k more than the remake, you will play a routed machine with the flippers not adjusted properly and declare them all bad.

This accusation has to stop. Seriously.

Why don't you guys go collect toy cars, where condition and value are all that matter? Let us play the games and enjoy them based on how fun they are.

The last few years in this hobby as been so irritating with so many people focusing on how their collections measure up in dollar value or what themes they have. Playing and the quality of play has become a secondary concern.

#367 6 years ago
Quoted from dts:

No agenda, just the truth. I have stayed in the background and watched until this point.

Sure, bud.

#368 6 years ago

They are both excellent and it is great that more people can enjoy them. I have owned both.

#369 6 years ago

Did anyone check if there's any lag during gameplay, especially when there's a lot going on? This may load the SW and cause sporadic lag. You'd have to somehow trigger on a long duration (greater than 5 ms?) after a flip to when the coil fires.

#370 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I feel bad about it this thread and wish I had checked my results better before posting. I think probably when I originally tested AFM the ground wire lost contact on the opto board. That was a difficult connection on pins that were close together and I had to put the connector back on after I hooked the wires around the pins. When the coil fired it pulled enough power to make it look like the opto was firing at the same time once the ground was lost.
I've updated the original post to say the original claim that AFM did not have a delay were in error and both games have a similar variability. Like many I still think the originals have a different flipper feel than the remakes, but with respect to the flipper timing they are similar. I have changed the title of the thread to "Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays"
I think this has spurred some interesting discussion, and I thank all - no almost all - that participated.

As a few others have said... you have nothing to feel bad about. It's human nature to make mistakes and that's what peer review is for (similar to scientific journals). I think those of us that appreciate the science realize that a small mistake can happen to all of us... I'd be lying if I said I hadn't made bigger mistakes than this. Of course, it's fear of this failure that keep people from trying new things. I say keep trying and I definitely learned a lot from this thread.

#371 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I took some more measurements using the method

I'm happy to see that you didn't actually catch the Fluke on fire. Fairly obvious sarcasm, but I was wondering how many people would catch it.

#372 6 years ago
Quoted from Mvfvette1:

That's what it's starting to look like. Originals may have even an even wider amount of random delay than the remakes. Scores on the originals will now be decreasing because of this info. Professionals will no longer be hitting their shots with as much regularity on the originals. Also, the originals should no longer be used for tournament play.

Exactly.

This is absolutely one of the awesomest threads in Pinside history. You couldn't script this thread any better! Thank you Pinside.

10
#373 6 years ago

Hey I don't get it - where did Crazy Levi and Odin go?

#374 6 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

People jumped on the delay explanation because nobody has had a reason to point to until now why the games have a different feel to them. A lot of people claim difficulty hitting center shots or chaining ramp shots where they've never struggled to do that before. Lots of high level players have said this from the beginning and have stayed consistent in those claims. Finding that there's no difference in flipper delay doesn't mean that the games play the same, it just means that flipper delay variance is not a factor.

Let's get Levi to break it down for us! After all, he suspects ALL the coils in the remakes may suffer from this "random variance" phenomenon.

Maybe they just play different because some are 22 years old and some are brand spanking new? Maybe it's the WIDER gap in "random variance" flipper response that the "top players" are perfectly acclimated to, and the truer response of the remakes throws them off?

Oh this is rich. What a great thread!

-15
#375 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I feel bad about it this thread and wish I had checked my results better before posting. I think probably when I originally tested AFM the ground wire lost contact on the opto board. That was a difficult connection on pins that were close together and I had to put the connector back on after I hooked the wires around the pins. When the coil fired it pulled enough power to make it look like the opto was firing at the same time once the ground was lost.
I've updated the original post to say the original claim that AFM did not have a delay were in error and both games have a similar variability. Like many I still think the originals have a different flipper feel than the remakes, but with respect to the flipper timing they are similar. I have changed the title of the thread to "Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays"
I think this has spurred some interesting discussion, and I thank all - no almost all - that participated.

