Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays

(Topic ID: 199195)

Remakes and originals have similar flipper delays


By twenty84

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 482 posts
  • 155 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Bumper
  • Topic is favorited by 35 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 35 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

keith-flippergate (resized).png
science (resized).jpg
Pot Kettle (resized).png
humble pie (resized).jpg
IMG_0459 (resized).PNG
IMG_1386 (resized).jpg
IMG_1363 (resized).jpg
450447 (resized).png
images (resized).jpg
pic_13_5 (resized).jpg
pic_13_4 (resized).jpg
Capture (resized).JPG
Capture (resized).JPG
IMG_0219.JPG
80ca400414174e25db7ad50ecc2207ae200f5d91 (resized).jpg
e27b59ec9a4cbb8b93e2f831a551675db5d51348 (resized).jpg

There are 482 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 10.
#451 1 year ago
Quoted from Raincity:

We shouldn't be conflating reaction time (200-300ms) with anticipatory timing. The accepted perceptual threshold for visual latency is 13ms. Audio engineers know that more than 5ms of delay can ruin a groove. An image displayed for a single millisecond is still noticeable, even if we can't react that fast. Locational audio perception relies on differences of sound arrival time at the ears, with detection levels well below 1ms (Average head size generates a ~600 microsecond delay for sound to travel the distance from one ear to the other). The human nervous system is capable of much more rapid responsiveness than simple reaction time would suggest, so it's disingenuous to suggest that minute delays might not have some effect.
Hell - like I mentioned earlier - if you want to test your timing (and not your reaction time), use a stopwatch (https://goo.gl/dg9yBb), and see how close to an even second you can stop the timer when you anticipate and get the timing down. I find that I'm able to get within 5ms the vast majority of the time.
Please note that I'm not claiming anything about one pin versus another, just that reaction time is not the right measurement to use when discussing the potential impact of added delay in a system.

That's a really good point. I'm not sure I fully follow you though. Are you saying that pinball is all reaction time and that's why the lag doesn't matter?

I was thinking about pinball and music in terms of anticipatory timing (eg of making a shot from a flipper rolling down the inlane vs hitting a note at the correct time). My hypothesis (if you want to call it that) would be that since shot tolerances are way more generous than timing tolerances in music, the lag is such an insignificant factor that it doesn't matter. On the other hand, if you're a keyboard player and you hit the key exactly so that the note is in the pocket and the sound falls 4 ms later then the lag it's pretty noticeable.

I did hear some people talking about reaction time earlier in the thread but in my mind I was thinking about what you call "anticipatory timing".

Maybe I'm getting things twisted though.

#452 1 year ago

I thought this thread was pretty cool. It's nice to see the OP use scientific method to demonstrably prove (or disprove) something one way or another. The nice thing about science is that it's ok to be wrong, as long as there's evidence to support the ancillary claim. No shame in being wrong.

#453 1 year ago

Agreed.

OP deserves props.

CGC deserves props.

I deserve an AFMr

#454 1 year ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

No I'm making up elaborate lies to help flipper plunger sales. YES IT'S TRUE!!!! I removed my stock MMr LE#120 flipper plungers and they were in fact 1/8 in longer than the new ones I bought.

I was trying to say that my friend has an MMR and his flippers don't raise very high, but I thought WPC95 was supposed to be like that as they made the coils stops longer on that era of game making it harder to cradle. I'm trying to determine whether when he holds his flippers up on his game if they go as high as they are supposed to. If he had longer plungers in there, that would def cause them NOT to raise high enough like you said.

#455 1 year ago

Still don't think "similar flipper delays" tells the whole story.

Even if they both have the same range of delays, one could still have a much more consistent delay than the other.

One could be, say, usually around 2ms, with the occasional 3 or 4, while the other could be 3s or 4s just as often as the 2s, which would be so inconsistent that you couldn't adjust to it.

