Jukeboxes and pins are two different animals but the nostalgia factor built into both and the age demographics are similar. 45s made the 78 juke obsolete but some 78 models were still very collectible. The download box might have made the cd box collectible except they didn't have a chance. Most cd boxes have been ripped up and modded into download boxes by installing kits.

If pinball can't get back into the mainstream like it was at its zenith then I still worry about its future. There were days when you didn't have to hunt to find a game on location as they were everywhere. Kids built memories and now as adults we want games in our homes. When we are gone will our kids want our games? Will they want new games? Only time will tell.

Pinball has evolved into a market much like Harley motorcycles with a factory turning out a few models, with different trim, and a huge aftermarket for add ons. In my opinion this move may have saved pinball by injecting the cash needed to keep the companies above water. Remember I starting buying pins when WMS was still making new ones At any rate I don't look at pins as an investment. I look at them as entertainment that I get to enjoy over and over like a classic car, boat, etc. if they go up in value great. If they don't that's fine too. I'm not gambling with the rent money lol.

One other point. Music can be recreated on a phone and all the mechanical problems go away. But is hearing a song on my iPhone the same as hearing it on vinyl through a tube amp on my jukebox. No it isn't not to me the jukebox sounds better. However, can you recreate the pinball experience on an iPad? No you can't (to me and you and the other folks here because we know better we have a frame of reference). However the average kid or non pinhead doesn't have that frame of reference. The pinball app on his iPad is just as good as music on his iPad. He doesn't know or have the longing for that sound of the record or that ball on a real playfield.

WOZ and RAZA provide fantastic pinball innovation....and that is what is needed in the hobby to keep it going strong...people won't keep buying the same box with different art, same fan layouts with minor tweaks without some innovation.......

Pinball is seeing a big resurgence since about the time JJP entered the market (and brought me into it at the time), competition makes competitors work harder and create better products, simple as that...I actually remember debating on buying a BBH initially as the new Stern release, glad I opted for the Lotr Le for $5250 with shaker/shipped as they were collecting dust on the distro floors..

If pinball keeps innovating and improving it will stay strong and that is what I see with the JJP and Stern battle along with the boutique guys like Jpop and SkitB....

Think Slot machine technology, yes there will be on glass video in the future, it makes too much sense for pinball and the technology is already there....

One thing that may affect pins is the possibility that all these "collectors" that don't actually play the pins get tired of these pins collecting dust and move out from the hobby....

Globally, when interest rates rise, and its coming soon enough with the Fed stopping QE/printing money, I worry about a major bond bubble and simultaneous drop in the stock markets and then another global recession or least what feels like one, that obviously won't help any hobby....anybody remember the Stern layoffs and pins produced during that time frame? Don't think that can ever happen again?

At the end of the day, pinball needs people that like to play pins, not just "collect" and innovation and technology need to be able to draw new people into the pinball world, I'm optimistic its here and coming along.....JJP, Jpop (wait until you see what's coming there!) are doing it and I imagine Stern is on the way with Star Trek so we get to participate and enjoy...good times!!

Are you kidding? My pins ARE my kids' college fund ....

I think you mean "were".

No pop, but a deflation for MM after the MMR announcement.

It won't pop but I see great deals ahead.

I'm not sure what you're talking about that the bubble didn't burst, it definitely did on one title (MM) and A list games across the board have taken a pretty good price cut as a result. Prices around here have taken a 10 to 20% cut across the board on most titles. You're essentially bumping a post saying "look I was right" when you actually weren't, lol. I'm a little confused here. It's like saying "hey, I told you Peyton Manning and the Broncos would win the super bowl", and we're like "uh, they didn't", lol.

Not seeing the price drop myself except on pins that might get remade. Also 10-20 percent is NOT a bubble pop. A bubble pop would be 50%+ drop in the average price of a pin. Declare victory when you can get a routed MM for $4k ... And even then it'd only be on the one title most affected by the bubble "popping".