Do all your homework first without any reasonable doubt..

#376 6 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Hi, what is your issue? I am reading the thread looking for facts. You have only 7 posts since joining Pinside and all of them are in the couple of day old thread.
Agenda?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals?tu=dts
I have friends with both original owners and remakes. Both are happy as I would expect.

Yeah, I don't really post much. Didn't mean to offend. The thread was super interesting and reminded me of my Heathkit days. I think we all have a bias in general but try to be open minded, so the data is actually very interesting and fun to try to figure out.

#377 6 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Very pleased with my .310 ms score, time to drink some shine and play pinball.

When I tried the reaction test and consistently got in the 300ms range I knew there was no way anyone would be able to detect a 3ms delay. It has now been confirmed that a variable delay of that long has been present in WPC95 games all along without anyone noticing. This thread has been very enlightening. Kudos to Doug of CGC for his professionalism in taking this matter seriously and for his consistently excellent communication.

#378 6 years ago

Best thing about this thread was Sherlock whysnow telling everyone he knew something wasnt right and now he had scientific proof just like predator.

#379 6 years ago
Quoted from tslayer71:

ey I don't get it - where did Crazy Levi and Odin go?

Grabbing a slice of pie I suppose.

humble pie (resized).jpghumble pie (resized).jpg

55
#380 6 years ago

@twenty84’s post was an effort to improve the product. He even contacted Doug Skor offering his assistance in resolving the potential issue. He has absolutely nothing to apologize for.

We viewed it as a possible opportunity to make the product even better. Our engineers spent a few days testing and confirming our understanding of WPC95. We are now considering adding a setting in game 3 to allow the owner to eliminate the flipper variance or play with variance equal to the original. Maybe we will call it the twenty84 setting.

Perhap this exercise will even debunk the “plays like video pinball” rhetoric.

There will never be consensus on the question of whether remakes play “differently” than the originals. There are countless variables that affect the feel of a pinball machine. Regardless of any real or imagined differences, MMR hovers in the #1 position on the Pinside Top 100 Poll and we are hopeful AFMR might eventually push MMR into the #2 position. Where operated, both MMR and AFMR are earning remarkably well. If there are differences, they are being accepted and embraced by the majority of players and collectors.

#381 6 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

twenty84’s post was an effort to improve the product. He even contacted Doug Skor offering his assistance in resolving the potential issue. He has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
We viewed it as a possible opportunity to make the product even better. Our engineers spent a few days testing and confirming our understanding of WPC95. We are now considering adding a setting in game 3 to allow the owner to eliminate the flipper variance or play with variance equal to the original. Maybe we will call it the twenty84 setting.
Perhap this exercise will even debunk the “plays like video pinball” rhetoric.
There will never be consensus on the question of whether remakes play “differently” than the originals. There are countless variables that affect the feel of a pinball machine. Regardless of any real or imagined differences, MMR hovers in the #1 position on the Pinside Top 100 Poll and we are hopeful AFMR might eventually push MMR into the #2 position. Where operated, both MMR and AFMR are earning remarkably well. If there are differences, they are being accepted and embraced by the majority of players and collectors.

AMEN!!

#382 6 years ago

Worst thing about this thread is seeing so many people argue, belittle each other, and act smug when their "side" is "winning".

#383 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I feel bad about it this thread and wish I had checked my results better before posting. I think probably when I originally tested AFM the ground wire lost contact on the opto board. That was a difficult connection on pins that were close together and I had to put the connector back on after I hooked the wires around the pins. When the coil fired it pulled enough power to make it look like the opto was firing at the same time once the ground was lost.
I've updated the original post to say the original claim that AFM did not have a delay were in error and both games have a similar variability. Like many I still think the originals have a different flipper feel than the remakes, but with respect to the flipper timing they are similar. I have changed the title of the thread to "Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays"
I think this has spurred some interesting discussion, and I thank all - no almost all - that participated.

Great thread!

