Who here is a Pinvestor?

Meh......I guess I'm not as easily impressed.

Don't get me wrong....it's a gorgeous looking pin and seems like it's built like a tank......but it's no major leap forward. It might help if it was super fun to play, but it's not (IMHO).

I actually like it more than I thought I would. Still can't get past the theme or music sufficiently for it to be added to my small personal collection, but it sure is a good looking machine that I will have no problem putting money in on rout if it makes it to a rout near me.

About 10 - 12 years ago we would go to the auctions to buy Ms.Pacman & Galaga for $500 - $700. The auctioneer couldn't give Mortal Kombats away for $10 each and we would all laugh.

Now when you go, they can't give away the Ms.Pac's, but the MK's are going for $500+ to all the guys in their 20s.

I would love some MK arcade machines . . . only problem is you have to have someone to play it with you to really enjoy it. Also, the real problem with collecting vids is the quality of the product can be had on home consoles. Pinball can't be reproduced in the same fashion.

Also, the real problem with collecting vids is the quality of the product can be had on home consoles.

Vintage arcade cabinets are WAY better than any ps3/xbox disc/download....point Centerflank!!! Face!

images-2.jpeg images.jpeg

Yep. It's just a shift in what was hot, is hot now and what will be hot in the future.

Howdee Doodee, Betty Boop, Evel Knievel, woodrails,Pins, vids, etc...

Personally I can't agree with this. I'm 59 and have no intentions of abandoning Pinball. My wife in her mid 50's loves to play.
My Sons all in their 30's love Pinball and help me out with restorations and repairs.
When young kids see and play them they are enthralled with this "new to them" games.

I think when you love something, you stick with it whether it's pinball, Classic cars and restoration, Vintage Guitars , amps and synths, Stamp and Coin collecting etc.

For the record I've been playing Pinball since I was 10 years old.

Vintage arcade cabinets are WAY better than any ps3/xbox disc/download....point Centerflank!!! Face!

Oh, that poor tiger. I would give you a thumbs up as usual but just can't with that tiger image. Here is something a bit better.

Tiger_3.jpg Tiger.jpg

Oh, I agree with you on that. There are a great many out there who will collect all of their lives and there are collectables that can transcend generations (Star Wars), but for every new guy joining into a hobby like pinball, there are 10 guys that no longer collect Gunsmoke memorabilia ( as an example).

What JJP has done with WOZ isn't paradigm shifting, it's just an incremental shift forward, replacing one video screen (DMD) with another (LCD). When I had the chance to play it, I didn't feel like I was playing the next new thing... I felt like I was playing just any other pinball machine.

Pin2K totally felt like a paradigm shift, however.

I think the company making that modular system with the interactive LCD is making a paradigm shifting game as well.

During my 60 years I have enjoyed collecting many things. With the exception of cars, each of the collections are something to simply view. 4 years ago I realized that pinball games were available along with individuals who would assist in maintaining them. Had the privilege of meeting several other collectors that helped in finding each of the pins that I own. There are many people out there in the same position that I was several years ago. The perceptions of availability and maintenance are improving. This should create an increasing number of new consumers wanting to own. The supply of older pins will reduce each year for reasons such as fire, weather related disasters, ect. . New pins should with improved technology should attract the younger potential buyers. Supply and demand should maintain and help stabilize prices. This hobby will still be subject to corrections with both NIB, and some of the 90s pins that have experienced extraordinary price increases. Regardless of limited numbers, as new consumers enter and old consumers leave, preferences in pins will cause price adjustments. It's a hobby, buy what you can afford , play, and enjoy!

Collin - wow good post. PLEASE tell me more about the jukebox crash or point where I can read. Were there bottom feeders after the crash? Are there still? Did the message boards die(or is time frame wrong?)

Banker - Have you ever witnessed a crash in any other hobby? If so please expound.

I would never sell a pin if I had unlimited space. I may work on that . It's like any other high ticket item (a whole collection). Boats go down, have maintenance, etc. Same with cars. I "try" to use my pins more than my car - not always successful day to day though

edit - i wish we could find some solution to using the ipad and quoting. just not working grrr

I'm not sure why everyone is so confident of this. People cite this alot. How does anyone know for sure? Alot of the people on your neighborhood that have nice houses and nice cars could be up to their eyeballs in dept. How many pinsiders actually have college funds for their kids, assuming they have them?

One thing is for sure, the people that don't see the bubble are the ones living inside it. I'm personally not shocked or worried about the price of pins, but yes, they are alot more expensive than they were a few short years ago. If this means the hobby is growing and can sustain itself, hooray! That would be AWESOME!!!

I have 4 kids mixed boys and girls and none are really interested anymore. The then 16 - 17 year old teens I think maybe played one game on one machine I bought and that was about it.
The young ones had played a little more. My 12 year old played the most, even seemed to get pretty good, but now he never plays. He and friends play XBox and do all the other activities that age does. But no more pinball.

