(Topic ID: 199195)

Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays


By twenty84

2 years ago



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#51 2 years ago

Pull out the old Pinball 101 DVD and there's a chapter on flipper timing. One example shows a rolling feed to a flipper has two different shots within 8ms. So a slight random delay of a few ms will mess with your timing and cause missed shots.

10
#52 2 years ago

PPS will offer a patch for this.

$175.00 for MMr and $125.00 for MMRLE

Funny thing is that I recall Roger Sharpe was brought in to "certify " that MMR played the same as the original Williams MM. What's up with that?

#53 2 years ago

twenty84 in any case of opinions here you have some scary good electronic forensic skills and would not want to be up against you in a court room. very interesting
-Mike

#54 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

CGC uses B/W flipper components.
Stern uses Stern flipper components.
LTG : )

MMr was made by Stern correct?

#55 2 years ago
Quoted from TKDalumni:

MMr was made by Stern correct?

The first were assembled by Stern. CGC provided playfields, cabinets, parts, etc. etc.

Recently CGC took a break from AFMRs and went back to make MMRs. Then back to AFMRs.

No Stern parts in any they assembled.

LTG : )

#56 2 years ago
Quoted from timballs:

The question really has nothing to do with how fast people can react to the shot. The bigger question is how long it takes for the ball to roll down the flipper for the shot to change. If the moment I'm flipping is exactly the same, and my shot isn't going to the same place, that's where you would perceive a problem.
The lock shot is a tight shot on Attack from Mars. Is it 4ms tight??? That I don't know.. and you can't really prove that.
My theory is still that the way the coils get power affect the timing of the shot. It feels like the ball stays on the flipper for longer, which causes my shots to be pushed more sideways than I would like, and this changes the angle on every shot. Elwin's theory was that it's lag like you would have with video pinball.
Who has a super high speed camera, something with enough frames to actually measure the time it takes to complete the flipper stroke on an original and a remake, and can do that test? Maybe combine all the factors and you have a less precise game.

The new iPhone 8 has a slow motion video feature that is really good gor this.

#57 2 years ago

Ya know, this makes sense and has me wondering if that's why I sometimes get the impression that the feel of the flippers on my TBL is somehow 'off' - I've never been able to articulate it but sometimes I do find myself cursing the feel and response.

#58 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Funny thing is that I recall Roger Sharpe was brought in to "certify " that MMR played the same as the original Williams MM. What's up with that?

Perhaps his reflexes aren't what they were 20 years ago. Vision might be going as well....

10
#59 2 years ago
Quoted from L8vid:

Pull out the old Pinball 101 DVD and there's a chapter on flipper timing. One example shows a rolling feed to a flipper has two different shots within 8ms. So a slight random delay of a few ms will mess with your timing and cause missed shots.

Bingo.

Some of the posters in this thread have got the wrong end of the stick. It's not to do with "your" reaction times, it's when the flipper fires in relation to when you hit the button.

If you are aiming for a tight ramp, there is ONE spot on the flipper where the ball will go up the ramp. If the flipper fires a little later than intended, the ball hits the post instead of the ramp. And as Randy L8vid says, it is perfectly demonstrated in the Pinball 101 video.

rd

#60 2 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Bingo.
Some of the posters in this thread have got the wrong end of the stick. It's not to do with "your" reaction times, it's when the flipper fires in relation to when you hit the button.
If you are aiming for a tight ramp, there is ONE spot on the flipper where the ball will go up the ramp. If the flipper fires a little later than intended, the ball hits the post instead of the ramp. And as Randy L8vid says, it is perfectly demonstrated in the Pinball 101 video.
rd

But you can't time your own physical activity down to single digit milliseconds.
Try this experiment. Tap along to a beat that's running at about 500ms, with your finger, on a timing device and have a look at the scattering around the exact 500ms beat mark. You will have a distribution around the mark much wider than 5ms. Even if you know it's coming, you can't get that fine.

#61 2 years ago
Quoted from twenty84:

Baseballs and hockey pucks can go 100 MPH in professional games. That is 4.5 cm/ms. Swing with a 5 ms delay and you are off by more than 20 cm.

Apples and oranges.

