Who can blame him? Wh2o is overrated crap imo.

Somewhat kidding with that comment, but who cares, it's just some troll.

1 troll does not ruin the ratings system.

Crappy to know we have Trolls.

They are like mice once you have them they don't go away.

Catch and release ??

pst I think that hey think that with one rating it will drop the prices down to were they can afford them.

That is really bad.The lowest rating that I ever gave a pin is "6". Come on now its all pinball and not any pinball needs to be rated lower than 5.

This reminds me of some reviewers I've looked into over at IPDB that gave some popular machines something like 2's across the board. I'd go look at the summary of their ratings and their average rating of all machines would be something between a 3 and a 5 out of 10. Okay, so if the average rating of all the pinball machines you've played and rated is that far below average, maybe pinball is just not for you. Give it up and go find a new hobby, like golf or bowling.

Maybe some of these raters are just joking, as some of these same raters will rate a lot of the usual top 20 pins ridiculously low, then pull out all the stops on ratings of machine that are usually considered turds and rate them really high. Who knows though? Perhaps these raters are serious, and they happen to make-up some "pin turd army" that I've known nothing about up to this point, with their mission being to knock every-one's favorite pins off their pedestals and replace them with turds.

I don't want to name any of these so called "turd" machines, because honestly, even the worst pinball machine I've ever played still provided some fun and entertainment for me, because "Hey, it's pinball", and I like pinball.

You're referring to g61z7, loves to downgrade almost all machines. Very afraid to show his real identity.

Exactly!

I really think Robin should check into this,as I think these ratings need to be put on hold.

Newsflash: people are biased.

I'm sure all of us think some machines are overrated and others underrated.

There are statistical ways these heavy-handed reviews can be processed so they don't have too major an impact on the averages.

In any case, it's also worth noting when someone really dislikes a machine rather that just rate them all in the middle.

Many people give these ratings weight when they are looking for machines. I know I did years ago when I first started my collection. Maybe we could throw out ratings that are a percentage below the norm.

If you take a look at each machine you will see major outliers that in some cases can actually have an impact when a game has few overall total rankings.

I just rated RCT today since I now have quite a few games on it and feel like I can more accurately rate it. I checked out the other ratings and sure enough there is a rating of 2???

really, a 2???

I think some of the outliers are because they were ranked prior to the current and better/more detailed rankings system was incorporated?

On RGP they outed him. Flipperfingers is the one doing it here on Pinside. Sounds similar. I hope Robin just deletes those ratings and comments. They are not constructive in any way, nor do the comments actually reflect the commentors gameplay opinions. Just straight pointless hate.

I like the idea of kicking off outliers but it could be difficult.

Possible improvement?
I suggest any game with over 50 rankings has a calculated avg so why not also calculate the SD and publish that.

A tight standard deviation shows that most ranking are similar. A wide SD shows that either the game is very polarizing or that people are troll ranking...

I just looked at the ratings for TSPP. B_R gave the game a 5. I'm sure most people would think that's unreasonably low from any objective standpoint. But if that's how he feels, especially in comparison to other titles, that's his choice. When compiling the overall ratings, it's prudent to throw out a certain amount of top and bottom ratings to guard against people who are simply trying to manipulate the standings.

As far as WH2O, I own the game, and it's probably the least-favorite game of mine in my collection. It's very linear in gameplay. You have to do the same things over and over, every game to progress anywhere interesting and it takes a long time before the game even becomes exciting. Giving that game a low score isn't necessarily unwarranted. It's a game that some people love and other people hate. I think if there was a software update to WH2O it could be a truly great game, but the way it is, the software ruins an otherwise really great playfield.

"How has Whitewater climbed in these rankings so much? Aside from the waterfall, there is not one exciting shot on this one. Can the whirlpool possibly take any longer?”

with a 1.83 rating.Not an objective rating that I would like to read. It screws up the data and there is no way to tilt it so you don't have to read it. I say delete that users ratings and move on. No reason to let one person muck it up for everyone else. We are on a moderated vs. unmoderated forum for a reason.

edit: That person and several others have done this. But they have 9s and 10s in their ratings also, so they are not trolling ratings in general like I thought. Everyone can hate any machine and love others, I personally have never played one I would rate below a 5 but that's just me. MM a 3.85 really?

