(Topic ID: 241035)

Why pinball is prospering


By timarnold

60 days ago



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  • 104 posts
  • 64 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 55 days ago by TRC73
  • Topic is favorited by 8 Pinsiders

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    There are 104 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 59 days ago
    Quoted from YZRider926:

    I was watching my favorite sports team on the video box and the magic magician that speaks about my favorite team like he’s also watching said pinball. So I looked it up and was like neato torpedo. Now here I am.

    What The Who?
    Welcome!

    #52 59 days ago

    A single video game that didn't even exist 2 years ago. All of pinball is a teeny drop in the bucket compared to just one game.

    Fortnite maker Epic looks to have socked away $3 billion in profit over the course of last year. By November, data from Sensor Tower estimated that Fortnite players were spending $1.23 million a day just on iOS.

    #53 59 days ago
    Quoted from Pinless:

    Why is everyone feeding the troll with these long responses?

    You might want to do some googling on 'Tim Arnold Pinball'

    http://bfy.tw/NIPT

    #54 59 days ago

    This happens to every generation, people who're 40 to 60 raise values of those cars, those toys, and those games.

    For the younger gen we're living in a World that what was old is new again. Places like Punch Bowl Social have vintage arcades, and so do a lot of other places.

    Its vogue!

    When people reach 40 to 60 they have money to spend and usually its something they remember fondly, like getting back your first car, or a car you always wanted, or getting back toys you had as a kid.

    Its really that simple.

    Pinball real heyday was in the 90's someone who was 20 in 1990 is now 48 years old.

    #55 59 days ago
    Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

    I often think of Pinball like other Luxury markets.....Nothing that we "Need", but something we "Want".
    For Pinball, especially New Top games or HEP, they are at top dollar.
    Ive seen the upper end sales doing very well in demand to new Pinball owners.....they need a new toy, and
    they have extra cash to spend.
    The "Middle" range, seems to be bit stagnant, other than quality and in demand titles.
    So Extra wealth....(have to start with having some in the first place), has fueled a lot of new buyers, first time buyers.
    I see this in the Jewelry Industry. Flat in the Middle, and only the More expensive, is holding up the industry.
    Thankfully, when games are on route, more people get exposed, and get to put the phone down for a bit,
    and play.
    Funny how a quarter on the glass use to hold ones game place seems so long ago....

    True...now it's the swipe of a prepaid card to play

    #56 59 days ago
    Quoted from drfrightner:

    This happens to every generation, people who're 40 to 60 raise values of those cars, those toys, and those games.
    For the younger gen we're living in a World that what was old is new again. Places like Punch Bowl Social have vintage arcades, and so do a lot of other places.
    Its vogue!
    When people reach 40 to 60 they have money to spend and usually its something they remember fondly, like getting back your first car, or a car you always wanted, or getting back toys you had as a kid.
    Its really that simple.
    Pinball real heyday was in the 90's someone who was 20 in 1990 is now 48 years old.

    Nailed it!

    #57 59 days ago
    Quoted from timarnold:

    Every day the pinball hobby is getting bigger and better. New factories building big boxes full of wires. More pinball shows every weekend. Locations opening up with machines as a side show or even as a big tent attraction. Here at the Pinball Hall of Fame tourists are flooding over the Canadian border with pockets full of their worthless iron quarters and asking "Is it always this hot?'
    In 42 years of operating I have NEVER seen conditions this good.
    As Gary Stern says 'The future is so bright, you have to wear stupid looking white glasses!"
    Why?
    Simple!
    www.thedodo.com
    Look at the cute little puppies and then go play pinball!

    Hi Tim!

    Do you like loud kids?

    Beating on your machines til you want
    To rip off their eyelids...

    Can I copy you and do exactly what you did?

    Start a biz and collect quarters for homeless kids..

    You work all day, tryin to get your games straight, but it would probably be more fun at the club with some ti*s in your face

    And Mr. Bally said “Tim you’re a basehead”

    “Na ah”

    “You’re wasted whys your face red?”

