(Topic ID: 117149)

Why no love for wooly?


By mrgone

4 years ago



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  • Latest reply 4 years ago by rotordave
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#51 4 years ago

Love the theme, layout and rules look great, artwork well done.

Just refuse to pre-order any more. Build it and they will come - need a more "standard" business model in pinball. Take the product to a bank/investor, if it's good, they will work out sales price, and go from there.

#52 4 years ago

I'm staggered people are saying 8k is pricey. Isn't that just where we are now? On par with TBL and a stern Le? Don't think its an accurate comparison to be citing stern pros.

Spooky 6k is pretty impressive and I be.ieve the best way for wooly to eventuate is for them to buy out/into riot. Alternatively pre sell to 5-10 distributors if that's at all possible.

#53 4 years ago
Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

I'm staggered people are saying 8k is pricey. Isn't that just where we are now? On par with TBL and a stern Le? Don't think its an accurate comparison to be citing stern pros.
Spooky 6k is pretty impressive and I be.ieve the best way for wooly to eventuate is for them to buy out/into riot. Alternatively pre sell to 5-10 distributors if that's at all possible.

8k means 11k to my door in Canadian dollars.

#54 4 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

I'm not sure why I'm even commenting, since I haven't paid more than $5k for a game, and haven't played WOOLY...
...but it's sad for pinball that an LCD would be enough to change minds on WOOLY. Really? This is because JPP released a game at that price point with an LCD? Are you planning to scrap your pinball games down the road and sell the LCD separately? It's probably a $100-$200 addition - a fancy screen that can't even look at while you're playing.
I agree that all machines probably will (and should) move in that direction, but making price demands based on them is silly. Remind me again - exactly how many games with LCDs have actually shipped? Stern adds a few cosmetic changes, 0 or 1 things that impact gameplay, slaps on a unique plaque and charges an extra $2k-$3k for an LE. And hundreds of people pay it. Oh, and then they'll finish the code 18 months later if enough people buy pros and they have the time to get around to it.
People are buying games for $8k, plain and simple. Maybe we "shouldn't be", but it's too late now (unless suddenly people start putting their money back in their pockets instead of bitching about prices and then buying anyway).
If you guys made your own boutique game in this market, what would you do - compete with Stern Pros on price? Hell no - you'd compete on the quality of gameplay, theme, artwork, and code. If boutique builders could come in and make a profit commensurate with the incredible risk involved at a lower price point - someone would be doing it. Until then, the only "low" prices we're going to see is from the only company with an assembly line mentality to churn out as many games as possible - at a price point which people also bitch about.

You miss understood my comment. At $8k I expect the game to have a LCD. A LCD is not a $200 upgrade. Its more like a $1500 upgrade. The programming and video artistry that goes along with it is were the real money is. Wooly at $6500 and I would seriously consider it.

#55 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

8k means 11k to my door in Canadian dollars.

Canadians and Australians don't count.

-1
#56 4 years ago

Cool theme but if they had kept it serious rather than making it funny I would have considered it. Also I like old Metallica but doesn't suit the theme at all and the jokes are bad, why are designers still trying to be funny and ruining otherwise good ideas, Met call outs and TWD call outs=Brutal. If there is humour naturally occurring with-in the theme then fine but the terrible attempts by Stern and some of the boutiques just doesn't work for me. JMO

#57 4 years ago
Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

I'm staggered people are saying 8k is pricey. Isn't that just where we are now? On par with TBL and a stern Le? Don't think its an accurate comparison to be citing stern pros.

I disagree with this attitude intensely. Customers should NOT be content to be railroaded into spending $8k just because that's "normal" now. Competition needs to work harder on bringing down prices while delivering a 'traditional' pinball experience (Spooky) or focus on delivering something wildly innovative that can justify a premium pricetag (multimorphic P3).

Just my 2 cents.

#58 4 years ago

8k is not the norm now. The majority of pins sold are stern pros and premiums, both well under that price and stern premiums are the full featured game. When you shop boutique it's going to be more expensive for the item your going to recieve, economies of scale in all facets of production and materials are the main reasons.

#59 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

Competition needs to work harder on bringing down prices while delivering a 'traditional' pinball experience (Spooky) or focus on delivering something wildly innovative that can justify a premium pricetag (multimorphic P3).

