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(Topic ID: 117447)

Why no Williams System 10?

By goingincirclez

9 years ago


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    #1 9 years ago
    OP
     
    GIC

    goingincirclez

    GIC Pinball

    9y 116K 2,835 27

    Since entering the hobby a few months ago and restoring my Space Shuttle, I've been intrigued reading and learning about the history and evolution of Williams' various solid state platforms. The naming convention was pretty logical as the systems evolved, from the proto-experimental Systems 1&2, to the well known Systems 3-7, (8 used for non-pins), System 9 and... wait... the very similar System 11 into WMS and P2K...

    So what happened to System 10? Even the manuals for Space Shuttle - written at the beginning of the System 9 era - mention the "forthcoming System 11" as a compatible service option. Was there some internal strife (perhaps due to the gaming industry crash) that killed a nascent System 10 - forcing the available 9 to be tweaked and renamed? Was 10 going to be a revolutionary platform (like Pin2K) whose development was abandoned? Or was the leapfrog simply as mundane as avoiding typeface confusion of "System 10" for "System IO (input/output)"?

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    #2 9 years ago
     
    LAW

    dung

    Pinside member

    12y 86,050 5,578 6 30

    Keep in mind there could also be legal reasons. The Porsche 911 was supposed to be the 901 but Peugeot had it trademarked.

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    #3 9 years ago
     
    JAZ

    Jazman

    Pinside+ Frequent

    US Waukesha, WI

    14y 70,550 1,400 14

    Because everything is better when it goes to eleven...

    Jaz

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    #4 9 years ago
     
    NAD

    MonkeyGrass

    Inactive member

    US Charlotte, NC

    10y 25,900 153 3 6

    If I had to guess, System 10 was a failed project fork by the game devs.

    Happens quite a bit in tech development. You get so far down a certain path, realize that what you were trying to achieve is not going to work (dead end), write off the project and start over with a new Version #. Mostly, to avoid any confusion between plans or stored files that were already labeled "Sys10" getting mixed in with the new Sys11 development.

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    #5 9 years ago
     
    SCC

    mrgone

    Pinside member

    US Casper, WY

    12y 119K 5,181 4 54

    Quoted from Jazman:

    Because everything is better when it goes to eleven...

    Jaz

    Oh, you beat me to it.

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    #6 9 years ago
    OP
     
    GIC

    goingincirclez

    GIC Pinball

    9y 116K 2,835 27

    Pfft, well then forget 11 because 12 is even higher still!

    See, I get how the forking process works and considered that... but it still seems like there's something more to it in this case. All the previous Systems were fairly predictable evolutionary baby steps: better packaging here, improve feature set there, use newer components here, etc. Accepting that 8 was used for just a few games during the crash, we know System 9 is not terribly_ different from 7 (8)... and Williams even said that 11 was the next baby step up from 9 almost as soon as 9 was in production.

    So it seems 10 was already given the boot even before 9 made it out. So if it was a fork, I wonder just what had been planned or accomplished before they hit that kind of wall, and why they even attempted such a deviant leap in the first place?

    With all the prototypes and engineering samples that have been known and discovered and documented, even out in the field, has nothing about a "System 10" ever turned up?

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    #7 9 years ago
     
    ---

    ForceFlow

    Pinside Moderator

    9y 238K 31,334 268 14

    What about Gottlieb jumping from System 1 to System 80/80A/80B, then to System 3? That never made much sense to me

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    #8 9 years ago
     
    KLB

    kbliznick

    Firebird Pinball

    US Phoenix, AZ

    11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    What about Gottlieb jumping from System 1 to System 80/80A/80B, then to System 3? That never made much sense to me

    System 1980?? maybe

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    #9 9 years ago
     
    ---

    ForceFlow

    Pinside Moderator

    9y 238K 31,334 268 14

    Quoted from kbliznick:

    System 1980?? maybe

    Huh, that didn't occur to me. It sure would make sense, though

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    #10 9 years ago
     
    JOE

    calvin12

    Frozen

    Unknown

    13y 0k 2,972 10

    Quoted from kbliznick:

    System 1980?? maybe

    then why for to 3 after that and not 88 or what ever year sys3 debuted, is the point.

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    #11 9 years ago
     
    ---

    ForceFlow

    Pinside Moderator

    9y 238K 31,334 268 14

    Quoted from calvin12:

    then why for to 3 after that and not 88 or what ever year sys3 debuted, is the point.

    Maybe they jumped back to the original numbering scheme with each system receiving a sequential number instead of using the year as the system number.

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    #12 9 years ago
     
    HAN

    HHaase

    Siegecraft

    14y 89,550 3,097 4 12

    Was it system 8 or 10 that was used in non-pinball games? I know one of them was used in some pitch and bat and/or shuffle alley type games.

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    #13 9 years ago
     
    BAR

    iwantansi

    Pinside member

    10y 63,550 1,831

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    What about Gottlieb jumping from System 1 to System 80/80A/80B, then to System 3? That never made much sense to me

    Hulk prototype according to IPDB

    "The prototype Driver Board pictured has a sticker in the upper right corner with "SYS II" hand written on it"

    http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=5350&picno=39934

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    #14 9 years ago
     
    GIR

    girloveswaffles

    Pinside member

    US Norwalk, CA

    11y 116K 8,133

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    What about Gottlieb jumping from System 1 to System 80/80A/80B, then to System 3? That never made much sense to me

    Or X-Box 360 to X-Box One ...