    #58 59 days ago

    4 things boosted it:
    PAPA
    pinball 101
    ifpa
    streams

    those 4 ingredients made it explode.

    #59 59 days ago
    Quoted from silver_spinner:

    4 things boosted it:
    PAPA
    pinball 101
    ifpa
    streams
    those 4 ingredients made it explode.

    Add:

    Visual Pinball

    Craigslist

    Alltek circuit boards

    #60 59 days ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I help maintain 51 games on route for the past 5 years. Pinball would be just fine without Stern. In fact their games (post 5k+ pricing) are rarely the best or even good business choice for operation.

    This sounds like a nightmare to me as an operator. So my route would be Addams Family, Twilight Zone, AFM, MM, and then...what? Houdini, Full Throttle, TNA and all four $8,000+ JJP machines?

    In most places, you could operate modern Sterns almost exclusively and have it pretty easy. I dunno, maybe I've just had good luck.

    #61 59 days ago
    Quoted from Flipper_McGavin:

    I just randomly decided to get into pinball a week ago, no machine yet. I'm 33 years old, but I've never played them in the arcades because they took my quarters too fast. I'm not sure what age group is responsible for this resurgence though.

    My age group I will be 60 this month

    #62 59 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    production that really took a hit starting in 1995

    I picked 1993 as the start of the decline based on sales numbers but I will grant you 1995 is when it really started tanking.

    #63 59 days ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    So my route would be Addams Family, Twilight Zone, AFM, MM, and then...what? Houdini, Full Throttle, TNA and all four $8,000+ JJP machines?

    Some very solid EMs that bring in lots of new people only willing to spend a quarter at the start.
    Plenty of awesome early SS and through sys 11 games. If you dont have out things that are classics from ever era then you are missing great opportunities IMHO. Look at our game list > we route classics like EBD, Frontier, BoP, Jackbot, Atlantis, HS, Sorcerer, etc...; we route oddballs like SST, TMNT
    Toss on the classics like TAF, TZ, Creech, and on down the line. I could easily fill a route of hundreds of games and not buy another single 5k+ Stern. The maintainence on those old games is no more than a new one and the new ones often cost 2x up front.

    You cold route primarily Sterns from the past 3 years and be fine, but man what a boring and repetitive line up IMHO.

    Point being that Stern is sadly NOT the reason pinball is thriving. I would say it is thriving despite their tired but solid formulaic foundation.

    *caveat that it is really nice to see them deviate with things like Beatles and BK3000. Now if they could just get pricing back to sub 5k where it should be (really 4500 is the sweet spot IMO).

    #64 59 days ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Some very solid EMs that bring in lots of new people only willing to spend a quarter at the start.
    Plenty of awesome early SS and through sys 11 games. If you dont have out things that are classics from ever era then you are missing great opportunities IMHO. Look at our game list > we route classics like EBD, Frontier, BoP, Jackbot, Atlantis, HS, Sorcerer, etc...; we route oddballs like SST, TMNT
    Toss on the classics like TAF, TZ, Creech, and on down the line. I could easily fill a route of hundreds of games and not buy another single 5k+ Stern. The maintainence on those old games is no more than a new one and the new ones often cost 2x up front.
    You cold route primarily Sterns from the past 3 years and be fine, but man what a boring and repetitive line up IMHO.
    Point being that Stern is sadly NOT the reason pinball is thriving. I would say it is thriving despite their tired but solid formulaic foundation.
    *caveat that it is really nice to see them deviate with things like Beatles and BK3000. Now if they could just get pricing back to sub 5k where it should be (really 4500 is the sweet spot IMO).

    Great idea!

    Undisputed Market leaders who already have the cheapest games in the market by far usually slash their prices by 20 percent for no good reason. Profits and staying in business aren’t really why they exist.

    The only time in history a manufacturer slashed prices and used that as a promotional point (and stripped their games down to achieve this, which stern OBVIOUSLY would have to do), the endeavor was a dismal failure. Look up “Gottlieb street line” for more information.