If this was a healthy industry, sure. The fact is, until recently there was no competition. I'm sure that's because people didn't think they could make any money at it / no market. With the bar being raised for "normal", more people can make the calculus work to try to make a game come together, and put food on their table (OMG profits are evil! ). I think we're a long ways away in this cycle before competition = lower prices... and when it does, expect there to just be Stern again (or zero manufacturers).

I guess my point is, you can't have the amount of pinball manufacturers (or aspiring manufacturers) there are today, at Stern Pro price point. And only one has done it at the Stern Premium price point (AMH); and that was unlicensed.

On topic: WOOLY has no interest to me as a theme; I just won't buy something I don't like the theme of.. I will play those games on location. Plus a couple of the WOOLY fans seem jerkish / putting down other pre-orders as the reason WOOLY didn't get enough... this isn't an either/or situation.

#60 4 years ago

Price is just too high for a product most have not physically seen.

#61 4 years ago
Quoted from dannunz:

You miss understood my comment. At $8k I expect the game to have a LCD. A LCD is not a $200 upgrade. Its more like a $1500 upgrade. The programming and video artistry that goes along with it is were the real money is. Wooly at $6500 and I would seriously consider it.

Okay, I understand - we just disagree on how much an LCD adds to our personal enjoyment of the pinball machine. I wouldn't pay 20% more for a car just because it has a touch screen in the console showing me extra information about the songs as they play.

#62 4 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

Okay, I understand - we just disagree on how much an LCD adds to our personal enjoyment of the pinball machine. I wouldn't pay 20% more for a car just because it has a touch screen in the console showing me extra information about the songs as they play.

Not a good comparison. It's like saying you wouldn't pay 20% more for a car with nav, sunroof, and different trim line. Lcd and video integration changes a pinball machine, for some its food others its not important but it is not the minor change your suggesting.

#63 4 years ago

It kinda looks like a late System 11 to early WPC game to me, art-wise. And the voice callouts are brutally bad.

Standing next to a TBL, WOOLY looks like amateur hour. That's just my opinion. I'm sorry that it diminishes all the hard work and effort they've gone into making the game, but if you want to charge premium prices, you need to provide a premium product.

#64 4 years ago

Hope to play one at MGC.

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#65 4 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

Okay, I understand - we just disagree on how much an LCD adds to our personal enjoyment of the pinball machine. I wouldn't pay 20% more for a car just because it has a touch screen in the console showing me extra information about the songs as they play.

And yet people do that all the time. Well not 20%, because you can't scale that over to a car, but thousands more. Personally I'd really miss iDrive if you took it out of my car.

It's kind of pointless to go off into the weeds about car systems though, it's really not related.

Either way, it doesn't really matter if you see the value. Or if I do. We're talking about the general market here. And it's pretty clear that the people have spoken, and the game is just too expensive as is.

Maybe they can make it happen still just from getting it in front of more people.

Maybe they can reduce the BOM and lower the price.

Maybe they keep the price but up things to a color display.

Wish them the best.

#66 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

If this was a healthy industry, sure. The fact is, until recently there was no competition. I'm sure that's because people didn't think they could make any money at it / no market. With the bar being raised for "normal", more people can make the calculus work to try to make a game come together, and put food on their table (OMG profits are evil! ). I think we're a long ways away in this cycle before competition = lower prices... and when it does, expect there to just be Stern again (or zero manufacturers).
I guess my point is, you can't have the amount of pinball manufacturers (or aspiring manufacturers) there are today, at Stern Pro price point. And only one has done it at the Stern Premium price point (AMH); and that was unlicensed.

I'm all for people making profits, and I actually have no problem with $8k machines in general as clearly the market can support them in some capacity. What I completely disagree with is the argument that "$8k is fair for WOOLY since that's what Stern/JJP/DP charge for their machines now".

IMO the price of a machine is fair when a customer decides it is, not when it's priced identically to a successful competitor. At $5-6k I (and many others) would have considered WOOLY; at $8k I didn't even consider it.

If they can't make profit at $5-6k and 100-200 machines, and they can't get enough buyers at $8k, then they don't make WOOLY. Tough, but simple

#67 4 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Not a good comparison. It's like saying you wouldn't pay 20% more for a car with nav, sunroof, and different trim line. Lcd and video integration changes a pinball machine, for some its food others its not important but it is not the minor change your suggesting.

I've played WOZ dozens of times and the only time I can bother to look up at the LCD is during the ball lock animation.

I was specifically responding to the post that said an LCD was a $1500 improvement. You threw in an LCD, new toys, and a different art package in your analogy. (Which I agree, is the standard LE upsell).