Not only a great illustration of the scientific method at work, including the importance of repeatability of the experiments, and the ability and willingness to change your mind regarding the results when new and improved data appears, but also a fascinating example of "confirmation bias" at work, with people who were already of the opinion that the remakes shoot differently feeling vindicated by the early, incorrect results.

If only rational thought and experimentation made up the bulk of online discussion...

Hats off to CGC for their quick and transparent response as well, their willingness to look into the issue in a completely public manner when there was a possibility it would result in a potentially negative outcome, and cause them to incur associated additional costs, is commendable. They've gained my respect.

Now, can someone run the same measurements on a P-Roc system, ala TNA?

I think all new pinball board systems should be tested for technical precision when they are introduced - fun stuff!

#384 6 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

twenty84’s post was an effort to improve the product. He even contacted Doug Skor offering his assistance in resolving the potential issue. He has absolutely nothing to apologize for.
We viewed it as a possible opportunity to make the product even better. Our engineers spent a few days testing and confirming our understanding of WPC95. We are now considering adding a setting in game 3 to allow the owner to eliminate the flipper variance or play with variance equal to the original. Maybe we will call it the twenty84 setting.
Perhap this exercise will even debunk the “plays like video pinball” rhetoric.
There will never be consensus on the question of whether remakes play “differently” than the originals. There are countless variables that affect the feel of a pinball machine. Regardless of any real or imagined differences, MMR hovers in the #1 position on the Pinside Top 100 Poll and we are hopeful AFMR might eventually push MMR into the #2 position. Where operated, both MMR and AFMR are earning remarkably well. If there are differences, they are being accepted and embraced by the majority of players and collectors.

Conspiracy theorists say twenty84 got paid off to "make it go away".

Ancient Alien theorists say - "play your game" - and when you play it else were it always plays different.

#385 6 years ago
Quoted from Doug_Duba:

We are now considering adding a setting in game 3 to allow the owner to eliminate the flipper variance or play with variance equal to the original. Maybe we will call it the twenty84 setting.

God forbid - you want to make the remake BETTER than the original?

#386 6 years ago

I think the results show that there is something to the "difference" but we have proven that it's not a flipper delay. We have seen scores NOTICEABLY lower on AFMr than AFM, so why? Of course no two machines are identical, but I find copy-to-copy play on AFM a lot easier to adapt to then other titles. Let's assume they are equally level.

Other possibilities...

1.) Clear coating on the AFMr makes it faster. However, for skilled players playing control play, this factor would only be observed on playing on the fly and that's not what I've seen or heard in discussion. I'm inclined to rule this out as the primary cause because most tourney games are waxed sufficiently.

2.) Flipper power. What I'd like to see are measurements of how long the coil is providing full power before switching to hold on an AFM vs. AFMr. If there's noteworthy difference, then that would mean one flipper is in contact with the ball longer than the other machine. Since the ball is moving at non-zero speed, THAT could certainly account for differences.

3.) Flipper PLACEMENT. It should be obvious that the single most way to vary shots is by flipper placement (see the Ghostbuster thread if you don't believe it). Just a couple degree change in where the flipper set at rest will make all the difference in the world on direction of travel. Are AFMr flippers coming with the same alignment as AFMs? Are they parallel to the inlane? Droopy? Erect? Is there a subtle ball hop being introduced? These tiny fractions of a second difference in timing can make a MASSIVE angle change in shot placement.

#387 6 years ago

I think it's an interesting topic so why stop at this test? I say take it to the next level and use another method (accelerometer or high speed video?) to confirm exactly what is going on with these titles and others.

Instead of closing the door on flipper delays and timing variability, why not understand it a little better? It may lead somewhere or not, a little like the hadron collider.

#388 6 years ago

I'm still liking my "They're basically the same" position.

#389 6 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Conspiracy theorists say twenty84 got paid off to "make it go away".

Or he was paid to start it in the first place.....

#390 6 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Or he was paid to start it in the first place.....

