Honestly, because they are stupid. I get why Stern doesn't do it, retooling is a bitch, but JJP had a chance to reinvent the wheel and they went down the same foolish path. JJP should have eliminated the back box all together, reduce weight and shipping on an already beast of a machine.

Let me clarify, the real question is not what to build the cabinet out of, the real question is why has there been no innovation in the cabinet design. Wood is fine, heck make the damn thing out of steel for all I care, but why ship an entire cabinet, speakers, screen, legs, etc every time a game is released..................Answer, because they are stupid!

_{Post edited by thedarkknight77 : spelling}

it's about the cost.

Dont fix it if its not broken - especially if it will cost you more money.. spend the money on better design or modernizing the electronics etc. as Jersey Jack did - I dont think thats stupid.

Interesting concept . Maybe hasn't been done because the walls of the cabinet need to be a certain thickness to hold flipper buttons , screws for the flipper switches and such things . I think if a cabinet were made of fiberglass and was same thickness as a plywood cabinet it would weigh more . Maybe the way to go would be Balsa wood sandwiched between carbon fiber , this is how Corvette Z06 floor boards are done . Would be lighter , also would be much much more expensive than a plywood cabinet . Also empy plywood cabinets don't really weigh that much ,carbon fiber cabinet would be cool to see but really isn't going to make your complete game weigh that much less . But yeah I would say its a cost issue , and no real reason to spend that much more money to make a cabinet.

TDK77, No it isn't because we are stupid...It's actually because we AREN't stupid.

Fiberglass isn't NEARLY as strong as wood and Lexan flexes. With woz coming in at > 300 lbs that would have been a bad idea. A Carbon Fiber would have cost as much as the entire game.

Anyone ever buy a carbon fiber diffuser for their car for example? something that is 4 feet wide by 3 inches thick is 1300-1700 dollars retail. Somehow I doubt making an entire cabinet out of the stuff would have been cost effective

I guess the same question to ask is, why are NEW construction homes wood frame? Surely a composite frame would work? Nope. Most composites are used as exterior panelling or facade, not as load bearing structures with few exceptions.

Carbon fiber monocockpits like on F1 cars are extremely strong and extremely expensive. They are also unrepairable. You guys want a composite structure that can't be repaired by a restorer should something happen? And shit does happen... The stuff you buy sheets of at autozone to stick to the dashboard in your car if you are a "tuner" (lol) isn't carbon fiber. It's a faux overlay. True CF is vacuum formed inbetween layers of epoxy and is done by had.

Alex - I should correct my post as I wasn't speaking specifically about Carbon Fiber vs. Wood or Fiberglass, but I could go there if you want, as I am plenty versed. I was speaking about the entire design of the cabinet which is flawed. Shipping an entire cabinet for each machine is foolish considering the nature of the business for operators and the limited space for home users. Pinball 2000 was revolutionary in this and we have made no progress. Lastly, I will leave you with this, just because most cars run on gas, doesn't make it the best alternative...........Just because wood is still used in making houses, doesn't make it the best alternative. Fact, less and less wood are being used in houses today, just like less and less metal are being used in cars today.

I would have liked to see some creativity in that area as well, but JJP seemed to be targeting the "pining for the '90's" Williams collectors, and messing with the traditional formula too much probably would have scared a lot of them off.

I see nothing but wood around here in all new construction. I haven't seen a non wood frame yet.

WoZ head can be removed EASILY for transport. Its just 3 connections (power video and sound) and a few hinge bolts.

Anyone who has shipped a Pin2k knows its much more difficult to ship than a standard pinball. The folding design of the standard pinball is great and makes the machine more compact. (fits on a 36" pallet). A pin2k needs a 48" pallet and most shippers wont ship it if its not in one piece. Taking the head off is a royal pain in the arse. Now granted taking the head off older machines can be an exercise in patience but that was addressed in WOZ. The only way Pin2k was revolutionary in "space savings" was the shorter playfield. Nothing else made it any more attractive in that respect.