Upgrades in *every* industry are all about perceived value. They make more money off people who pay extra for them.

In the end, I guess I just don't believe the people who said they'd buy it for $8k if it only had [insert feature or list of features].

#68 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

If they can't make profit at $5k, then we don't get WOOLY. Tough, but simple

It seems fairly certain that no boutique builder can.

#69 4 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

I was specifically responding to the post that an LCD was a $1500 improvement. You threw in an LCD, new toys, and a different art package in your analogy. (Which I agree, is the standard LE upsell).
Upgrades in *every* industry are all about perceived value. They make more money off people who pay extra for them.

I would say the LCD easily adds the $1500 (or whatever random number we're cooking up for the argument) in COST in materials and time to develop colorizing, animation, etc... especially on a small run machine.

Quoted from ryanwanger:

I've played WOZ dozens of times and the only time I can bother to look up at the LCD is during the ball lock animation.

And I agree with your assessment of the lack of $1500 VALUE the LCD brings.

Honestly, if I could shave $1500 off the cost of WoZ or TH and remove the LCD in favor of a simple DMD, I would be much more compelled to pull the trigger on those machines (or would have pre-CDN dollar bed-crapping )

-1
#70 4 years ago

They've previously stated that the BOM is $7K on WOOLY. They need to cut $1K minimum off of that to compete, in my opinion.

#71 4 years ago

Theme is meh, but looking past that, timing with preorder burnout is causing startups to face little preordering.

I was a huge preorder guy, PRED is my last one. Ever. Sorry startups, it's over with this buyer.

Done with huge info update gaps, and the ceaseless waiting, waiting, waiting. ( I'm not sitting by the phone, just tying my money and space up is all).

#72 4 years ago
Quoted from ryanwanger:

It seems fairly certain that no boutique builder can.

*shrug* so be it. Without knowing what true build costs are it impossible to know if it's manufacturing cost or profitability level that are the issue.

For the record I do have an opinion on WOOLY cost/pricing based on conversations I had with Riot folks at Expo 2013. I won't discuss any specifics as it's not my place and I'm sure things have changed somewhat, so all I will say is: based on my knowledge, imo I believe it's priced too high.

#73 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Theme is meh, but looking past that, timing with preorder burnout is causing startups to face little preordering.
I was a huge preorder guy, PRED is my last one. Ever. Sorry startups, it's over with this buyer.
Done with huge info update gaps, and the ceaseless waiting, waiting, waiting. ( I'm not sitting by the phone, just tying my money and space up is all).

Also a great point of major note and it ties right in with the price.

I think in late 2013-early 2014 you could have MAYBE pulled off the $8k WOOLY price point with 100 pre-orders.

I think with JPop, SkitB, DP, and even JJP somewhat at times, it's now too late for any of that high-priced preorder stuff to work well anymore

#74 4 years ago
Quoted from jwilson:

They've previously stated that the BOM is $7K on WOOLY. They need to cut $1K minimum off of that to compete, in my opinion.

That's not the BOM on WOOLY. That's what it costs right now to build a one-off prototype. Very different proposition.

#75 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

That's not the BOM on WOOLY. That's what it costs right now to build a one-off prototype. Very different proposition.

Yeah, there is no way that the BOM of the machine is 7k. If anything, that's including labor of assembly, which isn't really material.

#76 4 years ago

I loved WOOLY when I saw it. I think it was an impressive prototype. I should have been all over that pre-order. The issue for me was what a lot of people had. I couldn't reconcile this as an $8K machine. The shots were inventive, but there's no mechs in the game that are all that complex. I can understand $8K for TBL, with a bowling alley mech and a lot of intricate mechs, plus licensed music and art, but I just don't see how WOOLY could justify that price on BOM alone, since there were no licenses for the art and sound assets.

Had it been in the $6500-7000 range (like WoZ at the start), I would have been all over it, and then some.

#77 4 years ago
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:

I disagree with this attitude intensely. Customers should NOT be content to be railroaded into spending $8k just because that's "normal" now. Competition needs to work harder on bringing down prices while delivering a 'traditional' pinball experience (Spooky) or focus on delivering something wildly innovative that can justify a premium pricetag (multimorphic P3).
Just my 2 cents.

Why quote the top and leave out the bottom part fella? Seems like a very disingenuous move on your part bloke. Quote me in my entirety on don't call me Shirley at all.