Hhhmmmm, White Water (topper) conspiracy. I like it

#391 6 years ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

2.) Flipper power. What I'd like to see are measurements of how long the coil is providing full power before switching to hold on an AFM vs. AFMr. If there's noteworthy difference, then that would mean one flipper is in contact with the ball longer than the other machine. Since the ball is moving at non-zero speed, THAT could certainly account for differences.

Isnt this adjustable on AFMR?

#392 6 years ago
Quoted from wxforecaster:

I think the results show that there is something to the "difference" but we have proven that it's not a flipper delay.

In what way do the results of this thread "show that there is something to the 'difference'"? All I can make out from the results is that if there is a difference, it's apparently not due to flipper delay.

If you believe there is an as yet unexplained difference, presumably it is through your own play or taking the word of the experienced players that say they notice a difference. These are totally reasonable bases on which to rest an opinion, but have nothing to do with OP's experiment.

#393 6 years ago
Quoted from Fytr:

Now, can someone run the same measurements on a P-Roc system, ala TNA?

Flipper/Bumper switch-to-coil-activation latency was literally the first feature considered when architecting the P-ROC. Switch scanning is configurable down to 1s by software, and associated coil activations can take up to 1ms to initiate. Early frameworks used a default of 3ms switch scanning, which would result in a window of 0-4ms. Games like the P3 are using 1ms switch scanning loops, resulting in a window of 0-2ms.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

#394 6 years ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Flipper/Bumper switch-to-coil-activation latency was literally the first feature considered when architecting the P-ROC. Switch scanning is configurable down to 1s by software, and associated coil activations can take up to 1ms to initiate. Early frameworks used a default of 3ms switch scanning, which would result in a window of 0-4ms. Games like the P3 are using 1ms switch scanning loops, resulting in a window of 0-2ms.
- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Sweet! Thx.

#395 6 years ago

Awesome read. Hopefully no one walks away from remake because of thus. I like my MMR and cant wait for my AFMR. Like them more than original.

#396 6 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I noticed on the remakes the power coil is energized for 4 ms while on the original it stays on much longer (20-25ms). Is there a way to try a longer delay on the remake and see how it plays?

I would like to hear more discussion about this now. I think it got mostly overlooked because it was in the original apology post but i believe it has merit.

#397 6 years ago

Sweet, my AFMr didn’t just drop in value. Oh no, I should have sold my Monster Bash YESTERDAY!

#398 6 years ago
Quoted from jar155:

I've always played better on the originals than I have on remakes (talking about MM/MMR), but I never knew why, really. Heck, I've even played a scratch built game and did better on that than I did on the remakes. I still like the remakes, but they do have a different feel to them. I always attributed it to a difference in clearcoats, but maybe it does come down to variance in flipper timing. Hard to know when it's such a small difference, but I'm WAY MORE consistent chaining left and right ramps on an original.

Here's something I haven't seen discussed much, but it absolutely affected the flipper feel and perception of the remakes:

Many of the MMr's were built with the wrong flipper plunger. They had leftovers from Vacation America that had the B/W part number but were in fact 1/8 in longer...this results in the flipper not going up as high.

Mine had this "slightly off feel" but I bumped up the strength and got used to it. Last year someone told me the plunger story, so I bought some new ones and changed them out. Sure enough, mine were 1/8 in. longer! Now it feels legit.

So - if anyone feels MMr is off, they might be right if it has the wrong plungers on it. Not sure this timing thing has anything to do with it tho.

#399 6 years ago

Was it not Keith Elwin that brought this up in the first place?
Has he commented in this thread under a screen name at all?
Just currious.
What a crazy trip this has been.

#400 6 years ago

There are so many subjective things about pinball; this wasn't one of them. I think it's great that there was some thorough research going on here, validated by several people with engagement from the manufacturer. I wish more threads could resolve as nicely as this one did.

Marc

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 64.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lermods
Toys/Add-ons
There are 483 posts in this topic. You are on page 8 of 10.

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-remakes-dont-play-like-originals/page/8?hl=cosmojoe and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.