Keep in check? The MM actually went down and was not stagnate...30-40% decrease as it was well north of 8k last year. Again, not a pop, but definitely a leak.

Depends on your definition of a 'pop', but a 30 to 50% reduction in the most popular game (MM) combined with a 10 to 20% reduction in other prices would strike me as a 'pop', since it happened almost instantaneously when the remake was announced...it wasn't a smooth decline, it was just a haircut right then and there. In the midwest, one of my friends has been trying to sell a restored AFM with $1000 in extras for $7500 and it won't sell...that would sold right away last year. Guys up in Omaha are having a hard time selling anything, the one guy from SD had to come down to $4200 to sell his LOTR when last year that was over $5k all day long. Prices are falling on most titles, though some have avoided falling like IM.

That's called an adjustment. Words have meanings.

Unless you're investing in pinball machines, this is "enough said" on the matter IMO.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, there's not enough wealth in this country to keep the home buyer numbers growing. If you want pinball to keep growing, play on location regularly and encourage others to do the same.

There is more than enough wealth to grow the number of buyers in this country, the real issue is that there is not enough interest.

I would agree. You have people paying for a starbucks coffee ($5/day) every morning, eat at the restaurant ($8/day) instead of bringing their lunch and have a $80 wireless plan but complain that they are broke. On a year tab it equals to this $1200 for coffee, $1928 for restaurant, $960 for cell phone. Now I'm not saying that people shouldn't be doing these things but some people bring it to a whole new level of entitlement and needs.

I for one, am feeding my addiction by putting $35 a week in an account. At the end of the year I've got $1800 bucks to spend on a machine. Beats filling my stomach with junk.

IMG_0151.JPG

Hold a second.....I said junk....
Big-Mac.jpg

I think things are slowing down a bit and it takes longer to sell pins, but 1) I don't see that many pins for sale and 2) I don't agree that prices have dropped anywhere close to 20%.

That's OK I keep stealing machines from you guys LOL

In my area, some games (not all obviously, some haven't gone down at all) have dropped 20% besides the obvious MM. Perhaps not in California or the east coast, but there is a definitely a slow down here. Omaha in particular has had some good deals lately.

Got some examples?

I mean at a 20% reduction, a pin that used to sell at $5k would now be selling for $4k. I just don't see that anywhere.

Acdc, TAV , tf , mm , cc...

MM is a given, I'm not talking about the remake(s). That's why I was referring to the 20% reduction (not the 30 to 50% that he referred to regarding the potential remakes...which would include CC).

TF lost value long ago (while the market was still very hot, long before MMr announced etc.), and is nothing new and has nothing to do with the market overall going down. Same can be said regarding TAV.

That leaves ACDC, and that's a pin that Stern is still making today, and there are a ton of them out there. Huge supply, and most people who really want that pin already own it. Even then, it hasn't dropped 20%. The Premiums were $6200.00 NIB shipped. HUO sold for $5600.00 about a year ago (or less). They still sell for over $5k, so you are talking a 10% reduction, not 20%.

All good explanations Rob but a year and half ago we were not making explanations for any games. Just a sign in my opinion .
Like we know marker calls on a bunch if games as soon as next month. Just another explanation but again we were explaining nothing just a while back ; )

If you wanted to buy a new Stern Pro machine every year, you would need, what? $4500-$5000? Something around there? That's $375-$417 per month that you would have to save every month. Obviously, we're talking upper-middle class ($100K and up), but those are the same people that lease fancy cars and go on vacation every year. I think they would be able to swing that much in place of something else, if they liked pinball that much.

No bubble lasts forever. Matter of time. Many of the homeowners on here will tell you that. Media said it would never burst. Wish I had a nickel for every time I hear "You'll never lose money buying real estate"
Starting to hear pinball people saying the same thing now "The value on it will only go up" - Oh yeah? Just wait.