#62 2 years ago

What's funny to me in this and all the "you can't perceive that" arguments is that 5ms is forever when you talk about high speed circuity. I was an RF Engineering Tech on new products for years and if I told my boss that a new circuit was 5 ms slower than the old one he would have said something like "you mean micro or nano, right??". We designed a product with a switched transmitter (two stage amplifier) and it had to be fully powered and stable, with no jitter in under 50 microseconds, that was 1992 or so.

To me though the biggest thing with this is the inconsistency compared to the original and yes, I do think that will make a difference in how the game feels to you unless you're just a hack up there slapping flipper buttons. Certainly shots when the ball is moving quickly, maybe not as much as from a cradle. And according to some research humans CAN time there actions down to single digit milliseconds.

It probably won't matter though, those that are passionate that the remakes play the same or better will likely never admit they're wrong, even if presented with tons of evidence. That's the way passion and emotion affects us.

#63 2 years ago

I don't think you'd notice the difference with that small of a delay except for a very very small percentage of the population. 60fps from video games is 16.66ms between frames, so you're talking have to be over 200fps, which very few people can tell. Most TV input lag is between 20 and 100ms and most people don't notice it.

Kudos to the experiment though. The second part of the experiment needs to be with the ball rolling at it's max speed and then figuring out the worst case scenario for where it would travel with no delay vs. 4.5ms delay.

#64 2 years ago

I think it's ridiculous to say that a variable delay of almost .5 ms can't effect players just because it's supposedly undetectable to the conscious mind.

Even if that were so It could still affect players. It would affect us subconsciously like so many other things do. We aren't really in control of our own minds.

People have been saying for a long time they notice a difference. The whole game is being run by some cheesy emulator instead of being done the correct way. If Stern pulled something like this can you imagine the shit they'd be catching?! It wouldn't be a 2 page thread I can tell you that.

And it's not just the flippers. It's everything - slings, pops, kickers, saucers, castles...literally everything the software controls is subject to the varying delays.

Your vulnerable mind is going to pick up on all that noise and get confused and unsettled. Just ask any brain doctor.

#65 2 years ago

Wonder if any of these would alter your results?
Game Voltage. (Power Supply)
Ac current in. (110v to 120v)
Would there be a variation between same models? MM to MM or MMR to MMR If you had more then one to test and truly compare apples to apples

Hot topic for sure. Cant wait for more research to become available. If this is confirmed would there be a quick fix? I do not feel any different about the quality of the games I own or have played in the past. Let's see where this goes.

22
#66 2 years ago

Two things could cause this:

1) Linux lag. An OS checks I/O when it feels like it - you don't have control over this. They use the Beagle Bone Black for these, which is an ARM SoC with (2) built-in 32 bit microcontrollers I'd assume they use for low-level control, but there still might be I/O polling delays.

2) Locked emulator frequency. What if they said "it runs the emulator at 200FPS and that's faster than anybody needs!" And certainly, like if it were a NES or Atari emulator you'd say "I don't need 200FPS it only ran at 60 originally!"

And yeah it sounds super fast but it would mean an entire "game logic loop" is 5ms, which is a very long time at a hardware level. Consider this psuedo-code, with each action taking 1 ms:

ms0: Do stuff
ms1: Check flipper buttons
ms2: Energize coils if button pressed.
ms3: Do other things
ms4: Do other stuff

OK now your human input is completely random, it could happen anywhere during this cycle. So if you pressed the button around ms0 or ms1, you'd get a very fast response. But if you "just miss" the window and press it on ms2-4, you'd have to wait the entire loop for it to come back 'round again and read your input. This could be the cause for the range of response times.

#67 2 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

Every game I play, plays slightly different even if it's the same game. I'm sure other realize that there are countless other factors that weigh on how a game plays. Not sure 4.5ms would be one of them. regardless, its an interesting bit of info.

This right here. No machine of the same title plays exactly the same. I've been playing these machines since they were new. The remakes play within the realm of the originals. There is no delay like when you play virtual pinball and have input lag on your display. I know what that feels like. I suppose this is going to end up going down as a vinyl vs cd type debate and folks will take sides and one is always better yadda yadda. In the end both when set up properly will give a great experience. Yes I have vinyl and CDs. And yes I have original and remake pinballs.

#68 2 years ago

Flipper delay is the reason all virtual pinball is mostly terrible to play. It may be ms but it's real and it's annoying... if the newer games are using software for flippers rather than hardware like in the "old days", the OP's post is very valid.