#78 4 years ago

I saw a video of it a while back. It looked kinda cool but so do most older B/W pins that cost a fraction less. I like the idea of going with original themes but the price is too high. I like TBL a lot but same thing - too expensive.

#79 4 years ago
Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

Why quote the top and leave out the bottom part fella? Seems like a very disingenuous move on your part bloke. Quote me in my entirety on don't call me Shirley at all.

Saves space and time for folks reading, and it was the topic sentence from your post to which I desired to respond to. Pretty standard forum etiquette as I certainly didn't change the context of your statement, nor did I reword anything on your part. Your second paragraph about Spooky buying into Riot or whatever has nothing to do with your $8k comment nor my response to it, so I excluded it from my post as I have no opinion or thought on it.

But since you're a bit grumpy about it:

Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

I'm staggered people are saying 8k is pricey. Isn't that just where we are now? On par with TBL and a stern Le? Don't think its an accurate comparison to be citing stern pros.
Spooky 6k is pretty impressive and I be.ieve the best way for wooly to eventuate is for them to buy out/into riot. Alternatively pre sell to 5-10 distributors if that's at all possible.

I disagree with this attitude intensely. Customers should NOT be content to be railroaded into spending $8k just because that's "normal" now. Competition needs to work harder on bringing down prices while delivering a 'traditional' pinball experience (Spooky) or focus on delivering something wildly innovative that can justify a premium pricetag (multimorphic P3).

Just my 2 cents.

...happier now?

2 weeks later
#80 4 years ago

I like the theme too. Could not spend $8 though like many have said. For that price you would think a large LCD would be installed, a shaker and color changing LED's through out for sure.

#81 4 years ago
Quoted from mrgone:

Y who is a member here creates an awesome game and nothing but crickets?

Never seen the thing.

#82 4 years ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

I saw a video of it a while back. It looked kinda cool but so do most older B/W pins that cost a fraction less. I like the idea of going with original themes but the price is too high.

This is a true fact. Maybe 50 people saw WOOLY as an $8000 game. Most people say it looks like a cool game, but IMO it's more-so at $6500. Some people say AMH a good deal at $6000, but to me AMH is too expensive for what it is. IMO, no offense to Spooky and Ben and all their good work, but to me, I'm not buying at that price.

I think, 4-5 years back pins were selling for $4800-$6500. I am talking about games such as SM (even BSM), AcDc LE (etc.) and that was that. It doesn't cost that much more to build a STLE than it does to build an AcDc LE. But the market moved up to what people were willing to spend.

WoZ as well found a price that was just high enough that they could still sell a good number of pins.

But with TH and MMR and whatever else prices going up to $8K we are going to see what's better selling a good number or selling a small number at an inflated price.

I understand WOOLY is not looking to sell a large number of pins, but you just can't look at the highest price on the market and expect that to be the new normal.

#83 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Some people say AMH a good deal at $6000, but to me AMH is too expensive for what it is. IMO, no offense to Spooky and Ben and all their good work, but to me, I'm not buying at that price.

Just curious, what makes it not worth it to you? The art and look of things?

#84 4 years ago

Sorry going off topic but agree with Rai. Kudos to Ben and all that got done but I would not pay more than 4500 . It's why I don't own one and I like buying new pins. Gameplay feels very basic. To be honest even that's high for the feel of the game to me. Sorry

#85 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Just curious, what makes it not worth it to you? The art and look of things?

I've played it, was not crazy about the art but that's not the main thing. It just seemed to be somewhat home made, not cheap mind you but not exactly what I expect of a production pin (in places). It's fine, is high quality parts and all, but I'd take a Tron pro or IM VE (for game play) and honestly PotC and ST/SM as well.

I understand it's totally a subjective thing, but to me, if Tron/IM (I got both for under $5K) than there is not point in me paying $6K for AMH. Heck I paid $4600 for Tron, give me the other $1500 in mods and beer and I'll be happy as a clam and not really miss AMH if I don't play it again.

I don't want to make this a huge issue, and I know Pinside ratings are what they are. But from my limited play, I don't find AMH to be a top50 game.

I don't have a ton of hands on time, but I played it several times, know a guy who owned it for about a month. He didn't feel it was worth what he could get in trade for it.

Everyone will have their own opinions. That's why they make so many flavors of ice cream and all.

#86 4 years ago

I set my limit at "insane prices I will not buy at" after pre-ordering WOZ. That limit was set at $7500. So it looks like I will never have another NIB game and thats fine with me due to the current prices and what we are actually getting (with incomplete code) for our money.