A 5 is a dislike for the pin which is ok,A 2 given to any pin is a troll rating and trying to manipulate the ratings on certain pins.

I must be the only one who finds this less egregious than the prevailing lemming-like method of rating games in general. It seems many people have already formed their opinion before ever putting their fingers on the flipper buttons.

Those enamored with the thought of playing a highly rated pin will inevitably rate it artificially high. Those that have read negative things about a pin will carry that bias with them during their first (and probably only) play and subsequent rating.

Tracy

There's no way the gross ratings will ever please everybody. Asking to have someone else's opinion invalidated seems a bit oppressive. Everyone has a different opinion. Now if you have people creating fake accounts to add multiple ratings, I'd say that's a problem.

Maybe we should have a system similar to KLOV where you must be recommended by another user or pay a donation to be able to post here. Just food for thought.

Exactly.

Part of the problem is that if someone strongly disagrees with the current rating of a pin, they may intentionally rate the pin lower (or higher) than they normally would if they are being objective with the purpose of trying to get the overall rating closer in line with how they feel. I have to say that I've probably been guilty of this to a degree in the past.

The thing I love about Pinside's ranking system is that it is public, so you can see what every member has rated a pin.

By the way, I've rated Creech a 5.2. I went in and changed my rating from the 4.8 that it was, being objective as I could on each category and the 5.2 is the result despite some perfect scores I gave it for things like cab art. Yet, I find things to enjoy in all pins like others have said, but this proves to me that you can objectively rate a pin a 5/10 and still get some enjoyment out of it.

Did you guys watch American Idol? Last week the most talented singer, Jessica Sanchez got voted off and had to be saved by the judges. What makes you think the average from the general public is always going to indicate the highest quality?

I don't think the general public rates pins.

+1 . Really is a bonus to know who is trashing half the pins. The monkey comment I think is out of line as well. No reason to call other Pinsiders monkeys.

You know what I mean... the pinball community certainly cannot agree on common criteria to judge machines. Some people hate certain themes and that affects their overall ratings, and vice-versa. Some games are rated based on peoples' fond memories of playing the games in arcades; others are based on popularity. Some people fixate on the artwork, others on gameplay; some people like short ball times; some people like long ball times. Some people are into all the comic book theme stuff, and some people aren't. Some people are offended by bad language or references to things like "hell" or provacative-looking women and some people find those things appealing. Some people hate any machine that's "too different" (there are definitely P2K-haters who don't even consider the game "pinball"). Some people can't stand EMs. Some people have prejudice against entire manufacturers. Different strokes for different folks. There's no way a universal ranking is going to make everyone happy no matter what.

What Pinside could to is allow people to have a "friends list", and then offer the ability to re-compile a top-10 list of games based on their friends' scores. Then each person could seek out like-minded people who judge the way they judge and consider that list to be the most "legitimate."

Don't forget that some people are mentally retarded.

On Newegg, you always see someone say they "knocked 2 stars off" because the deliveryman came before they got home, or because a standard hard drive was too big to fit in their netbook.

say what you will...i think when someone rates so low thats its not a proper refection of the game, they do so to manipulate the rankings for thier own personal reasons. There is simply no logical reason to rate mm at 3.428, etc.,for some of the other ridicoulous low ratings.

I don't think I have every looked at the ratings of any of the machines I own or was even thinking of buying. If one comes up for sale that I haven't seen I just look at the pics of it on IPDB . If it looks neat I consider it further and may put the title in the search engine and see what comes up on the forums about it. So I guess that is kinda a ratings system? Maybe?
Probably why all my games are Duds? Ha, just kidding I like my games, just wish I could swing a few Newer titles too add to them.

Bill in Indiana

Exactly....there should not even be an expectation that everyone will be happy with a Top 100 list. It just isn't going to happen. Having said that, while there are most definitely some rankings that I strongly disagree with in the Top 100 (titles ranked too high and too low), overall I think it is a pretty good general indicator of what pins are good playing titles.