I just don't feel that the following generations will latch on it the same way we all did.

Arcades are a electronic game that the playstaytion killed, then recreated better in the house.

A jukebox just plays music, an iPod can play music better without the need for the mechanical parts.

A pinball is a mechanical game that can't be recreated better in electrical form. iPad is not the same and never will be as good. People love games. Kids love new games. There's always going to be new people mesmerized by pinball.

My 3 year old asks me to play pinball more often then iPad. Because she can see its real.

Jukes could very well be just how Pins might suffer..

The Jukes market was all the older gentlemen... but they were big, heavy, and mechanically complex. The technology shift to CDs and then digital not only antiquated the older styles, it made all the compromises of the old ones (size, weight, complexity) completely go away. Much like the multicades crushed the values of most classic video games. There was a glut of styles out there that many collectors had no interest in as the CD generation was ripped out. (eerily similar to when the DMDs became popular in the 90s and the glut of SS route games)

But Jukes relied so much on nostalgia.. that when your customer base that has that nostalgia passes on.. your market shrinks without much replenishment. Pins are better in that regard in that they have nostalgia AND a play factor.. so the play factor can bring in new hobbyists.

Pins are better off then jukes because of the amusement factor - but they share a lot of similarities...

Me too...

I'm 55, my kids (3 sons) are in their mid to late 20's, my wife is in her early 50's. They/we all play pinball, except for my wife.

My first game purchased was Funhouse in 93', 20 years ago. I don't see myself getting "out" anytime soon.

However, I could/would sell my entire collection and buy a late 50's early 60's Corvette. My wife may enjoy that.

Another thread about
money.jpg

Someone said it earlier in this thread, pinball needs those ultrathin lcd displays someone could make a whitewood playfield with one of those paper thin lcds laying on top of the whitewood and the art for the playfield rendered graphically on the lcd, it could add movable graphics like arrows and a tutorial that teaches you the shots on the screen. That's the same displays in the new slot machines. I think it would be a huge advancement.

I agree that the last ones to see the bubble are those living inside of it. So the question is how to insulate yourself against a possible bubble while still enjoying life inside of it while it lasts?

Personally I don't think of my machines as a being worth X amount. I think of them as being worth 1.75 MM's

Sure, I bought in to the hobby for X amount, but that isn't money I want or need to pull back out in order to live. It's disposable income, like a vacation etc. I think of it as money paid so that I could enjoy membership/ownership for life. Not many hobbies give you that opportunity.

If pinball prices drop by half for any reason and Stern goes out of business, my machines will still have value to someone else and I will value theirs as they compare to mine.

Insulate yourself in the bubble by looking at money spent on this hobby as being gone then if you do make extra money off a machine here or there you'll be pleasantly surprised. Think about those old people that you see on shows like american pickers, some of them know the value of their antiques and others just have the stuff because they love collecting. So the question becomes do you like to collect machines or do you like the monetary value of your machines? I think if you're a collector and hobbyist you'll be much happier. I can have just as much fun on taxi as I can acdc and they are worlds apart in perceived price. The ones that constantly worry about thr bubble are usually too worried about the price of their pins. JMO

I think the issue with jukeboxes is that there are many alternatives these days for the entertainment they provided, so people under 50 generally have no desire to collect them.

Pinball has no real alternative to the entertainment it provides.

I agree 100% about the playfields. Ever seen the pins from Spinball (Verne's World, Jolly Park)? Pretty cool. Mike Pacak brings them to Expo and the Ohio show.

Maybe.

Agree, smart observations here...

Wow...just read through this entire thread. Good debate and discussion here!
As far as Jukes go...I STILL can't find a great looking one in excellent condition for cheap. (at least around here)

Check with Mike Pacak. He's got a bunch of them at his place. PA/OH border isn't exactly close, but not to bad.

I have concluded that prices will continue to rise, unless they don't. Of this I feel confident.

Thanks for that astute observation John Madden. "Ya see the team with most points at the end of the game is probably the winner" lol

Happy to oblige.

*Starts pilfering kids collections*

There are many threads about the "bubble" that some people see in pinball. All in all I see this rising market as a cycle rather than a bubble. I agree that it won't last forever, but I think it will wane rather than pop.

It's interesting to see that economists seem to argue the same points, and reach the same conclusions that those in this thread do. I think most Pinsiders who see the current market as a bubble are applying the "Greater Fool Theory." Maybe they're right, but only time will tell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

One idea about bubbles is that they occur when people start to pay above the intrinsic value for an item. With collector cars, people began paying much more than a new car with greater technology cost. In addition replicas were made for parts, and even for full cars, that could be bought for much less than people were paying for the originals.
It seems to me that pinball at large doesn't yet have this problem. The vast majority of used games can be bought for less than half the price of a new game with similar features. And as we've seen, building a replica machine can be even more expensive than building a machine brand new. Even replicas of unique parts are very expensive to make, which is why we see so few reproductions of ramps or other custom toys. When it becomes normal for prices of used machines to be more than new machines, we might be in trouble.