People here thrive on backglasses and make purchasing decisions based on it. Have you been reading the metallica threads? I'm not buying a premium if they have the band and not the art on the backglass.

Removing the head would have gone over like a lead balloon. At that point it would look like a glass coffee table.

Thedarknight77 are you refering to the kits that were made for the pinball 2000 ? Like having one cabinet for revenge from mars and being able to drop a star wars episode one playfield in. Thus having 2 games with only one cabinet . Makes sense for people with limeted space , but many pinball owners can't even change a bulb , So nice idea but won't work for many buyers. And no way you can just get rid of the backbox , It is one of the iconic features in pinball .

Understood people are not always ready for change, but it is amazing how much they embrace it when it is the right kind of change. I will just say there is room for change in pinball.

Stop limiting what is possible by what others have done. Pinball 2000 is not the answer, but it was full of innovative ideas...........That is the key.........."Innovation".

CF is very exspensive, i cant really see any advantage to makeing a CF cabinet. Not only that, but CF has a lifespan, which is much shorter than wood.

Im kind of glad pinball machines still look like they always have over the years.

Bingo.

You still need ribbing/frame for the fiberglass and carbon fiber is way more expensive.

Some of the KISS pinball prototypes were made in a fiberglass cab.

Fiberglass is fragile, it stinks for a long time, and is made of toxic chemicals.

Wood is organic and renewable. Even the glues they use between the plys are non toxic nowadays.

why would you even consider making one out of anything BUT wood? it's cheap, strong and works...

sometimes, it really isn't a good idea to try and reinvent the wheel...

Anything is posible , Not trying to put a limit on on it . Just thought you were refering to the swapable playfields because of this line.

If I missunderstood , I'm sorry . Innovation is really cool but when the cost of making the innovation outweighs any profit that could be made from it ,Its hard to find someone to go ahead with the innovative ideas . The OP of this thread may build himself a carbon fiber cabinet , But I think he'd have a hard time selling one because the cost of making one would be so large . And I'm sure there are many great innovative ideas for pinball out there that have been left behind simply because the just cost too much .

+10000 Vid is 100% correct. Sometimes the original method is the best method.

Why in the world would I want the backglass eliminated? That doesn't sound "innovative" it sounds like change for the sake of change. What is that going to accomplish? No operator is going to put it in the middle of a room, with people gathered in some kind of circle around it, it's still going to be backed up against a wall. And now what? It doesn't have a giant lit sign to advertise that it's there? Yeah, that's real op friendly.

I don't want someone to reinvent pinball, I want people to continue making the games we love. You want to put the DMD on the playfield like CV or turn the backglass into an LCD like WOZ or whatever, hey, go for it. But I like pinball being pinball, I can turn to a myriad of other entertainment options if I want something else.

Exactly. Perfectly stated.

I have two young kids at home and we use a ton of milk. Always thought someone should save and recycle the jugs and make a cab out of them.

^^^

that would "interesting"...

making a cabinet out of plastics would introduce a challenging set of issues...

Best response yet. Risk/reward is not there as pinball is already dead from a mass marketing perspective. That being said, maybe we are just a bunch of stubborn old men circling around a 55 Chevy talking about the old days. If that's the case, you guys are 100% right there is no reason to change anything, because everything is perfect. God bless America.

That being said here is my take. Pinball would be better suited if the cabinets were a base structure with an LCD. As an operator or HUO player, you could order a play field or a cabinet or both. There would be plenty of ways you could pimp out your custom cabinet and make it "yours". A speaker up grade or a shaker installation would not be something you had to do with every purchase and because of it, Stern could charge more for those parts. This change would cut production costs and production timing, while reducing shipping weight. The innovation would not be in "changing pinball", but changing the current cost/production model which would allow for better margins and a healthier niche market. If an operator has a game go down, no worries, swap out the playfield and make the proper repairs to the broken one while a new game is running..........No need to tie up the space, which is the largest issue in business. ROI per square foot. You cannot make money if you are paying rent on space that is not producing. Where is there opportunity for addition revenue??? Mods and customization!!!! Stern could easily sell software upgrades and even sell Cabinet mods directly. Hopefully this gives you guys some perspective into what I am thinking. By the way, these discussion are good, they are basically a working think tank which is how all great products come to be.