In statistics speak, they might have very different standard deviations.

#456 1 year ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Still don't think "similar flipper delays" tells the whole story.
Even if they both have the same range of delays, one could still have a much more consistent delay than the other.
One could be, say, usually around 2ms, with the occasional 3 or 4, while the other could be 3s or 4s just as often as the 2s, which would be so inconsistent that you couldn't adjust to it.
In statistics speak, they might have very different standard deviations.

Just as stated...... none that are humanly possible to pick up. Period.

#457 1 year ago

I used to work for a company doing military drones. This is a scenario where some guy is sitting in Nevada, using a joystick, controlling a real airplane in the middle East using satellites to bounce the joystick actions to the airplane and video back to his display. Can land the airplane this way. There were studies done with lag and when did the pilot notice it vs felt instantaneous.. I never saw the test data but the conclusion relayed to me was 300ms. So everything was built to get under that threshold. This is consistent with everyone reporting 200ms reaction times, etc..

So I find all this faffing about regarding 0-5ms just nuts.. it can't matter. There's no way 0-5ms matters.

#458 1 year ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Just as stated...... none that are humanly possible to pick up. Period.

Again, it's irrelevant if you think it's perceptible. Does it change the shot is the relevant question.

If a 3 ms variation can't change a barely made it into a brick off the post then it's an insignificant difference.

#459 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Again, it's irrelevant if you think it's perceptible. Does it change the shot is the relevant question.
If a 3 ms variation can't change a barely made it into a brick off the post then it's an insignificant difference.

As stated ...... no different than any other WPC or WPC95 game out there.

#460 1 year ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Still don't think "similar flipper delays" tells the whole story.
Even if they both have the same range of delays, one could still have a much more consistent delay than the other.
One could be, say, usually around 2ms, with the occasional 3 or 4, while the other could be 3s or 4s just as often as the 2s, which would be so inconsistent that you couldn't adjust to it.
In statistics speak, they might have very different standard deviations.

Having looked at many tracings from both they seem very similar, at least once I did them correctly on the AFM. The AFM varied from 0.5 to 4.5 ms and the MMR LE was 1.5 to 5.5 ms. Thus they both vary over a range of about 4 ms. I don't think the constant about 1 ms greater delay of the MMR on average is of any consequence. The delay is caused the the processor or an emulation of the processor checking to see if the flipper button is pressed at intervals. It would be possible to do statistics on this, and if someone did I would guess they would find the MMR had a on average ~1 ms longer delay but the variation in the delay was the same.

People can form their own opinions and do their own analysis. Over the course of this thread I've come to the opinion that the remakes and original have very similar variations in flipper timing and that is not a reason for them to have different feels but they might feel different for other reasons that have been discussed.

#461 1 year ago

All I can say is...... great job doing this analysis.

#462 1 year ago

Irregardless of any variances on the originals, Chicago Gaming has an opportunity to improve overall shot-making if they can reduce the variable delay. As we all know, the best players are the best because they can better control the ball and the shot direction. Let's say arbitrarily that they can cut the variation in half. The current situation will give you a shot distribution in a fan shape from the intended target. If they can reduce the size of that fan by fifty percent, then the shots will have a better chance of going where the players want them to go. The better players' shot fan shapes are smaller than the average players', but everyone should see an improvement in their game play if Chicago Gaming can get this done. Good luck to CGC!

#463 1 year ago
Quoted from hlaj78:

Irregardless of any variances on the originals, Chicago Gaming has an opportunity to improve overall shot-making if they can reduce the variable delay. As we all know, the best players are the best because they can better control the ball and the shot direction. Let's say arbitrarily that they can cut the variation in half. The current situation will give you a shot distribution in a fan shape from the intended target. If they can reduce the size of that fan by fifty percent, then the shots will have a better chance of going where the players want them to go. The better players' shot fan shapes are smaller than the average players', but everyone should see an improvement in their game play if Chicago Gaming can get this done. Good luck to CGC!