#69 2 years ago
Quoted from taylor34:

The second part of the experiment needs to be with the ball rolling at it's max speed and then figuring out the worst case scenario for where it would travel with no delay vs. 4.5ms delay.

And then calculate what would be the change in your shot angle (which is the relevant parameter when flipping).

#70 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Two things could cause this:
1) Linux lag. An OS checks I/O when it feels like it - you don't have control over this. They use the Beagle Bone Black for these, which is an ARM SoC with (2) built-in 32 bit microcontrollers I'd assume they use for low-level control, but there still might be I/O polling delays.
2) Locked emulator frequency. What if they said "it runs the emulator at 200FPS and that's faster than anybody needs!" And certainly, like if it were a NES or Atari emulator you'd say "I don't need 200FPS it only ran at 60 originally!"
And yeah it sounds super fast but it would mean an entire "game logic loop" is 5ms, which is a very long time at a hardware level. Consider this psuedo-code, with each action taking 1 ms:
ms0: Do stuff
ms1: Check flipper buttons
ms2: Energize coils if button pressed.
ms3: Do other things
ms4: Do other stuff
OK now your human input is completely random, it could happen anywhere during this cycle. So if you pressed the button around ms0 or ms1, you'd get a very fast response. But if you "just miss" the window and press it on ms2-4, you'd have to wait the entire loop for it to come back 'round again and read your input. This could be the cause for the range of response times.

I was thinking about the cause as I read thru this and came to conclusion #2 as well although Ben beat me by 15 minutes posting it much more eloquently That def. explains the randomness of the delay. Although I don't know jack about Linux so maybe the issue is two-fold.. but if it's problem #2 than one would think the clock could be adjusted, although that might mean some rewriting/editing if code was hard coded in in relation to the clock?

Kudos to OP for scoping this - very interesting to see!

#71 2 years ago

I love the threads that resurface the wise, often old, guys that avoid most threads. I always look at their colllections.

#72 2 years ago

Would turning up the MMr flipper power change the test results? I have mine at +1 because I though at default they felt sluggish.

#73 2 years ago

I have always said that to me MMR never felt the same as the original. Played 4 different ones.

The only way I could describe it was that the flippers felt 'spongy' or 'loose'.

Having read the analysis , it all makes perfect sense now.

#74 2 years ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

Amazing thread. Thanks for doing what all of us are too lazy or too stupid to do.
I hope they can fix it somehow, even if it's just for future titles with a hardware change.
I would love if you could do this for jjp and stern games from whitestar/Sam versus spike 1/2

Having now read the analysis I would hazard a guess that Spike games have some degree of variable delay as whilst not as noticeable as MMR, I have felt it occasionally.

#75 2 years ago

I would think most could get used to the delay, but a RANDOM delay? That's an issue.

#76 2 years ago

This was going to be my next test - I was just waiting for my AFMR as I have access to an AFM to compare, great job. Now to get the high speed camera.

I looked at the angle and flipper parts and they are identical between MM and MMR.

Its the randomness thats worrying, the ball will travel slightly further in that lag. but you'd think something that could be fixed or at the very least made consistent cgc_dougs - wonder if your guys could take a look at this and ask your software guys what they think? If it was constant then people could adjust for it but random variances is very bad.

It would be worth doing this on a Stern also spike and sam and see if its constant also.

Cheers,
Neil.

#77 2 years ago

Im guessing the old 90s hardware just involves a simple cpu inturrupt which scans the switch matrix at a set interval and then fires the coils in the same interrupt routine, or something along those lines. All very simple / precise and predictable.

I have NO idea how the new hardware works but im it most likely involves multiple layers of software the events have to bubble up through then something needs to make a decision and fire out events that needs to make it way back to the flipper coils ie network or emulator or how ever it all works. All this adds over head for what is a extreamly simple function of the game.

To keep the feel the same it would probably be best (as some one else mensioned above) have a little dedicated flipper board that has the buttons hardwired to the coils so the nano second you hit the button it fires that coil. Would need a transistor or something between as well to disable the flippers when they need to be disabled and something to send a signal to the main game controller.

Unless you have some sort of insanely quick system which adds 0 delay you really need the flippers on there own local controller just to get the 0 response time.

#78 2 years ago
Quoted from russdx:

Unless you have some sort of insanely quick system which adds 0 delay you really need the flippers on there own local controller just to get the 0 response time.

Or wire them straight to the 50v same as all pins pre WPC Fliptronics.

rd

#79 2 years ago

Bingo.... this is wat i felt on mmr to.
The same but worse on Highway FT.
I played 2 different programed FT machine's on the dutch dpo 2015. One with very slow flipper respond, and the second re programmed by Harry Mangels.
( i know Harry from a few years back) and he told me the difference , he also did some work for Houdini so i know some more than most people.
Back on topic, this response delay on computer based pinballs is something not to over look.

#80 2 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Or wire them straight to the 50v same as all pins pre WPC Fliptronics.
rd

Indeed

Quoted from russdx:

To keep the feel the same it would probably be best (as some one else mensioned above) have a little dedicated flipper board that has the buttons hardwired to the coils so the nano second you hit the button it fires that coil. Would need a transistor or something between as well to disable the flippers when they need to be disabled and something to send a signal to the main game controller.

#81 2 years ago
Quoted from pinballwil:

Bingo.... this is wat i felt on mmr to.
The same but worse on Highway FT.
I played 2 different programed FT machine's on the dutch dpo 2015. One with very slow flipper respond, and the second re programmed by Harry Mangels.
( i know Harry from a few years back) and he told me the difference , he also did some work for Houdini so i know some more than most people.
Back on topic, this response delay on computer based pinballs is something not to over look.

Well, I played MMR as soon as it came out and the flipper feel was what stopped me buying MMR and now AFMR. Lots of people didn't get what I was saying so pleased it is being debated and that there are potential fixes going forward.

#82 2 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

And yeah it sounds super fast but it would mean an entire "game logic loop" is 5ms, which is a very long time at a hardware level. Consider this psuedo-code, with each action taking 1 ms:
ms0: Do stuff
ms1: Check flipper buttons
ms2: Energize coils if button pressed.
ms3: Do other things
ms4: Do other stuff

This brought back memories of a product I worked on which had to be converted from this algorithm to an interrupt driven approach.
Event loops like this are sensitive and sometimes just can't be tuned to generate a predictable response.
Since the beagle bone has the PRU's, I had assumed those were being used for things like flippers with more hard real time constraints? For those who don't know the PRU's are "separate" CPUs intended to handle real world/time sensitive work... Especially since standard Linux can't provide extremely predictable response times (although there are some distros with features to provide more precise response capabilities)

I'm curious about how the circuit is wired up... Are the flipper switches wired direct to the beagle inputs? This would mean they'd need software debouncing (all switches oscillate open/closed when initially released/opened)
Are the coil drivers being driven directly by the beagle? Or is there another microcontroller handling I/O?
If there's just discrete logic/components then the variability must be from software (as bobukcat noted hardware typically varies orders of magnitudes less than mSec)

Fascinating that a more distributed CPU architecture like Stern Spike is allowing them to modulate the coil.
Even more interesting to me is the data which makes me wonder if the MMr I've been playing recently on location exhibits this behavior or I'm just terrible at pinball
-Dale
PS that product I mentioned happened to be emulated 6809 code running on a 333mhz powerPC back in the mid-90's...A real time OS was running on both 'chips' (a Linux-like OS on the powerPC and an in-house OS on the 6809.) We had to pull some functions out of the 6809 and implement them on the powerPC to get the required response times.

#83 2 years ago

I'd be interested to see the same kind of comparison done on RFM Original vs NuCore. Kudos to the OP for an impressive analysis!

17
#84 2 years ago

Agree that the variable time is the biggest concern. Since "The shortest time was 1.5 ms, the longest was 4.5 ms. The mean ± SD was 3.4 ± 1.3 ms." I did a few calculations using that overall range.

Recall that Distance = Speed multiplied by time
So, if the ball is traveling 1 meter per second you get:
1 m/s * (0.0015 to 0.0045 sec) = 0.0015 to 0.0045 meters = 1.5 to 4.5 mm... or a variation of 3 mm (which is 0.118 inches)
[For reference 1 m/s = 3.6 km/hr or 2.24 miles per hour)

Put into common terms, if the ball is traveling at 1 meter per second after you press the flipper button the the ball will travel anywhere between 1.5 and 4.5 mm before the flipper acts... and that won't be consistent... one flip will be only 1.5 mm, one will be 4.5 mm, one will be 2.2 mm, ...