    #65 59 days ago

    Decline of billiards helps - fewer and fewer want a large pool table in their game/rec room which was once a must have (and still is for some I know -Foosball is for me but it is in the same boat as billiards). Hard (even more than a pin) to move, they have little resale value. A new pin that is easy to maintain, something different, provides the same or better social interaction and can be resold without too much of a loss seems like a good investment, and PAPA/you tube/virtual pinball/streams are introducing more folks to a pinball option (still amazed of the number of people I meet that don't know they still make pinballs)!

    #66 59 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Pinball was a route operation at the time.. and the arcades were on the upswing. So I disagree with your statement that they died and just took time to stop flopping around. Peak of sales with TAF and TZ had a lot to do with the specific titles, not just the industry trend.
    It's why Alvin G was able to start in 91. Why Sega still bought in as late as 1994 and capcom even later. Arcades were still seeing their second big surge on the backs of SFII, etc. If it was already dead in 1993... none of those people would have bought in AFTERWARDS.
    The consoles were the big blow.. the seed was set with the SNES/Genesis generation... but they hit high gear with the PSX in 1994. From that point on, the home consoles would be kings and the arcades retreating. That also coincides with the steep drop off of WMS production that really took a hit starting in 1995. Warcraft and RTS got big too right around 1995 with games like Command n Conquer.
    I'd pin the knockout punch in 1995.. and it stumbled through on intertia through 96 and into 97 until the operators themselves just couldn't buy the games to float WMS. The 2nd tier producers had all already given up because they didn't have the sales interia and distribution WMS had so they collapsed quicker.
    By 1996, the FPS craze had heated up on PC gaming.. we got quake, and in 98 we got half-life. The one-two blow of 64bit gaming, and the rise of FPS and RTS on PC were the end of the neighborhood arcades.

    Quake and half life ended the arcade visits for me at that time. Now it is a resurgence.

    Riding the wave with a smile on my face!

    #67 59 days ago

    You want to talk about brand loyalty, ask blizzard. I have been playing world of Warcraft since the beginning so over ten years. No plan to quit. Ever.

    But the game is great. Brand loyalty.

    #68 59 days ago
    Quoted from silver_spinner:

    4 things boosted it:
    PAPA
    pinball 101
    ifpa
    streams
    those 4 ingredients made it explode.

    You forgot: “Walk into your girlfriends brothers basement and discovering you can own pinball machines”. I wonder what I would be doing with my money if I hadn’t walked into that basement. Probably something stupid and less fun.

    #69 59 days ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Some very solid EMs that bring in lots of new people only willing to spend a quarter at the start.
    Plenty of awesome early SS and through sys 11 games. If you dont have out things that are classics from ever era then you are missing great opportunities IMHO. Look at our game list > we route classics like EBD, Frontier, BoP, Jackbot, Atlantis, HS, Sorcerer, etc...; we route oddballs like SST, TMNT
    Toss on the classics like TAF, TZ, Creech, and on down the line. I could easily fill a route of hundreds of games and not buy another single 5k+ Stern. The maintainence on those old games is no more than a new one and the new ones often cost 2x up front.
    You cold route primarily Sterns from the past 3 years and be fine, but man what a boring and repetitive line up IMHO.
    Point being that Stern is sadly NOT the reason pinball is thriving. I would say it is thriving despite their tired but solid formulaic foundation.
    *caveat that it is really nice to see them deviate with things like Beatles and BK3000. Now if they could just get pricing back to sub 5k where it should be (really 4500 is the sweet spot IMO).

    Our customers that are younger (5-18 years old) get started on licenses they know. If they start to like pinball then they migrate to other machines. Stern has definitely been the leader of bridging the Gap to our younger potential audience. I thank them for helping me grow this business, to me they are helping groom a next generation of player. Same with Raw Thrills. The licenses like Halo, Jurassic Park etc get people in the door and give an opportunity for other games to be discovered.

    I also like variety and our base customer that loves pins certainly appreciate exactly what you are saying. Most locations we have with a significant amount of machines have games from all eras.

    Either way this thread has showed me that so many people are doing their part to keep location Pinball alive. It makes me think the coin op side is in better hands than I originally thought. Good luck all!

    #70 59 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Great idea!
    Undisputed Market leaders who already have the cheapest games in the market by far usually slash their prices by 20 percent for no good reason. Profits and staying in business aren’t really why they exist.
    The only time in history a manufacturer slashed prices and used that as a promotional point (and stripped their games down to achieve this, which stern OBVIOUSLY would have to do), the endeavor was a dismal failure. Look up “Gottlieb street line” for more information.

    JJP too. Remember the seminar at TPF 2011 where WoZ was announced. At the end, Jack said he started the company not to make money, but "for the love of pinball" which was like throwing herrings to seals as the room erupted with a standing ovation......

    #71 59 days ago
    Quoted from YZRider926:

    I was watching my favorite sports team on the video box and the magic magician that speaks about my favorite team like he’s also watching said pinball. So I looked it up and was like neato torpedo. Now here I am.

    Neato torpedo

    #72 59 days ago
    Quoted from cottonm4:

    Add:
    Visual Pinball
    Craigslist
    Alltek circuit boards

    You also need to add all the great people who made the guides and online support
    To help us fix these games.

    #73 59 days ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    . Look at our game list > we route classics like EBD, Frontier, BoP, Jackbot, Atlantis, HS, Sorcerer, etc...; we route oddballs like SST, TMNT
    Toss on the classics like TAF, TZ, Creech, and on down the line. I could easily fill a route of hundreds of games and not buy another single 5k+ Stern.

    Game list
    IO Bar: out of 12 games, 7 are Sterns (why is Beatles listed as BumbleBear Games?)
    Pooley’s: out of 4 games, 2 are Sterns
    Maria’s: out of 11 games, 5 are Sterns, 1 Data East
    Alt Brew: out of 7 games, 2 are Sterns, 1 Sega
    Schwoeglers’s: out of 13 games, 3 are Sterns

    Holy Crap, you own 19 Stern titles. You might actually have more than me.

    Challenge is to remove all the Sterns and see what happens. I’d actually be interested to see the results. I think you might be okay

    79A06E26-945A-4294-8BD2-DA61DCE599BE (resized).png
    #74 59 days ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    Game list
    IO Bar: out of 12 games, 7 are Sterns (why is Beatles listed as BumbleBear Games?)
    Pooley’s: out of 4 games, 2 are Sterns
    Maria’s: out of 11 games, 5 are Sterns, 1 Data East
    Alt Brew: out of 7 games, 2 are Sterns, 1 Sega
    Schwoeglers’s: out of 13 games, 3 are Sterns
    Holy Crap, you own 19 Stern titles. You might actually have more than me.
    Challenge is to remove all the Sterns and see what happens. I’d actually be interested to see the results. I think you might be okay [quoted image]

    trust me, we would be just fine

    We do this as a hobby and have put every single quarter back in to the hobby for over 5 years now.

    Many MANY sterns have major issues and the cost to maintain is often much higher than any other game. Since this is a hobby, the time suck is a big part of the equation. The point I was making is that IME (5 years and over 90 games cycled through in those 5 years) route pinball would be just fine without Stern. In conjunction anyone doing this for business is likely calculating cost of game, coin drop, time to maintain, and resale value when computing what games are worth putting out.

    With that list of 47 games, it is likely worth asking why you think we have ONLY 19 sterns...

    Of that, look closer at how many are recent Sterns (5k+) and note how we have and continue to buy games made by other manufactures and many are outlasting Sterns that cost more...

    People like to say Stern saved pinball. IME, that is complete BS. Stern is in this for the business and they have shown that time and time again. Individual people of course have passion and it is commendable, but Stern is a small part of 'why' pinball is strong again.

    #75 59 days ago

    I'm not sure if this is a true, false or just the rare positive pinside post.

    The games are multiplying in my basement for sure.

    #76 59 days ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I help maintain 51 games on route for the past 5 years. Pinball would be just fine without Stern. In fact their games (post 5k+ pricing) are rarely the best or even good business choice for operation.

    i know you're trying your best, but you just aren't going to be crowned "biggest nut-job" in this particular thread. so please just step aside this time, and let the OP have his day. there's always the next one.

    #77 59 days ago

    You know some people like to say that pinball saved pinball, but that’s complete BS!!!

    Pinball would have survived WITHOUT pinball! It’s all the dedicated hobbyists who would have kept pinball going even if pinball didn’t exist and there were no pinball machines!! The 13 years where Stern was the only company that bothered building pinball machines and keeping games in front of the public had literally ‘nothing’ to do with it!!!

    Wise up people!

    #78 59 days ago

    If your modern Sterns are giving you as much maintenance as older games, then you're getting unlucky with your NIBs.

    30 year old games have problems that my modern machines don't: transistors going bad, connectors going bad, wires coming loose.

    EMs have been rock solid for me on location, but SS and 90s DMDs have given me way more problems than modern Sterns (although I stick to Pros, if that matters).

    #79 58 days ago

    There's a lesson in all of this.... I think.

    #80 58 days ago

    I would say Pinside has been very highly influential.....the game catalog and all of the reviews were important for me learning about the hobby and the games that were out there.

    #81 58 days ago
    Quoted from JMcDonald:

    Such a silly claim. Wait for the next recession coming any time now and then watch the carnage. Only Stern will survive and possibly one boutique.

    There won't be carnage due to recessions. Collectibles & entertainment are kind-of immune to recessions. Sure there will be a dip in prices, but don't plan on scooping up pins for late 1990s prices during the next recession if JJ or Stern or a boutique company has to close its doors. That will not happen. You won't be getting NIB pins at fire sale prices .

    I have no idea why people think one is right around the corner here in the States, but that's a whole other discussion, and one that I won't have on Pinside .

    #82 58 days ago
    Quoted from Pinless:

    Why is everyone feeding the troll with these long responses?
    [quoted image]

    Is Tim manic-depressive?

    #83 58 days ago
    Quoted from Pinballs:

    Is Tim manic-depressive?

    He is a "unique personality".

    #84 58 days ago
    Quoted from timarnold:

    Here at the Pinball Hall of Fame tourists are flooding over the Canadian border with pockets full of their worthless iron quarters and asking "Is it always this hot?'

    WTF ? every year I go in Vegas I stop at the pinball hall of fame. I have a lot of money on me and not worthless canadian quarters. What kind of comment is that ?

    #85 58 days ago

    I like pinball.

    #86 58 days ago

    Because playing pinball is fun and kicks ass. I’m over frickin video games, have too many other hobbies to even think about picking up a game controller and I think a lot of the middle aged guys like myself are in the same boat. Arcade games and foosball were huge in the 80, now it’s time to play pinball since I didn’t take advantage back in the day. It’s still fresh and new to me since buying my first machine back in 2012.

    #87 58 days ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    30 year old games have problems that my modern machines don't: transistors going bad, connectors going bad, wires coming loose.

    Those are fairly simple things to repair, though. And simply some of the things that happen with a game as it ages. Modern stern games will probably have some of the same problems when they reach the same age, in addition to a whole slew of stern/spike-specific problems.

    #88 58 days ago
    Quoted from Darth_Chris:

    What kind of comment is that ?

    That's an I don't give a shit comment.

    #89 58 days ago
    Quoted from Azmodeus:

    I think we are in the golden age of pinball.
    Blink and you might miss some of it. (On a tread mill, but that is the gist of it for me.)
    The golden age!

    Golden age was 1992-1994. Addams Family sold over 20k machine and TZ at 15k sold. Hope to see those numbers again.

    #90 58 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Pinball was a route operation at the time.. and the arcades were on the upswing. So I disagree with your statement that they died and just took time to stop flopping around. Peak of sales with TAF and TZ had a lot to do with the specific titles, not just the industry trend.
    It's why Alvin G was able to start in 91. Why Sega still bought in as late as 1994 and capcom even later. Arcades were still seeing their second big surge on the backs of SFII, etc. If it was already dead in 1993... none of those people would have bought in AFTERWARDS.
    The consoles were the big blow.. the seed was set with the SNES/Genesis generation... but they hit high gear with the PSX in 1994. From that point on, the home consoles would be kings and the arcades retreating. That also coincides with the steep drop off of WMS production that really took a hit starting in 1995. Warcraft and RTS got big too right around 1995 with games like Command n Conquer.
    I'd pin the knockout punch in 1995.. and it stumbled through on intertia through 96 and into 97 until the operators themselves just couldn't buy the games to float WMS. The 2nd tier producers had all already given up because they didn't have the sales interia and distribution WMS had so they collapsed quicker.
    By 1996, the FPS craze had heated up on PC gaming.. we got quake, and in 98 we got half-life. The one-two blow of 64bit gaming, and the rise of FPS and RTS on PC were the end of the neighborhood arcades.

    Agree on the home console. I remember BlitzFootball from Midway games entering the arcades and what then seemed like 2 months later it lands in the home market. Not enough time to make money back on investment. Kids can buy for $60 and play all they want at home.

    #91 58 days ago

    I think pinball almost died in 1984, hardly any games made that year. I credit Barry Oursler for designing Space Shuttle that year, for saving pinball as we know it.

    #92 58 days ago

    I have been watching an evolving strategy in pinball - the emergence of Pay One Price/Free Play as a business model. Seattle Pinball Museum, Game Preserve Houston, Pinball Co-op in Burlington Vt, Tilt Arcade Bar in Toronto etc. Although it's usually mixed with classic arcade video games, I think it will be interesting to see what effect these ventures have on the biz.

    I think offering players a collection of machines as a curated experience to be sampled based on playing enjoyment is a different proposition from the traditional "How long can I play for $xx" one. And one that might bring in a lot of newer players to more difficult machines based on that experience (once it doesn't matter how difficult it may be to learn the machine).

    #93 58 days ago
    Quoted from Onwallst:

    Golden age was 1992-1994. Addams Family sold over 20k machine and TZ at 15k sold. Hope to see those numbers again.

    That was that other age. Just wait until you see some numbers in the future. My opinion.
    I'm not saying those are not great games or great times.

    Just that that these are and will be better. It is not just sales. The hobby is feeling almost perfect to be a part of.

    That is my niche. The experience. I love it. Like heaven on earth.

    When I get a house ball it is more like hell.

    #94 58 days ago

    This morning I play this loud to drive the point home.

    Back for more. Ratt.

    Not a bad song.

    #95 58 days ago
    Quoted from textaddict:

    I have been watching an evolving strategy in pinball - the emergence of Pay One Price/Free Play as a business model.

    Also done to avoid individual machine license fees.

    #96 58 days ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    Also done to avoid individual machine license fees.

    In some counties, after a certain number of games, it basically turns into flat fee rather than per game fee.

    #97 58 days ago
    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    In some counties, after a certain number of games, it basically turns into flat fee rather than per game fee.

    Where the laws make sense... but in many places they still do not

    Location pinball literally is impossible in many areas simply due to antiquated anti-arcade laws stemming from the 80s.. or licensing laws aimed at a time when revenues were completely different.

    Personally I think all the 'all you can eat' pricing kills it except for people discovering the place or who are casuals. The classics (especially the video games) just don't feel the same when you can just credit up endlessly.

    #98 58 days ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    The classics (especially the video games) just don't feel the same when you can just credit up endlessly.

    Risk/reward only works if there’s a risk.

    Though, there are a lot of games that I would never even try if I had to drop a quarter in them.

    #99 58 days ago
    Quoted from cletus:

    Risk/reward only works if there’s a risk.
    Though, there are a lot of games that I would never even try if I had to drop a quarter in them.

    I'd still play Darling/Jubilee at 2/25¢ play (It's the Profit Way)

    #100 58 days ago
    Quoted from TRC73:

    There's a lesson in all of this.... I think.

    Yeah, don't listen to anything that quack Tim says...

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