But then it really won’t play like an original!

13
#464 1 year ago
Quoted from hlaj78:

Irregardless...

You lost me at irregardless.

Quoted from twenty84:

Having looked at many tracings from both they seem very similar, at least once I did them correctly on the AFM.

OP, great job on following up your initial experiment, admitting your mistake, and continuing to share your methodology and findings. You have helped many of us learn a lot in this thread. Many thanks.

#465 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I used to work for a company doing military drones. This is a scenario where some guy is sitting in Nevada, using a joystick, controlling a real airplane in the middle East using satellites to bounce the joystick actions to the airplane and video back to his display. Can land the airplane this way. There were studies done with lag and when did the pilot notice it vs felt instantaneous.. I never saw the test data but the conclusion relayed to me was 300ms. So everything was built to get under that threshold. This is consistent with everyone reporting 200ms reaction times, etc..
So I find all this faffing about regarding 0-5ms just nuts.. it can't matter. There's no way 0-5ms matters.

I think you're making the same mistake I made, which is assuming pinball is directly comparable to something else where milliseconds are at play. The tolerance for lag is going to vary depending on the matter at hand. If you think about it, flying a drone is not the same fast-paced exercise as pinball. You have a lot more tolerance with the drone. Likewise the tolerances in pinball are not as tight as the tolerances in playing an instrument (especially at a fast pace like 64th notes). This is where I think I made my mistake. Also, whether or not the lag is noticeable is likely to depend on if there is a reference point in "real time". In other words, if everything is off by 300 ms you may be able to better compensate.

As an experiment I took a track I was working on and moved the bassline 300 ms later than the drums. If you can imagine the length of an average drum hit, 300 ms is about the amount of time it would take to play that drum hit from start to end). This shift is very apparent to the ear and I'm fairly certain that EVERYONE in this thread would notice that delay in button press to flipper activation. It would be distracting, even without a point of reference.

The next thing I did was shift the bassline 5 ms and I'm fairly certain that nobody here would be able to detect that shift. If a bassplayer was PLAYING the bass, and the sound fell 5 ms later, he may notice, but that's likely only because he's got a real time reference. Even then I'm not sure he'd notice. However, if the bass line was played at 64th notes instead of 1/4 or 1/8 notes, I THINK the 5 ms delay would become much more perceivable because the tolerances tighten up. This has been my own experience with small ms delay in audio. When things get fast and intricate, I tend to notice the lag a lot more. Also, if I take the drum tack, duplicate it and play one of the drum tracks 5 ms later, the 5 ms delay becomes VERY perceivable (this is called "phasing"). This noticeable difference is largely because you have a "real time" point of reference.

I'm just waxing philosophic here just like (mostly) everyone else, but I do think many of you would be surprised how 5 ms of difference can be perceivable depending on the situation. The bottom line appears to be that it's not going to be very perceivable in pinball!

#466 1 year ago

Not quite my tempo.

#467 1 year ago

Your audio examples, are on audible preception only.. the pinball problem is a closed loop of visual perception, prediction/reaction, and muscle response

The stop watch story of hitting within 6ms is a bit closer than your audio stuff. For that I dunno.. I feel stop watch counting up to a second is a special case of a very constrained problem space. For pinball, you have way more variables that effect what's going on that the prediction problem is not as simple as watching a stop watch closely where the duration of a second has been burned into our brains since childhood with clocks everywhere, and way more close to typical reaction time problems which everyone seems to agree is 200-300ms problems. Maybe a really really good pinball player with tons of muscle memory and predictive models burned into their brain gets down to 80ms but after that think people are being generous. The clear coat friction, ball dipples, flipper mech manufacturing tolerances/slop, etc will be bigger factors.