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    #15 9 years ago
     
    GIR

    girloveswaffles

    Pinside member

    US Norwalk, CA

    11y 116K 8,133

    Quoted from HHaase:

    Was it system 8 or 10 that was used in non-pinball games? I know one of them was used in some pitch and bat and/or shuffle alley type games.

    System 8 was used in Pennant Fever. It was kind of a scaled down system Seven.

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    #16 9 years ago
    OP
     
    GIC

    goingincirclez

    GIC Pinball

    9y 116K 2,835 27

    Quoted from ForceFlow:

    Maybe they jumped back to the original numbering scheme with each system receiving a sequential number instead of using the year as the system number.

    Yeah, kinda like how Microsoft di.... oh wait, nevermind...

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    #17 9 years ago
     
    ---

    ForceFlow

    Pinside Moderator

    9y 238K 31,334 268 14

    Quoted from girloveswaffles:

    Or X-Box 360 to X-Box One ...

    Those were more branding choices than anything else. There's no real reason to market or brand pinball systems to the general public, so there's no real reason to get fancy with the naming. Stern is pretty much the only odd duck where they actually applied naming to their later systems.

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    #18 9 years ago
     
    SCW

    PinballOrphanage

    The Pinball Orphanage

    US Manitowoc, WI

    10y 48,900 315 26

    Ever see a 1983 Corvette? They don't existing either!

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    #19 9 years ago
     
    AMS

    barakandl

    nvram.weebly.com

    12y 132K 10,414

    Rambo is my favorite! it goes...

    First Blood
    Rambo: First Blood II
    Rambo 3
    then finally... just Rambo

    http://cinemassacre.com/2006/12/07/chronologically-confused-about-bad-movie-and-video-game-sequel-titles/

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    #20 9 years ago
     
    KLB

    kbliznick

    Firebird Pinball

    US Phoenix, AZ

    11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

    System10 was for an aborted pneumatic airball game.

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    #21 9 years ago
     
    KLB

    kbliznick

    Firebird Pinball

    US Phoenix, AZ

    11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

    Quoted from girloveswaffles:

    System 8 was used in Pennant Fever. It was kind of a scaled down system Seven.

    Scaled down system 9, had driver board and CPU board combined into one.

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    #22 9 years ago
     
    ACE

    GamesGuy5280

    Pinside member

    11y 41,800 157

    System 10 is reserved by Microsoft for Windows 10

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    #23 9 years ago
     
    LEM

    5280wzrd

    PinBowl Alley

    US Limon, CO

    11y 63,550 611 21 32

    Quoted from PinballOrphanage:

    Ever see a 1983 Corvette? They don't existing either!

    Actually they made about forty of them, never made it to market due to quality issues. Only one still around at the corvette museum in Kentucky.

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    #24 9 years ago
     
    PWO

    64bsstp

    Pinside+ Frequent

    US Grand Rapids, MI

    11y 50,300 241 16

    I worked for a company that skipped any model number with a "5" in it due to a couple flops with a "5" in the model designation early in the company's history.

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    #25 9 years ago
     
    KLB

    kbliznick

    Firebird Pinball

    US Phoenix, AZ

    11y 63,900 2,438 5 4

    From Clay's guides

    System 10
    Direct Hit, a "mechanical video game". Player tried to keep a ball suspended in a tube by manipulating air pressure on it. Game never produced beyond prototype stage.

    http://www.backglass.org/williams/direct_hit_cab.jpg

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    #26 9 years ago
     
    LEV

    CrazyLevi

    Crazy Levi's Pinball

    US New York, NY

    10y 148K 33,527

    Quoted from Jazman:

    Because everything is better when it goes to eleven...

    Jaz

    Goddamn...I knew when I saw this thread there was no way I was gonna be first to that joke. But post #3?!

    Bastard.

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    #27 9 years ago
     
    LAW

    dung

    Pinside member

    12y 86,050 5,578 6 30

    Quoted from kbliznick:

    From Clay's guides
    System 10
    Direct Hit, a "mechanical video game". Player tried to keep a ball suspended in a tube by manipulating air pressure on it. Game never produced beyond prototype stage.
    http://www.backglass.org/williams/direct_hit_cab.jpg

    Game over man! Game over!

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    #28 9 years ago
    OP
     
    GIC

    goingincirclez

    GIC Pinball

    9y 116K 2,835 27

    Quoted from kbliznick:

    From Clay's guides

    System 10

    Is "Clay's Guide" the pinrepair.com site? I keep getting confused by all the "Clay's Guide" references people mention as some sort of gospel. Seems like that's the same guy and I've looked at that site and there's a lot of info, but he doesn't detail Williams SS specifically much that I found... nor in other cases I've seen people mention "Clay's Guides"... so am I looking in the right place?

    But thank you for that info! That game seems simplistic to the point where an evolved pin system would have been overkill. Seems like I've played something similar in concept to that, somewhere. Or maybe that was just goofing with compressed air and shop junk

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    #29 9 years ago
     
    JM

    j_m_

    Pinside+ Frequent

    11y 124K 7,588

    OP
    Quoted from goingincirclez:

    Is "Clay's Guide" the pinrepair.com site?

    yes.

    clay is clay harrell, who resides in the ann arbor, mi area and is the proprietor of the VFW (vintage flipper world) museum
    http://vfwpinball.com/

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    #30 9 years ago
     
    MAT

    snyper2099

    Cincinnati Pinball

    16y 103K 7,645

    here's a Williams System 10 MPU for those that wondered if any ever survived the production/testing phase...

    williams_system10_MPU.jpgwilliams_system10_MPU.jpg

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