I am a big fan of context. I give more attention the comments than just the numbers anyway.

Those show's outcomes are written from the beginning.

They are just entertainment, not actual talent shows. Everyone is reading from a script. The funny little banter, the drama, the "behind the scenes" clips; everything is scripted.

I don't believe in reviews.

Whether it be pertaining to cars, movies, stores or pinball machines, I ignore most all.

Its common for most any sort of analytics (particularly of subjective data) to ignore the outliers. Not sure if the ratings for pins (be it here, pbdb, etc) are done that way....but it is common for just these reasons. I tend to look at the bottoms of any ratings just to get an idea of the level and number of bone-heads reviews and bump up the overall a tad the more stupid ones I see.

There's a perfectly logical reason: to offset others who have been giving it perfect 10s. I'm not saying I'd do something like that myself, but I can see why people do it.

I'm sure every one of us feels there are some games that are ridiculously under or over-rated. Personally, I am flabbergasted that a game like RFM is rated lower than Getaway: High Speed II on IPDB. IMO, RFM is one of the most innovative and amazing games ever created and for it to not be in the Top 5 is mind-blowing, but again, it's a testament to peoples opinions. A lot of people do not like the P2K platform even though it's really well designed and tons of fun to play.

The same thing goes for JPop's games. IMO they're very attractive, but the rulesets are shallow and the scoring is unbalanced and the games get old and repetitive fast. But some people love everything JPop does and they'll always rank the stuff super duper high.

BSD is another litmus test game. Some people love it; some people hate it. MM is like that as well. I don't think MM deserves to be in the top 3. That machine's value is artificially-inflated IMO, but obviously many others disagree. Everybody has different opinions. I think trying to suggest some people shouldn't be allowed to rate because you disagree with the way they rate isn't fair. You have to take the good with the bad. Let the system and the written reviews reveal more insight than just average numbers.

I'll be the first to admit, I usually take these ratings w/ a grain of salt. I always judge a pin by me, first hand, playing one. And, I also try not to be bias only after a couple of plays. Sometimes after playing one, I do go back at look at some of these reviews whether I agree or disagree... I'll say it and say it again "Different strokes for different folks!"

I always love the reviews with "good player, great game, piece or crap, this game sucks!" Can you be a little more diligent in your reviews?!?!?

Another case is on IPDB. There is a fellow on there (name withheld), who is just a die-hard em guy. I was looking at his reviews, and I swear, EVERY solit state/dmd game he played, he just didn't care for them. Really??? Then why post your opinions - JUST because you love the EM area? Just don't get it....

ok, I agree with your points, totally. Maybe not logical, wrong choice of words, but also not properly refecting the actual game. It may not be top 3 , top ten...but its certainly not 3.4 and there must be a reason for that rating other than the game deserves that low a rating. Everyone entitled to thier opinions...but cmon, something wrong with those very low ratings (not just mm)...must be more behind it..just saying.

I always try to use a scale of 10 just like school grades. A 6 is a D, a 5 is a fail. Even somehting like IJ4 I wouldn't give a 2 or 3 rating.

Everything comes out in the wash. If you look at the top 10, you don't see any anomalies. Even if you see pins that are not your personal favorite, you can at least understand why somebody else would rank them so high. Most rankings from other sites match up to these, plus being such a subjective system, it is too difficult to be standardized.

I would bet that if you opened up WOZ to be ranked, it would be ranked a top 10 pin WITHOUT ANYBODY PLAYING IT. (Odds are it will be a nice game, but just showing a point)

I read a ranking on IPDB where somebody knocked down a pin because the flipper was broken. (Yeah, that is how it was supposed to play) I also hate when people knock a game down on cost. "Like the game, but not worth the price". You're not buying it, your rating it.

I just don't take these things too seriously.

+1

A statistician would likely say to have a "fair" rating system when the underlying ratings themselves are subjective, you should kick out the bottom and top 10% of the ratings.

In something like pinball when people may be prone to vote for their own games or something (possibly to raise value or out of jealousy), perhaps that should be increased to the top and bottom 15%.