Whatever, we've proven that in this regard, the old and new games aren't that different even zoomed in to way beyond the problem domain(IMO)

Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

I think you're making the same mistake I made, which is assuming pinball is directly comparable to something else where milliseconds are at play. The tolerance for lag is going to vary depending on the matter at hand. If you think about it, flying a drone is not the same fast-paced exercise as pinball. You have a lot more tolerance with the drone. Likewise the tolerances in pinball are not as tight as the tolerances in playing an instrument (especially at a fast pace like 64th notes). This is where I think I made my mistake. Also, whether or not the lag is noticeable is likely to depend on if there is a reference point in "real time". In other words, if everything is off by 300 ms you may be able to better compensate.
As an experiment I took a track I was working on and moved the bassline 300 ms later than the drums. If you can imagine the length of an average drum hit, 300 ms is about the amount of time it would take to play that drum hit from start to end). This shift is very apparent to the ear and I'm fairly certain that EVERYONE in this thread would notice that delay in button press to flipper activation. It would be distracting, even without a point of reference.
The next thing I did was shift the bassline 5 ms and I'm fairly certain that nobody here would be able to detect that shift. If a bassplayer was PLAYING the bass, and the sound fell 5 ms later, he may notice, but that's likely only because he's got a real time reference. Even then I'm not sure he'd notice. However, if the bass line was played at 64th notes instead of 1/4 or 1/8 notes, I THINK the 5 ms delay would become much more perceivable because the tolerances tighten up. This has been my own experience with small ms delay in audio. When things get fast and intricate, I tend to notice the lag a lot more. Also, if I take the drum tack, duplicate it and play one of the drum tracks 5 ms later, the 5 ms delay becomes VERY perceivable (this is called "phasing"). This noticeable difference is largely because you have a "real time" point of reference.
I'm just waxing philosophic here just like (mostly) everyone else, but I do think many of you would be surprised how 5 ms of difference can be perceivable depending on the situation. The bottom line appears to be that it's not going to be very perceivable in pinball!

#468 1 year ago
Quoted from herg:

Not quite my tempo.

Rushing or dragging?

#469 1 year ago

I play fighting games. They run at 60 frames per second, and frame data is very important, every frame matters. Big difference between a 3 frame and 4 frame move in terms of play, but no one can actually react to that difference in real time.

Do the math and a frame is roughly 17 milliseconds.

Once you get over around 4 frames of lag people really do start to notice. That's 68 miliseconds. I highly doubt anyone could feel the lag in a single frame, and that's still more than 4x the difference we're talking about here.

I get that people are looking for some explanation to match what they think they feel, but the math just isn't there for this to be it in my mind. The time difference is just too damn fast and small.

#470 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I play fighting games. They run at 60 frames per second, and frame data is very important, every frame matters. Big difference between a 3 frame and 4 frame move in terms of play, but no one can actually react to that difference in real time.
Do the math and a frame is roughly 17 milliseconds.
Once you get over around 4 frames of lag people really do start to notice. That's 68 miliseconds. I highly doubt anyone could feel the lag in a single frame, and that's still more than 4x the difference we're talking about here.
I get that people are looking for some explanation to match what they think they feel, but the math just isn't there for this to be it in my mind. The time difference is just too damn fast and small.

I agree. However, there are probably 10 (or 100) other variables at play here beyond the flipper-coil response timing that could cumulatively result in the remake "feeling different". People who are interested should run their own experiments to see what they can find. It is fascinating in a nerdy way, as evidenced by the interest in this thread.

Everyone else should just enjoy playing their remakes and make whatever adjustments are necessary to play them well. Or sell me their "defective" machines at 50% off and I'll enjoy playing them for them.

#471 1 year ago
Quoted from twenty84:

The original has a transistor that energizers the coil. I would guess on the remake there is software emulation in the path which is much slower.

Or maybe just that our reflexes have aged since 1995/1997...

#472 1 year ago
Quoted from KozMckPinball:

Or maybe just that our reflexes have aged since 1995/1997...