^^^

oh yea, playfield swaps are a piece of cake compared to fixing whatever might be broken...

"re-theming" a game isn't innovation, they did that 40 years ago...

Cf or fiberglass would not be an ideal medium for attaching screws over and over again. Wood is much more forgiving to be taken apart and serviced. Cost would also be astronomical compared to wood.

You're basically just describing Pin2K here.

Here's the problem (well one problem) with that notion. It's built as a system to replace, not add, games. That's not going to work a lot of the time, maybe even most of the time. So you need a whole separate system to sell the whole cab and playfield (lots of people need the whole thing, they're not looking to give up their old game for the new one). Problem is, you just made your modular cabinet more expensive as part of this, so your cost for a full package goes up, and you have to maintain an inventory that's bifurcated between whole systems and replacement playfields, which makes your inventory a lot more complicated and expensive.

I build carbon fiber pieces every day at work. Trust me, you can't afford it for a Pinball cabinet.

^^^

cool, a cf expert... just for my edification... i'm guessing that a pin cabinet would run well into 5 figures... that a reasonable guesstimate?

i fully admit i could be in la-la land on that guesstimate, but in either case, it would be WAY more than 75 dollars (or so) worth of plywood...

Without a doubt 10k+ A tiny piece for your car of proper non chinese carbon fiber will run 2k without breaking a sweat. For example the rear seat delete option for my old E46 M3 track car was big bucks. I didn't get it because i'm not mental but real CF is just ungodly expensive.

http://parts.ind-distribution.com/product/IND%20Carbon%20Fiber%20rear%20seat%20delete%5E648.php

^^^

yea, i was basing that guess on what i knew about how much cf parts (real ones) for cars cost... i haven't run cones over in a LONG time, but cf parts weren't cheap back then...

Did you autox at giants stadium with mclub or @ pnc with pca/ bmwcca?

^^^

nope, neither... just down in south jersey... sadly, my skill level topped out well below what i would have hoped, and it was a godawful expensive (and time consuming) hobby... when it became a chore rather than fun, i got out...

that doesn't mean that i still don't want a p-car someday... but i've already learned my limitations...

interesting point with the carbon fibre cab (dam expensive), fibreglass will be just as heavy I think.

A cab with a linear actuated backbox (simple boxed translite / LCD only) could be cool raising out of the cabinet when sited or on and retracted for freight, storage. Though I think many people are just use to a certain look and this idea may look out of proportion - possibly starting to look like a "The Pin"

I used to love autox and I instructed for mclub and bmwcca but it got to be too much. Here is a video in my c6 when I had it. (2005 car. 2006 season)

^^^

wicked cool...

I like translites and backglasses myself, so I agree taking the head off would have been a bad move.

I know the multimorphic P3 game kicked around the idea of removing the back box so more people could gather around and get a better view of the player playing, but I personally think removing artwork really doesn't make a better game, even though it might make it more practical.

*shakes head in disbelief someone actually asked this*

Alex, if you spent the time programming woz that you spent posting here it would be done

LOL I can multitask effectively

that might be intriguing... would likely add a decent cost to the bom, as you'd need a very reliable lift system...

since i don't play them, the dmd/lcd discussion isn't something i can get into, other than to say that raw lcd panels are dirt cheap now (especially lower end ones, which is all you would need for a pin) and given the prices i've seen used dmd's at, i'd wager cheaper than dmd's... personally, i prefer score reels...

the flip side of the lcd cost issue though is that if you are gonna render video on the fly, it's gonna cost on the processor side...

cool, a cf expert... just for my edification... i'm guessing that a pin cabinet would run well into 5 figures... that a reasonable guesstimate?
i fully admit i could be in la-la land on that guesstimate, but in either case, it would be WAY more than 75 dollars (or so) worth of plywood...