Couldn't agree more, and I really think this happens far too often.

Scientifically speaking, more than 2 standard deviations from the mean would be considered an outlier.

It becomes slightly more complicated to decide which ratings to eliminate when dealing with a moving average but I am sure some proper coding could account for this.

I wouldn't be surprised if robin was already throwing the outliers out.

On a related subject, I think the "homer" factor of games getting overrated by their owners is far more impactful on the ratings than the few ratings trolls out there.

When I am reading comments, I attempt to find ratings from about 10 different pinsiders whose personalities and pin style are similar to mine. I will not identify them but I appreciate what they say. I will probably go back to the ratings and make more specific comments on some machines.

I do have 2 pins rated below 5. One I thought was just a pathetic excuse for a game and the other one has a theme that I find revolting. I actually try hard to make my machines ratings reflect exactly the order of how much I enjoy them

One thing I note is that several people don't like a game because of the backglass or music.

Other than walking up to the machine or watching someone else play, I rarely notice either so they have little significance to my personal ratings.

Sermon over. Have a nice weekend peeps!

At the end of the day, all that matters (to me) is that the rating can be adjusted by the individual down the road. That is what makes it a good system in my eyes. Gameplay quality varies so much from machine to machine. Was it level/pitched correctly? Dirty? Shopped? Bad day? All these things play a subconscious part when rating unfortunately. It's good to know we can go back in and fix it whenever we find the same machine in better condition than the last. Like jimjim said: "Everything comes out in the wash..." The "true" rating will eventually shine through, no biggie.

If anything, Robin should bump up the amount of ratings a pin should receive before it can enter the list.
Just my two tokens though... (It IS 2012 after all! )

I totally agree regarding the backglass not really mattering (though I note I don't really care for backglasses with an actors picture on it), but I think music on a pin is a really important feature. A really bad sound track can really harm a game IMHO.

I believe I can see your point. I would say for me that the only way I even notice the music is if it is annoying. I guess that still indicates importance though.

That's exactly why I have not rated any machines thus far. I simply have not gotten deep enough into most games to form solid opinions. I can easily see people overrating the games in their own collections because they have had the time to learn all of the shots, rules, and goals; and can adjust the settings to make it more fun for them. Underrating a game could mean the exact opposite, maybe they just didn't give it a chance to begin with.

I definitely read the ratings, but as others have said I take them with a grain of salt. I've never met a pinball machine that I wouldn't keep playing over and over if it was the only one in the room.

Sure there are some really stinky farts out there, but I wouldn't call any pinball game a complete turd.

Now THERE is a theme for the modern age!

I have been a member here since 03 and don't post a lot. But I'd like to chime in. I use rating as a guideline. I always go with my own experience with the games I'm interested in. I hated Addams Family and Indiana Jones at first because all the ones I played were so beat, once I played ones that worked I knuckled under and got both in restored form and love them. Cost is relevant to me, if I love the pin I'll pay more for a good example, the above mentioned Addams and IJ for example. I personally like Medieval Madness, but don't love it so spending 10k plus for a 15 year old routed pin seems high to me, especially when new pins are under 5k and high end new pins under 7k. I'd pay 4 to 5 k though. Would I rate it a 3 no. I would however rate any EM under a 5. The main reason is I don't care for EM game, others love them. Since this guy rates other games from Wiliams and Stern pretty high, he may simply hate Medieval Madness or spiderman.

I guess my point is I don't take any rating personally, even on the games I own. All that matters is that I enjoy playing the game.... And of course it doesn't hurt if the wife likes them too!

Yep. See below.

Also agree. However, there is one situation where a good review can be useful. When I'm offered a game I've never played for a great price, I always check pinballreviews.com. The reviews there are written by good players and don't hold back. If they don't give a game at least one thumb up, I won't buy it. Period. I don't read any other reviews.

While I don't write formal reviews for games myself, I won't hesitate to give folks my opinions of games in forums like this. Ask me about any game I've played and I'll tell you everything* I know about it, good or bad.

* wiz mode details may be fuzzy