Exactly,
We could be tired, drunk, sick etc. All of that will affect play as well.

#473 1 year ago

I have played 2 MMs recently and have MMR at home. Both MMs were on route and beat. The MMR feels more responsive and adjustable flipper strength might compensate if there was a difference anyway. Faster bat speeds.

#474 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Your audio examples, are on audible preception only.. the pinball problem is a closed loop of visual perception, prediction/reaction, and muscle response
The stop watch story of hitting within 6ms is a bit closer than your audio stuff. For that I dunno.. I feel stop watch counting up to a second is a special case of a very constrained problem space. For pinball, you have way more variables that effect what's going on that the prediction problem is not as simple as watching a stop watch closely where the duration of a second has been burned into our brains since childhood with clocks everywhere, and way more close to typical reaction time problems which everyone seems to agree is 200-300ms problems. Maybe a really really good pinball player with tons of muscle memory and predictive models burned into their brain gets down to 80ms but after that think people are being generous. The clear coat friction, ball dipples, flipper mech manufacturing tolerances/slop, etc will be bigger factors.
Whatever, we've proven that in this regard, the old and new games aren't that different even zoomed in to way beyond the problem domain(IMO)

Not to beat this horse anymore but I'm still trying to wrap my mind around all of this so I'm just thinking out loud here.

My original audio example came from using audio hardware to trigger sound in software. It's not just listening for delay, it's the lag between hitting a button/triggering the device and hearing the sound. The easiest way to think about it is keyboard player pressing a key. So, you press the key and X milliseconds later the sound comes out of the speaker. The way I think about this, there is the same perception, prediction, and muscle response as with pinball. If you think of a pinball rolling down the inlane to your flipper, you're waiting and anticipating the right time to hit the button so that you can make your shot. With a keyboard, it's waiting for the right time to hit your note. I don't think it has much to do with reacting to the ball flying at you (which is where I THINK the 200-300 ms might be applicable), you're just waiting for the right time to hit the flipper button to make the shot. If you hit the button at the right time, but the flipper doesn't trigger until 1/10 of second later, will that screw you up?

So in my mind the question is not your reaction time, it's how long does it take after you hit the button for the flipper to trigger, and at what point does that lag become noticeable? I think 80 ms is still quite a long time. It's not a long time if you're measuring how long it takes you to react to a something flying at you, but it's a long lime to get the response once the button is pushed. 80 ms of delay would basically feel like, if you quickly press the button, right as soon as you release the button the flipper goes off.

I suspect they put some effort into engineering the flipper lag issue and ended up around 5 ms because that's where it becomes nearly impossible for a person to perceive the lag. In that article I listed the author found that "Two sounds seem to fuse into one acoustic sensation if they are separated by less than 2 to 5 milliseconds." I'm not sure the same holds true for pressing a button and getting a response but with flipper lag being around 5 ms I wonder if that threshold is similarly applicable. Also suspect that the tolerances required in making shots in pinball aren't tight enough for 4 or 5 ms of variation to matter, which is why its not noticeable.

That's my line of thinking anyway (I am not a scientist).

#475 1 year ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

I suspect they put some effort into engineering the flipper lag issue and ended up around 5 ms because that's where it becomes nearly impossible for a person to perceive the lag.

I think Williams chose to poll at 4ms because that was the best the 6809 cpu could do without impacting other things. Whitestar had the same cpu but could do better since the DMD code was offloaded.

Had they had faster cpus I would think they would poll more often, just to reduce the variance.

#476 1 year ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I used to work for a company doing military drones. This is a scenario where some guy is sitting in Nevada, using a joystick, controlling a real airplane in the middle East using satellites to bounce the joystick actions to the airplane and video back to his display. Can land the airplane this way. There were studies done with lag and when did the pilot notice it vs felt instantaneous.. I never saw the test data but the conclusion relayed to me was 300ms. So everything was built to get under that threshold. This is consistent with everyone reporting 200ms reaction times, etc..
So I find all this faffing about regarding 0-5ms just nuts.. it can't matter. There's no way 0-5ms matters.