I feel sorry for newbies getting into the hobby. They are gonna feel butt raped by the time they get their 3rd game.

#87 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Sorry going off topic but agree with Rai. Kudos to Ben and all that got done but I would not pay more than 4500 . It's why I don't own one and I like buying new pins. Gameplay feels very basic. To be honest even that's high for the feel of the game to me. Sorry

sure, could be the theme, could be any number of things. But it didn't really grab me. Say Met pro (mod that to the moon) or even a Met premium (or ST premium) that's more that I'm thinking of for $6K.

AcDc premium all day long is less than $6K.

#88 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

I feel sorry for newbies getting into the hobby. They are gonna feel butt raped by the time they get their 3rd game.

you could have bought Met pro or IMVE for $4400-$4700 NIB and that's about what Stern pro games were (8-9 years ago adjusted for inflation) course the new Stern pros, they have some stuff removed in the meantime, but they are in the ballpark of what they were in the past.

Edit: I mean no disrespect to AMH, Spooky and Ben for that matter. AMH Just wasn't my type of game, i don't like WoZ particularly either, I'm more into a certain type of game.

However, I am not qualified to review it, I didn't rate it cost I'm not really qualified to, having less than 15 total games on it.

#89 4 years ago

If you're expecting to buy a boutique game, from anyone, for Stern Pro prices, then might as well just give up on every buying one. Just can't be done, the numbers aren't there. But I get expecting value for your money.

AMH has a little bit of a homebrew feel to it. Because that's what it was. It was the efforts of a very small team, figuring things out as they went. I think it's awesome. But I agree it doesn't feel as polished as "commercial" games from bigger companies. And I totally get that it doesn't feel worth as much because of that to some people who are looking for a certain type of game.

Packaging counts!

It's really almost as important as theme in some ways.

#90 4 years ago

I'm gonna say "boutique" is finished. Especially at 8k.

Unless your name is Jpop, and that thought is hanging by the slimest of threads.

Stern, JJP, Heighway and maybe Spooky will be left standing.

Maybe

-1
#91 4 years ago

The acronym is so silly I can't follow this pin

#92 4 years ago
Quoted from RCA1:

It also seems like people are starting to lose faith in pre-orders in general.

GOOD.

Maybe startup companies should have a business plan before coming here and taking people's money.

Maybe startup companies should deliver on their promises instead of coming up with excuse after excuse as to why they're months to years behind.

Maybe......just maybe.....startup companies should have their OWN ass on the line, their OWN balls in a sling, and their OWN money on the line instead of coming here as a charity case, taking people's money, and then either turning tail and running while whimpering that their glass feelings got broken, saying making pinball machines is too hard, or flat out ignoring people's questions and just doing whatever they want without any reason or accountability.

I will make sure that I burn all of my machines to the ground before I ever go in on a pre-order. If some more remakes happen after MMr ("Are you ready for the next Attack....?"), those machines will be on the production line, with the PPS logo stamped on the box as they are getting packed in, and my name on one with my vehicle waiting outside, and my money in my hand as I see it loaded into the back of my truck/SUV.

Pre-orders....might as well call it Ponzi-orders.

#93 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

The acronym is so silly I can't follow this pin

Wet Wooly is much better.

#94 4 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

GOOD.
Maybe startup companies should have a business plan before coming here and taking people's money.
Maybe startup companies should deliver on their promises instead of coming up with excuse after excuse as to why they're months to years behind.
Maybe......just maybe.....startup companies should have their OWN ass on the line, their OWN balls in a sling, and their OWN money on the line instead of coming here as a charity case, taking people's money, and then either turning tail and running while whimpering that their glass feelings got broken, saying making pinball machines is too hard, or flat out ignoring people's questions and just doing whatever they want without any reason or accountability.
I will make sure that I burn all of my machines to the ground before I ever go in on a pre-order. If some more remakes happen after MMr ("Are you ready for the next Attack....?"), those machines will be on the production line, with the PPS logo stamped on the box as they are getting packed in, and my name on one with my vehicle waiting outside, and my money in my hand as I see it loaded into the back of my truck/SUV.
Pre-orders....might as well call it Ponzi-orders.

Agree, I was on a few pre-orders. With the exception of WoZ none of them have shipped. I am talking Predator, MMR and RAZA.

While I can appreciate that thing can be unexpected causing delays, that's not my problem, that the game manufactures problem. The idea of collecting massive amounts of money in advance is the manufacturers way of making it my problem.