You also need to think about the following conditions:
* Trapped ball - very slow
But still.. variable time or response will result in your aim being off
* Ball rolling through inlane - generally moderately slow
Variable time or response will result in your aim being even more off
* Ball coming straight at flipper (for a live catch or drop catch) - from slow to very fast
Variable time or response will result in not being able to catch or control the ball consistently

Now let's turn the above into real speeds based upon https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-fast-does-a-pinball-travel and http://tiltforums.com/t/maximum-ball-speed/2334/20
--> about 10-15 mph after a flip (but that seems to be contested)
--> generally 5 mph?
--> about 3-4 mph in general?
--> about 2.3 mph after a flip

(15 mph = 6.71 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (10.1 to 30.2 mm) --> variation of 20.1 mm or 0.792 inches
(10 mph = 4.47 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (6.7 to 20.1 mm) --> variation of 13.4 mm or 0.528 inches
(5 mph = 2.24 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (3.4 to 10.1 mm) --> variation of 6.7 mm or 0.264 inches
(4 mph = 1.79 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.7 to 8.0 mm) --> variation of 5.4 mm or 0.211 inches
(3 mph = 1.34 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.0 to 6.0 mm) --> variation of 4.0 mm or 0.158 inches
(2.24 mph = 1.00 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.5 to 4.5 mm) --> variation of 3.0 mm or 0.118 inches
(2 mph = 0.89 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.3 to 4.0 mm) --> variation of 2.7 mm or 0.106 inches
(1 mph = 0.45 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (0.7 to 2.0 mm) --> variation of 1.3 mm or 0.053 inches

So even at a very slow speed of 1 mph or 0.45 m/s the impact is >1 mm
and it is a dramatic 4 to 7 mm for typical ball speeds.
This seems very significant to me...

#85 2 years ago

Mooove!

4899497f4a260b829a362f74d5db3f22 (resized).jpg

#86 2 years ago

How many milliseconds of delay are added to AFMr after eating a Space Cake?

Asking for a friend.

#87 2 years ago

I have played both AFMR and MMR. They don't play the same. PERIOD!! Not sure why, I just don't feel it. Sorry Rick.

#88 2 years ago

Since when is the ball travling 1 meter per second coming down the inlane.

#89 2 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Since when is the ball travling 1 meter per second coming down the inlane.

Valid point... but I couldn't find any references for that speed...

You can do the math of assuming 1/2 meter per second or 1/4 meter per second and still get to 1.5 to 0.75 mm which is quite a bit as well.

It's going to come down to what the real speed is...

Regardless of that... the ability to drop catch and live catch fast moving ball is also significant

#90 2 years ago

The fastest rate at which humans appear to be able to process incoming stimuli is about 13ms. A response time of 100ms is perceived as instantaneous. Championship video game players fall into the 100 – 120ms

What was the variable "delay" on the flippers again?

Many pinsiders are known cyborgs. This data confirms it.

FYI, this chart applies to video games as a comparison:

300ms < game is unplayable
150ms < game play degraded
100ms < player performance affected
50ms > target performance
13ms > lower detectable limit

#91 2 years ago

I also thought flipper timing on TBL was off. I just doesn't feel right

#92 2 years ago

Bugger the science. I think the remakes play better.

#93 2 years ago

So who is going to wire their MMr/AFMr flippers direct and tell us if it plays differently?

#94 2 years ago

Thanks to Twenty84 for bringing the science to this discussion!

#95 2 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

The fastest rate at which humans appear to be able to process incoming stimuli is about 13ms. A response time of 100ms is perceived as instantaneous. Championship video game players fall into the 100 – 120ms
What was the variable "delay" on the flippers again?
Many pinsiders are known cyborgs. This data confirms it.
FYI, this chart applies to video games as a comparison:
300ms < game is unplayable
150ms < game play degraded
100ms < player performance affected
50ms > target performance
13ms > lower detectable limit

Pinball is not a video game (for the most part) - thank God!