I've built master molds for aircraft composite parts, made parts, and repaired parts. To build a composite cabinet, you could build something out of cf that is very strong, and very much lighter than plywood. You would have to have inserts for screws, and some sort of honeycomb for strength.
That makes it very complicated, and much harder for changes later. To do it right you need a temperature and humidity controlled room. A large autoclave is needed, which makes mass production very hard unless you have a lot of autoclaves. The man hours needed to create each side would make it cost prohibitive. All aircraft manufacturers are jumping on the Carbon fibre bandwagon and have driven parts costs up. Once you have the cabinet made, and somebody damages the side, unless you want a crummy repair, you need someone who can do repairs with heat and vacuum bags. In short, the average person, will end up doing poor repairs.
In short..
Parts expensive
Manpower is huge
Repairs unpractical

It would be a very cool cabinet though.

That's not real carbon fiber. The outer weave would be but its decorative at best. If you are using a poly core and 10oz/20oz quad weave it wouldn't be structural just ornamental.

Let's get one thing straight, technology has come a long way since the year 2000, so I am not sure it makes any sense to keep on bringing up pinball 2000. There has been massive deflation in computer processors, memory, screens etc. You are correct, it would make the modular cabinet more expensive to a degree, but I am not suggesting that the customer will save thousands. All successful business plans cause inflation, not deflation. Let me offer you this, imagine you paid $3000 for a new game with no cabinet, If you were to extract the cost of just the play field, you would see that you were actually paying more for what you received, but your out of pocket cost and storage needs to enjoy a new game would be less.

If someone were willing to pay for a giant injection mold, You could pop out cabinets made of polypropylene for probably $5 in material, but the tool would cost upwards of $300k (and people would probably complain it felt cheap). It would also probably need lots of ribbing to stiffen up the sides.

nah, that's just "import tuner" cf... it's merely a covering for a core... structural cf would cost mucho more than that... go back and ask him what it would cost to make as a structural component without a core...

there is a place for a lighter cabinet, sure... unfortunately, to produce one that does as good a job as plain old plywood does would be prohibitively expensive... plywood is cheap, strong, easily repairable and requires no expertise to work with... "innovation for the sake of innovation", while an interesting thought experiment, accomplishes squat when faced with the hard reality of the bottom line...

frankly, if anything, manufacturers would be better off stepping back a step or two, as producing a game with anything approaching complete/functional code appears to be a task they are still struggling with... not surprising reaaly, as i doubt they devote anywhere near the resources to software development/testing as they should... edit: thats not a shot at the coders, as i feel their pain, having been there myself...

Pinball cabinets have been made of wood for centuries. Since the 1700's. Try circling an ox cart instead. d

Now is not the time for major changes. Despite what you may read here, pinball is long way from being 'back'. Sales to operators have been dropping steadily for years. Dropping faster than sales to home buyers have increased. Stern is currently developing a new board/operating system and finally increased sales last year, despite selling less games. No way it would have been a good idea for JJP to screw with the cabinet. Just making it a wide body and adding an LCD gave them plenty of extra work. An all new cabinet would have set them back even farther on a couple of levels. Not to mention potentially alienating players like P2K did.

Wait until annual sales hit 30 or 40k games a year for all the manufacturers. Then you may see one or two try something different with the cab. Too small of a market now to try big changes.

You could build something that was very strong and very light, but very costly. The manpower and fabric cost is prohibitive, not to mention resin, tooling costs, fabrication time. My only concern would be, how would a pin that much lighter play? You may be tilting way too much because you'd be flinging it all over the place regardless of the other parts. I've built carbon fibre aircraft parts that are very light and strong, but maybe too light. You'd have to add weight to make it play normal, which negates the whole reason for making it out of composite materials in the first place.
The only way is to rethink how a pinball plays. Not sure the world is ready for that drastic a change. After all over the last 80 years pinball has evolved slowly. A huge change may kill it.

Problem is, I am pretty positive pinball will never hit 30 or 40k games a year again unless we see innovation. Pinball is dead in that regard. I still think we could get to 20,000, but not with the current retail structure.