I have recovered all my pre order deposits, and will pay as I go from now on. If I miss out on a certain game, so be it. To me games are like busses, if I miss one there will be another shortly.

Plus, correct me if I'm wrong. With the exception of WoZ LE at $6500, all these pre orders are not exactly like you are getting a discount for funding the start up buisness.

Even Predator if it's $5k with shipping, really that's the max it's worth IMO it's got no interactive toys, the hanging bodies and skull are mere decorations, the only thing that interacts with the ball in an active way is the claw diverter and the post blocker and really I don't count diverters or post blockers as toys. Even the magical UV paint (IMO) doesn't work so I don't count that for anythig. The main interest for me with Predator is the rules and the way you can log in and track various things that more mainstream gamse don't allow.

#95 4 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

Maybe......just maybe.....startup companies should have their OWN ass on the line, their OWN balls in a sling, and their OWN money on the line instead of coming here as a charity case, taking people's money, and then either turning tail and running while whimpering that their glass feelings got broken, saying making pinball machines is too hard, or flat out ignoring people's questions and just doing whatever they want without any reason or accountability.

As a point, Spooky did just fucking make machines. They've made a hundred or so at this point. But Charlie's not willing to bet the farm on Wooly, and given that it's a contract job, I don't blame him.

#96 4 years ago

IMO this price range is silly, yes I payed too much for STLE. I love the game and it was my stand-in for MMR. But to be honest, I feel cheated by $7700 for STLE, because the code is not great.

IMO you may get more for your money at JJP but I don't like WoZ. WoZ has a ton of features and the rules are off the hook. I think we should expect a lot more from Stern, they have gotten up there with prices but not finishing code or not polishing the code until it's better than great is total BS.

For $8k I'm expecting color changing inserts at the minimum. I like MM or AFM and sure they are great games, but I'm not spending $8k for the remakes or the origonals for that matter and those are top5 games. To me an unproven game needs to be cheaper than $8k especially if it doesn't offer a lot of extras like toys or color changing inserts or lighted ramps (etc..). WOOLY seems to me like a simple game, standard pinball that we have seen since the time of IJ. I know it's computer software and rules are better but the basic hardware seems standard to me.

#97 4 years ago
Quoted from Excalabur:

As a point, Spooky did just fucking make machines. They've made a hundred or so at this point. But Charlie's not willing to bet the farm on Wooly, and given that it's a contract job, I don't blame him.

You're absolutely correct. Spooky is pretty much the exception.

PPS is also an exception. While delays have sucked, Rick has been straight with the community (in my limited viewing), and I respect that.

#98 4 years ago

The classic problem you have with an unlicensed theme is that most buyers need to be told it is "great" so they start to think it is great. This is the classic "artistic appreciation" weakness of human sociology/psychology. Now throw a 25% price kick on top and critical mass becomes impossible.

If wooly was my project, I would de everything I could to chop cost and innovate production techniques to build my own machines at my own pace. By getting rid of the pre-pay model altogether there could be a chance for incubating the fan base.

Let's face the truth: the market for this product ranges between 2 diametrically opposed types of character. The hardened operator who couldn't care less about anything other than ROI and the fickle collector that generally needs to be shown the herd so they know which direction to run toward the front. This is a gross over-simplification, but a startup needs to generally cater to one or the other to gin up the demand strong enough to make the game commercially viable.

A project like this will always have problems reaching critical mass because it doesn't have an established herd mentality like the licensed theme or the artist/designer fandom ala JPOP. Missing both those elements, price will become the driving factor..... unless you can get several machines in the wild and the quality of design and build organizes a herd stampede.

It's a tough row to hoe, but take a look how many non-licensed themes are in the top 100. It's doable, but it really takes a complete package (which wooly may well be) and a thrust into the marketplace (which wooly may be incapable of). I played this game on my simulator early on and besides the boobies on the early simulation, I thought it was a winner. It will require some big innovation in the market-entry department to flourish.

#99 4 years ago
Quoted from SadSack:

The classic problem...

Is that you, SadSack? No one stole your Pin ID?

#100 4 years ago

I don't plan on buying 8k pins......any 8k pins. I won't say "never" because never is a long time and things change......like inflation. But for now I think 8k is stupid money on a pinball machine.....and I love pinball machines!

I just dropped the most I ever have on one game....an IMVE. Alien has come the closest (but I decided against it) to setting a new bar for me but even on that I would not consider the "LE" version.

It's not the money that's the issue.....it's the cost.

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