#96 2 years ago
Quoted from tiesmasc:

Agree that the variable time is the biggest concern. Since "The shortest time was 1.5 ms, the longest was 4.5 ms. The mean ± SD was 3.4 ± 1.3 ms." I did a few calculations using that overall range.
Recall that Distance = Speed multiplied by time
So, if the ball is traveling 1 meter per second you get:
1 m/s * (0.0015 to 0.0045 sec) = 0.0015 to 0.0045 meters = 1.5 to 4.5 mm... or a variation of 3 mm (which is 0.118 inches)
[For reference 1 m/s = 3.6 km/hr or 2.24 miles per hour)
Put into common terms, if the ball is traveling at 1 meter per second after you press the flipper button the the ball will travel anywhere between 1.5 and 4.5 mm before the flipper acts... and that won't be consistent... one flip will be only 1.5 mm, one will be 4.5 mm, one will be 2.2 mm, ...
You also need to think about the following conditions:
* Trapped ball - very slow
But still.. variable time or response will result in your aim being off
* Ball rolling through inlane - generally moderately slow
Variable time or response will result in your aim being even more off
* Ball coming straight at flipper (for a live catch or drop catch) - from slow to very fast
Variable time or response will result in not being able to catch or control the ball consistently
Now let's turn the above into real speeds based upon https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-fast-does-a-pinball-travel and http://tiltforums.com/t/maximum-ball-speed/2334/20
--> about 10-15 mph after a flip (but that seems to be contested)
--> generally 5 mph?
--> about 3-4 mph in general?
--> about 2.3 mph after a flip
(15 mph = 6.71 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (10.1 to 30.2 mm) --> variation of 20.1 mm or 0.792 inches
(10 mph = 4.47 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (6.7 to 20.1 mm) --> variation of 13.4 mm or 0.528 inches
(5 mph = 2.24 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (3.4 to 10.1 mm) --> variation of 6.7 mm or 0.264 inches
(4 mph = 1.79 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.7 to 8.0 mm) --> variation of 5.4 mm or 0.211 inches
(3 mph = 1.34 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (2.0 to 6.0 mm) --> variation of 4.0 mm or 0.158 inches
(2.24 mph = 1.00 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.5 to 4.5 mm) --> variation of 3.0 mm or 0.118 inches
(2 mph = 0.89 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (1.3 to 4.0 mm) --> variation of 2.7 mm or 0.106 inches
(1 mph = 0.45 m/s) * (1.5 to 4.5 ms) = (0.7 to 2.0 mm) --> variation of 1.3 mm or 0.053 inches
So even at a very slow speed of 1 mph or 0.45 m/s the impact is >1 mm
and it is a dramatic 4 to 7 mm for typical ball speeds.
This seems very significant to me...

IMG_0022 (resized).png

IMG_0029 (resized).PNG

#97 2 years ago

The delay is meaningful. Try loading up Rock Band and use the input lag settings to play with delay settings. If it's not exact, it's a nightmare.

#98 2 years ago

Well it's good to know now why I am missing my shots on AFMr all the time. I thought it was just because I sucked, now I know it is because of science.

#99 2 years ago
Quoted from tiesmasc:

Valid point... but I couldn't find any references for that speed...
You can do the math of assuming 1/2 meter per second or 1/4 meter per second and still get to 1.5 to 0.75 mm which is quite a bit as well.
It's going to come down to what the real speed is...
Regardless of that... the ability to drop catch and live catch fast moving ball is also significant

If lucky.... after exiting the ramp, or going through the inlane I would say ( quess ) the ball is traveling between 8/10 inch’s per sec MAX. I would cut the .75 mm in half again

Now....we are not dealing with the .375 mm ( that would be the lag ) distance from button to flipper activation. We are dealing with the variance of this distance in the ms in which the distance of the ball on the flipper changed.

I personally feel it could not be detected by the human brain.

If I’m reading this right ?

#100 2 years ago

While you might not be able to notice it, if rotor dave and other top rank players say they notice it I take it as a real/valid point.

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Howell, MI
From: $ 40.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 79.99
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
PinGraffix Pinside Shop
From: $ 19.50
$ 11.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore
$ 74.00
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
Id Rather Play Pinball
$ 135.00
Cabinet - (Alt) Translites
Lit Frames
$ 89.99
$ 40.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Arcade Arts
From: $ 19.50
$ 999.00
Pinball Machine
Mircoplayfields
Trade
Machine - For Trade
San Mateo, CA
$ 90.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 229.99
$ 8.50
Lighting - Led
Pinball Haus
From: $ 248.85
Cabinet - Sound/Speakers
PinWoofer
$ 239.00
$ 26.50
$ 49.95
Lighting - Led
Pin Stadium Pinball LEDs
7,750 (OBO)
Sale Pending!
New Berlin, WI
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
From: $ 233.10
9,400 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Fort Wayne, IN
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
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