My god, a f'ing bullet couldn't pop this bubble. This discussion will continue, monthly, and the same crap will be discussed 10 years from now from someone still telling us the end is around the corner.

Thanks to apps, video games and being trendy, pinball interest is probably at it's peak right now (relatively speaking). Unless The Rick Stetta movie starring Johnny Depp gets released soon, you're not going to see much more interest than you're seeing now. Many that got in the hobby recently (last 5 years) now have full game rooms. How many more games do you currently have room for?

The home buyer market has grown by huge numbers in the last few years. It's gonna take something huge to keep that market growing at the pace it's been on. I know Stern, JJP and all the others will give it their best shot, but I don't think it's realistic to think it can keep growing at the pace it's been on.

Putting hard numbers on something like this is virtually impossible. Hell, Stern isn't even sure how many of their games go to ops and how many go to home buyers. One very telling piece of data we do have is the Boston pinball survey. Ironically, one of the things we typically skip over there is currently what we should be looking at. Average selling price. Prices started rising significantly in 2010. At the beginning of 2013, they started leveling off. For those that have ignored it completely, the average sales price graph is at the top of the page.

http://www.bostonpinball.biz/eBay112013.htm

This has to be one of the best lines I've read on Pinside in a while. LOL, I think Depp could pull it off.

Steve

What's a RAZA?

Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland

formerly Ben Heck's Zombie Adventureland

I had been in the market for a LOTR for well over 18 months when I finally got mine over the winter.

The Only machines that were going north of $5000 were LEs or CQ.

Players machines were not selling quickly at $4200. This was before the epic MMR official announcement at Expo.

My anecdotal opinion of LOTR had been pretty static on price and still is.

What year are you living in? 2012?

My favorite indicator was the constant excuse talk stared last year about its only slow now but wait until fall, wait until Xmas , wait until tax time , ugh ok maybe it's slowing down a little.

You call 8500.00 for a game keeping prices in check? lol

Not everyone looks at their machines as investments. I know that's hard for some people to believe but it's true.

Its not the apocalypse. But yes in a few years it could be back to what some would call normal prices and more trading of games. The site will still be here and parts will still be bought. The difference will be not as much clamoring for games. That's the first change we will see. many of us already are not lined for the next LE. Its those subtle shifts that will affect things.
There are going to be a bunch of STLEs taking a hit soon. Why would anyone line up for that pain again and again.

I really don't think a crash will cause parts to dry up. There will still be a market for the parts, the people in it to play (rather than make a quick buck) will stay interested. Also if I have a game valued at 3k right now and the entire market dropped 50% then my 3k game is now 1.5k. That is fine because so are all of the other 3k games and I can sell/trade it for another game of like value.

This is closer to what I consider reasonable. IMO, I wouldn't spend anymore than this on any game.

I def think the mad euphoria of 2012 is over and prices have certainly stabilized and lowered in many cases. One thing I've marveled at, however, is how the market steadily rose and then spiked during the aftermath of the financial crisis with pretty intense unemployment, etc. I think that a lot of people have maxed out their space or investment dollars.

But if the economy is really recovering, new people will come into the hobby with disposable income and keep things going to some degree. How much has yet to be determined. But I really think the days of new or desirable machines routinely going for $7-8K are over for awhile. It was euphoria and hype combined with a false sense of scarcity and "this my last chance to get X!"...Now there are plenty of machines available with plenty more to come and people are saner and wiser. Not the people posting prices in Mr. pinball...those people are smoking crack...but I think most of us have survived and will enjoy the new market.

I don't. I buy them to enjoy them and to have friends and family enjoy them also. Pure and simple. I don't assume years down the road the prices will skyrocket and boom, I make a huge profit. It's purely entertainment for me.

Yes I feel like had MMR been priced there then they would have sold me. Hell they would have had my order... Hopefully moving forward the other titles are priced there.

They do? lol