300ms is very very noticeable. 300ms will lead to 'walkie-talkie' type conversations in real-time conversation where you even end up talking over each other. Try playing any video game with 300ms screen lag and you'd go banannas. 300ms may have been what they felt was 'tolerable', but that's what it was before it was noticeable by the pilot? No way.

#477 1 year ago
Quoted from bcd:

I think Williams chose to poll at 4ms because that was the best the 6809 cpu could do without impacting other things. Whitestar had the same cpu but could do better since the DMD code was offloaded.

They could have made a shorter guaranteed respons time if they wanted to. I am sure the service interval is what it is, because it was found sufficient.

Also, important to mention, the power source to coils are 100Hz/120Hz rectified AC. Period times 10ms/8.3ms. Where perhaps half of this interval can be considered a variance of the power coil pulse to flipper response timing. So what difference does it make to have the button to power coil pulse timing (a lot) tighter than this?

#478 1 year ago

*shrug* like I said, I didn't see data myself. It was turned into a requirement for systems engineering that the whole round trip between commanded input to seeing a response by aircraft via the video fed back was not to exceed 300. So I will give you that it may be noticeable at some point in time earlier.

Also, most video games are not intended to be physics simulators.. the real world moves slower.. so I don't think that's always a fair thing to compare to.

Quoted from flynnibus:

300ms is very very noticeable. 300ms will lead to 'walkie-talkie' type conversations in real-time conversation where you even end up talking over each other. Try playing any video game with 300ms screen lag and you'd go banannas. 300ms may have been what they felt was 'tolerable', but that's what it was before it was noticeable by the pilot? No way.

#479 1 year ago

If anyone is thinking of doing their own flipper timing measurements please watch this video. It explains what I was getting at before with the initial hookup of the scope to the flipper coils. In the OPs case he was using a battery operated scope with what must be isolated inputs, so this wasn't an issue (otherwise there would have been sparks!). However, with a regular mains powered scope you need to be aware of where you are connecting your scope probe ground lead.

#480 1 year ago
Quoted from FalconPunch:

Enough of them have expressed their opinion on it. I played the remake for 3 hours and thought I was going crazy. Then played the original 1 hour later. I am convinced something is different.
Find me a couple of top players who say they play the same. I haven't found any.
Neil, you have both remakes. If you are happy with them then just be happy with them. Don't need to get defensive about it.

heh - just a lot of FUD on this topic

#481 1 year ago

Could someone please post the different flipper plunger lengths so that I can check to see if mine are correct?

I always thought that mine came up quite low compared to my other games but I assumed that was how it's supposed to be. Now I am unsure and I don't want to buy new plungers and find mine were in fact already correct.

#482 1 year ago

Interesting read, maybe let this guy do a re-test:
http://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 26.50
From: $ 22.00
$ 89.99
7,995
Machine - For Sale
West Chicago, IL
$ 35.00
$ 239.00
$ 40.00
Lighting - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
$ 50.00
Lighting - Led
Rock Custom Pinball
From: $ 6,499.00
Pinball Machine
Flip N Out Pinball
$ 15.00
Cabinet - Decals
Siegecraft Electronics
$ 90.00
Lighting - Under Cabinet
Rock Custom Pinball
€ 197.00
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 369.00
Cabinet - Decals
Mircoplayfields
$ 79.00
Wanted
Machine - Wanted
Ashburn, VA
$ 89.99
€ 159.00
Cabinet - Toppers
FlipperLED
7,800 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Cheraw, CO
From: $ 9.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 25.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Photos
€ 3.70
$ 45.00
Cabinet - Other
Rock Custom Pinball
Great pinball charity
Pinball Edu
There are 482 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 10.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside