Because they can make more money by keeping them all the same same but different but still same.

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This has been discussed ad-nauseum here.

All that does is save you the cost of the cabinet (which is a minor part of the cost to develop/design/build a machine). And drives up the cost of everything else in the machine. And puts a bunch of extra limitations on what you can do and still be "compatible" with previous machines.

And then, you've bought 1 "full" machine, and a couple of more "half" machines to interchange with them. But you've only got one machine at a time that can be earning (or played) - while you've got to maintain storage for the parts that are not currently installed.

Seems like a lose-lose situation to me. The P3 system has not exactly set the world on fire. And Williams tried it with Pin2000 and it failed miserably.

This sums it up pretty nicely. In theory it sounds like such a great concept but in reality maybe not so much. Would like to hear from those that have a revenge from mars/star wars combo and how often they swap.

Also, why change what's been working so well? Stern et al aren't suffering.

Why not? Because it's a bad idea that nobody wants*

It's been tried many times and it never catches on because it's a stupid idea, and stupider than ever now that the majority of games are being sold to home buyers.

Home buyers don't want them. Storing extra populated playfields in boxes takes up almost as much room as a game itself. Nobody wants a game room full of boxed playfields and one functioning game. Nobody wants to spends time swapping out playfields when they are drinking with their buddies. Nobody wants to say "hey check out my cool game room!" only to show off a room to their buddies with one generic cabinet and a ton of musty playfields in boxes.

Ops don't want them. Ops need equipment that earns, not a bunch of playfields in storage. Ops need attractive equipment to lure in dollars, not generic cabinets.

Both ops and home buyers have been given NUMEROUS chances over the past 45 years to latch on to the brilliantly innovative idea of "swappable playfields." Conversion kits. Pin2k. Doctor Who and Congo in the 90s...the "playfield swap" idea has ALWAYS failed and it will always fail yet this failed concept is always a rock star in every "innovation" thread.

*Also...playfields ARE swappable. You think Stern or any other company completely changes their hardware and production system for every single game? Just buy a bunch of populated Spike 2 playfields and get a Spike 2 game and swap to your hearts content. Boom!

CrazyLevi has spoken , no further comments are needed , this can now be posted as resolved and locked !

Pin2000 was a success as far as sales go according to Roger Sharpe and the available production numbers.
Champion Pub 1369 units
Monster Bash - 3361
Revenge From Mars - 6878
Star Wars Episode I - 3525
(source- IPDB)

The idea of swappable playfields sounds great until my back starts twitching.

The ability to swap PFs is the actual problem with having a swappable PF machine

You can fit two boxes with populated playfields under a P3 cabinet.

Ops sell off their 'old' equipment anyway. It doesn't much matter whether you sell an entire game or an old playfield. The biggest drawback in my mind is it locks you into that ecosystem and at this point that's not practical for an Operator.

Recall too that video games were not swappable until the JAMMA standard was widely adopted. Operators were happy to buy conversion kits instead of whole new games.

The artwork is also swapable.

Are repeated playfield swaps even doable for pinball given how many fragile pieces are present on a relatively heavy board? It just seems like stuff would inevitably get broken during swaps leading to frustrated customers.

Yes.

I meant on an actual physical pinball machine of course, I wonder if the typical buyer could do repeated swaps without breaking something.

In pinball, mo connectors = mo problems.

I really think it’s moot anyway. If “swappable playfields” were something people wanted, they’d exist. The market has spoken on this, decade after decade.

the problem with pinball connectors is they use the cheapest connectors they can buy when they are manufactured .......If they spent a little extra money we would have less then half the problems we have now .....I have worked with all sorts of connectors in my life in the avionics and commercial equipment field and I can tell you that there are far better and more reliable connectors out there.
We would be a whole lot better off if pinball just stuck with the old jones connectors those things are damn near bullet proof and many are still working after 50 years

Like I tell most people with business ideas who don’t have money - do the marketing analytics, write a business plan, raise capital, take the risks, and bring your idea to market by betting on yourself instead of telling others how to run their business or spend their money.

Ever watch Shark Tank? One of their top reasons for not funding a venture is when the person with the idea hasn't put their own money and full dedication into the product.

Like the man said, I don't want it. Just too much work for me anyway. Even if you make it perfectly swappable, I'll still need storage space, extra parts, tools, some kind of workshop and the ability to put things together. Then, where's that instant feeling of pressing the 'start' button to play games right away? "Sorry babe, you can't play Mando, I've swapped the pf for GOT, maybe next week if I have the time?"

Nah, not interested!

Pretty much hit the nail on the head. It’s not like old arcade games that simply required a board set swap and maybe joy sticks.

Why not....add kitted games to the subject line?

Sorry, couldn't resist

Is there a story to this I'm not aware of? Did they try to do conversions/swappable playfields with these 2 games in particular?

So how many people have done a Full Throttle/Alien swap? I'd imagine zero.

Well, I do.

Is that actually possible to buy a populated playfield from Stern? What would it cost? Maybe it’s time for me to get a Stern game. I don’t really care about cabinet art or the backglass so if that’s a viable option…

Virtual Pin cabinets seem to bridge the gap here. One cab, thousand pins.

Yup - did that.

However, upon further reflection, the incentive from Stern to allow people to swap playfields would be minimal, unless they sold a pf for about $250 less than a whole game. I agree that most of the “new” is in the playfield and I assume I get the code for free from the homepage and the cabinet art is already done. And customers making mistakes while swapping playfields would be a nightmare.

Still not convinced, though, that there’s no market for it.

I like the idea. I'm also waiting for my P3 to arrive. I think Multimorphic has created the best potential for this idea because it's not a full siz playfield that's being swapped.

I don't see Stern ever doing it because they would probably lose the markup on all of the other parts they sell you (cabinet, legs, etc..). Multimorphic has a different business model that makes them unique. Stern is currently king of the pinball world and doesn't really need to be unique at this moment.

it could be done but I don't think any current manufacturer is there yet. All of the mechanisms ,pop bumpers, flippers , slingshots etc would have to be made much smaller without losing power. The design has to evolve away from 1950's technology using full size coils. If the whole thing was a playfield with glass in a 3" to 4" depth box where all you had to do was slide it in the cab hook up a power cord and connect the back box display and make it so easy that a chimpanzee could do it, it might fly. IMO the back box artwork being displayed on 2 monitors one for the dmd and the other for the artwork does not detract from the actual play. I don't see anyone taking the risk to make something like this with the current world money problems especially since pinball is a niche market . As niche markets go, all you have to do is look at what happened to Peloton

Take things in context my friend. Already multiple posts stating why it's not a good idea, how/when manufacturers have failed in the past with the idea, how the market hasn't wanted it so it hasn't happened, etc. Not really much fun, as you put it, discussing an idea that already has been put to bed for all practical purposes. If someone thinks it is such a great idea and they can make it work where others have failed and there is no apparent demand, then it's up to them to make it happen rather than opining about how someone else should do it.

As a side note, P3 has had some success with a pseudo-swappable playfield but that is not what was being proposed here.

personally I would not buy one, but with how modern Sterns use less cables than they used to, I guess it is more possible to do

I just buy a different game, you cheapskates! This is a terrible idea as stated above. Man up and buy games you walk up to and hit the start button and play. If it doesn't work for you maybe take up RC planes or something else you can afford.

I think this is a good discussion for anyone that already owns a pinball 2000. If Stern or some other manufacturer was to create a playfield that was compatible with your existing pinball 2000 cabinet, would you not buy it?

If I could get a reasonably priced brand new game that was remotely close to as good as RFM, I would be all over it.

It's not just money. For a lot of us, it's about space. With a well designed rack, I feels like I could get 4/5 pinball 2000 playfields in a closet. I personally hate selling games because of the people that you sometimes have to deal with and the amount of money involved. The biggest reason that I've sold games is space.

Have you never heard of "Heighway Pinball"?

The swapable playfield idea didn't work out so well for them..........

Ok…I am gonna make this real clear why it’s not gonna happen right now. Sometimes if it ain’t broke don’t fix it does apply and right now manufactures can’t meet demand quick enough. They couldn’t build populated playfields as a stand alone product if they wanted to.

Quick review…conversion kits made sense for operators of arcade games back in the day as they serviced the games and accepted risk of installing components. Usually minimal work for installation and could be done by ONE person….board, control panel, artwork. Simple for most operators. Also know this was tried with pins but only a very few conversion kits were ever made….a little more complex swapping an entire populated playfield and may require a second person to assist. Populated playfields are heavy. Add a new backglass and done right….not so fast. Most cabinets are painted game specific so now cabinet art does not match….operators could leave as is or repaint or decal the cabinet…the time involved would cost them more money so not really a good idea for operators.

Toady we have the home collector and the issues most run into are space and cost. Yes a drop in playfield could allow someone who didn’t mind changing playfields a few more games. I doubt with today’s prices it would save significant money as a new cabinet can be bought or built for under $1K. Operators have no interest in this as they do not want to be left with parts…they can recoup more money by selling a routed game.
The average homeowner probably is not familiar enough to swap a playfield…..most would need help and a high potential to damage something. Manufacturers have enough headaches and do not want/need additional liability to deal with. Also one of the things people love about pins is the cabinet artwork. The existing artwork doesn’t match the newly installed playfield. Do you really want generic cabinets and cabinet artwork to go away? Let’s be honest about this….it ain’t like putting a disc in a Blu-ray player and it sure as hell is not as convenient as swapping Nintendo cartridges.

Way too many cons VS pros for this. Until the pros outweigh the cons it’s not a viable scenario for the manufacturers to pursue. Doesn’t mean it should be forgotten but manufacturers would have to decide the long term development cost is worth it to pursue and it really isn’t there as it stands today.

Now….this would be a GREAT opportunity for a 3rd party to develop swappable games for existing cabinets….they could pay licensing to use Stern/JJP MPU or supply a new MPU and only use existing power supply. It could be done but it would not be cheap…keep in mind people have gotten comfortable with licensed themes…an unlicensed theme could be cheaper but how popular would it be for people to by? And the market for this would be EXTREMELY small. It would probably be a money losing venture.

When this can be as simple as changing a Nintendo cartridge this could be a great idea but until then it’s a pipe dream.

Buy the way….this exists. Just get a virtual pin and call it done LOL! Solves your space issue and changing games is as easy as swapping a game cartridge. We all agree it’s not the same but it solves the problems of space and is cheaper than buying all the individual games.

Secondly the other way to solve this problem is it sounds like if you can afford all these games you can afford to get a bigger house with more space or build a game room addition. Not an answer For everyone but many people have done it.

Let’s forget about swapping playfields for a minute and talk about all of the other cool stuff about Pinball 2000 that none of the other manufacturers have adopted. For instance, why has no one used full length rails like RFM and SWE1? Shop jobs are so much easier being able to pull the playfield and set it in a table or bench to work on. Why doesn’t anyone use the ball stop flap like P2K that keeps the balls from falling out of the trough when raising the playfield? Another cool feature on P2k is the auxiliary key that pops the lock down bar to remove the glass for a stuck ball without having to open the coin door. P2K had a lot of great ideas that could be incorporated into modern games and I’d love to see some of it get used by other manufacturers. Surely the patents have expired at this point. I almost forgot, the diagnostics on P2K is pretty trick also. The game can tell you exactly which switches and lamps aren’t working and shows you where they are located on the playfield.

why is specific cabinet artwork necessary? It's not really, and if you have a monitor for a backglass you can make it anything you want....Backglass and translites are overrated.

Because all of these things add cost, while increasing sales exactly zero percent. Thus, these companies - which exist to make profits - would be hurt by implementing these things.

(also I think JJP has "the flap" but I digress)

People need to stop asking "Why not?," and start asking "why?"

Why add a bunch of cost to a game to include some "cool" features on a product that went out of business over 20 years ago (pin2k), and will not help increase profits. Why is this a good idea?

Why spend a bunch of money making playfield swaps easier, when it's been proven time and time and time again that there is not much of a market for this product for either ops or home buyers? Why mess with the formula when you are currently selling games much faster than you can produce them, and there's zero evidence that you need to market "swappable playfields" to sell pinball machines?

Why? If you can't come up with compelling reasons "why", it's probably not a good idea.

It's really important to people for some reason. People literally buy diff'fent versions of games becasue of the cabinet art. Weird I know.

If you're looking to switch up tables; just play VPX/VPW not exactly the same but really close!!

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This! I know a Stern employee who keeps a generic Spike 2 cabinet at home and just swaps in whichever playfield is in development.

I think there are home owners who would put up with swapping playfields as a way to get more bang for their buck; however, they likely underestimating how much they'd be saving with a swappable playfield.

The cabinet cost and associated hardware is like $1,000-$1,500. A playfield to swap in, with all the assemblies and software to make it fun, is still going to be at least $5,000. And I don't think that's an attractive price point for all the downsides to dealing with swappable playfields.

Zero chance I'm ever doing that. Don't want my basement to look even more like a hoarder house, and I play with one foot extended under a game. Hate it when people store stuff there.

Also P3 games are no fun but that's neither here nor there.

I have a Vpin and like it quite a bit, its not bad but it's not the same as a real pin.... but l do think you could take elements of the Vpin like the backglass monitor and dmd monitor and incorperate them into a hybrid unit

What would Disney and other license holders' reaction to this be? There is no way they would allow an easy process to mismatch art packages, just like the pushback on changing out music packages.

So would buyers accept generic cabinets? Why would a licensee sign if they can't guarantee their assets aren't cohesive and well presented? How does the manufacturer earn back their licensing costs if they are creating some dedicated and some generic packages.

Way too many considerations when the current market is screaming for more capacity which requires more streamlined processes.

My personal experience includes swapping System 1 playfields in and out of a Joker Poker cabinet that had a multi-game aftermarket board. It was neat to start with but the extra pfs were a PITA after the novelty wore off.