Interesting reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble

I think the dificulty in duplicating them will help them hold their value.

They also take up far too much space to ever be part of the average househould, which means they'll never have the demand required to force major competition, which means limited innovation and cost savings employed. In other words, if the most that a NIB could fetch in a future market was to come down to 3k, then say good bye to pinball manufacturing.

You guys worry about money to much, Go and enjoy your pin's

Thanks for the info. Does he have a website?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. oofa! Ohio is not close...

What else are we supposed to do at the office, dont' say work

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hG5QhE3qQq4

Come visit us at Chicago Expo in October, where we plan to have games that do a better job of showing off our full vision.

- Gerry
http://www.multimorphic.com

Shoot, it always comes down to prices with these things, with that said OP has some good points, as did Starfighter regarding the mean age for a collectors etc...all true, economic factors play in it as well, however a few thing have changed that could alter the OP's equation regarding pins holding their value: One, there are several new companies that are making new machines, this was not the case a year or two ago, new machines that collectors are buying at record pace, however most of us have finite room in our houses so when a new machine is bought usually something older goes. This messes up the equation because prices are of course the result of supply and demand. If enough new machines get introduced the older ones become let's say more available, this could effect price. Second, the new popularity of pinballs can largely be attributed to hand held devices, such as Ipad and smart phones, as new game get introduced for those devices the pinball apps may fall in popularity (it maybe safe to say this has happend already)which in turn may hamper demand, that along with the introduction of new pinball machines can/should put a ceiling on prices...all of this is of course only my opinion.

PS: How many posts have we seen that say something along the lines of only selling my machine to fund Tron, AC/DC, Metallica or WOZ?

I'm very aware of your machine. It's very cool and I'm not taking anything away from it, you guys have made great technological advancements but what I'm talking about is making a complete playfield out of the ultrathin screens they use on slot machines and these screens are able to be shaped however you need them and are see through if there needed to be something underneath it. Rendering complete playfield art onto one would save from ever having to worry about playfield wear. This would be a huge step for pinball and could have more than one game rendered playfield art for different games. Just some thoughts

Jukeboxes and pins are two completely different animals. can't even compare them.

Those "new" slot machines have had that technology for quite some time. All it is is a traditional LCD screen with the backlight and rear panels removed so the reels show through. Nothing new, and its not paper thin by any means.

Cool application concept though, however the P3 is doing it with the added interactivity... a massive ball detection grid that changes things in real time depending on where your ball track is.

I can't wait to see what those crazy cats at Multimorphic churn up. Thanks for the input! I dig your idea.

I think reproductions led to the demise of antique juke values!

Those "new" slot machines have had that technology for quite some time. All it is is a traditional LCD screen with the backlight and rear panels removed so the reels show through. Nothing new, and its not paper thin by any means.
Cool application concept though, however the P3 is doing it with the added interactivity... a massive ball detection grid that changes things in real time depending on where your ball track is.
I can't wait to see what those crazy cats at Multimorphic churn up. Thanks for the input! I dig your idea.

Well I know they are close toIa to having these available. http://thecoolgadgets.com/ultra-thin-flexible-lcd-display-plastic-film-base-material/

I think having a huge jukebox on my phone led to the demise. Yeah, a juke is a cool item, but as a couple people said above, the entire functionality has been recreated in a format that won't break your back when you carry it up a flight of stairs. But a pin is completely different. I don't care how good a video pinball on an iPad gets, it will never provide the same mechanical satisfaction that a real pin does.

And no matter what happens in the future to the value of my Tron it isn't going anywhere. Up or down, all I want to do is get to the stupid Portal. One of these days... so close...

Jukes are a parallel because of
- they both are heavily driven by nostalgia
- they both represent high dollar 'toys' that serve little practical value
- they both are large, heavy, bulky items
- both hobbies are specialties and not mainstreamed
- both are things people think are cool to look at.. but most would probably never jump in to own one
- both served a primary purpose that no longer exists (route ops - yes I know modern mp3 jukes are out on route.. but not the collector ones)
- both have markets that are primarily second hand, not retail

Jukes offered music and style.. but were huge and fickle. Technology replaced the music and size.. leaving the style to be abandoned as the nostalgia market expired. The collectors market gets crushed as the primary generations die off.. and all the uses of the device can be replicated cheaper, smaller, and more reliable.

Pins are very similar... but the thing Pin has going for it is play vs music. The music was easily replaced.. the physical play of Pin has not been yet. The play has been replaced.. and why coin-op vids got crushed by consoles... but the physcial aspect is still holding on. That is part of why Pins haven't gone the same way as jukes... but the road is very similar... Pins just had a few more rounds in the chamber to fight back with.