(Topic ID: 157718)

Why is TWD pro ranked so low?

By rai

7 years ago


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There are 106 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 7 years ago

I've played twd pro a bit, didn't seem too gimped for a pro, fact is I probably like if without the moving BG ramp. Crossbow is nice, but I could greatly do without it.

Anyway the point I'm trying to make is TWD pro is ranked below 23 other Stern pins including ACDC pro, XM pro, TFLE, BTDK, GOT pro, RBION etc.....

I know it's not like its ranked down with SP or anything but I'm just curious why it's so low and is if justified? Only a few Stern pins recent ranked lower such as TAV, WWE, Mustang etc.

Don't get me wrong too 100 is nothing to sneeze at.

Is there some fundamental flaw?

Discuss.

#2 7 years ago

I am definately interested in educated opinions, I have been on the verge of pulling the trigger on one.

#3 7 years ago

Cheap drains and the code didn't get good for a while. I've never seen a good playing pro on location. Tilt warnings to save the cheap drains, followed by tilts or just letting it go. That leaves a bad impression that is hard to get over.

25
#4 7 years ago

Don't look at the ratings they are meaningless. Play the game, if you like it, get it and enjoy it.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Is there some fundamental flaw?

yes, any rating system is flawed. Esp one like a pinball rating system where fans that have limited experience with games are able to rate games.

We determined long ago that the Pinside rating system holds very little value. Numerous filtering suggestions have been made to make it better or atleast more user selectable filters, but nothing has been done.

#6 7 years ago

everybody bought the premium ?

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I've never seen a good playing pro on location.

Hmm, no complaints from players at my locations. In fact, it's earnings are stellar. Potentially not tweaked right (larger post rubber out of the pops fixes the drains from the pops), or level?

It's got a different lay out for sure, so initial plays take some getting used to the geometry of the shots. Lots of brick shots.

It's a hard game. Some players don't like that.

Redneck call outs are really not great. Thankfully custom speech code exists.

Finally ... haters gonna hate.

It's a great game. Really tough, some frustration, tense atmosphere, but super satisfying when you have a good game going.

I'd say it's the best Stern Pro since Metallica.

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

yes, any rating system is flawed. Esp one like a pinball rating system where fans that have limited experience with games are able to rate games.
We determined long ago that the Pinside rating system holds very little value. Numerous filtering suggestions have been made to make it better or atleast more user selectable filters, but nothing has been done.

People review games they've played once or have watched a youtube video of.

People review games with early code, and never update their reviews later when the game is more complete.

Games generally debut on the charts high because it only has a handful of reviews, and then the haters come on and try to push it down because they don't think it deserves to be there.

People have financial incentive to pump up games they own, and give bad reviews to games that they don't.

People review games and then leave Pinside, years later their reviews still stand without context against newer releases.

I've personally given up on the Pinside charts. I don't participate in them, I don't review games any more, and I don't look at them.

#9 7 years ago

I agree the rating system is not great and some people rank a game without really knowing it.

I only rank games I've owned. I'm sure some have raked a game after a few pulls at a convention without optimal lighting or sound and without understanding the rules.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

People review games they've played once or have watched a youtube video of.
People review games with early code, and never update their reviews later when the game is more complete.
Games generally debut on the charts high because it only has a handful of reviews, and then the haters come on and try to push it down because they don't think it deserves to be there.
People have financial incentive to pump up games they own, and give bad reviews to games that they don't.
People review games and then leave Pinside, years later their reviews still stand without context against newer releases.
I've personally given up on the Pinside charts. I don't participate in them, I don't review games any more, and I don't look at them.

Makes sense, I suspect it'll settle somewhat higher eventually when the dust settles.

I'm just trying to see how is some game like BOP or JP *better*?

Additionally why TWD pro is ranked so far below the premium?

#11 7 years ago

Twd pro is a great game. If it weren't for walker bombs on the premium I would have stuck with the pro. Many of the added premium features are good but it was the walker bombs alone that made the difference for me. If a pro is in your sights, grab it. If it frustrates you fix those items and then enjoy it. It's Lymans masterpiece in the rules department.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Makes sense, I suspect it'll settle somewhat higher eventually when the dust settles.
I'm just trying to see how is some old game like BOP *better*?
Additionally why TWD pro is ranked so far below the premium?

Of course those old games are not better. That's the thing on the entire top 100 chart. Some game like funhouse, which admittedly was a marvel in its time, is not 25 years later still better than most every game today. Anyways, I'm sure there are some valid opinions to the contrary.

#13 7 years ago

TWDpro is one of the best games released by Stern in recent years. Not just from an operators standpoint but from a players as well. The game is a great earner and a beast to play! The code has really turned this from a turd to a fun and challenging game. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one!

#15 7 years ago

Its because the code wasnt great until late last year, most of the ratings were from before that, twd pro is amazing now. Pretty much the best stern pro ever made next to lotr IMO.

#16 7 years ago

I'm glad I'm a player.... ..............Joey

#17 7 years ago

Where ever it's rated, walking dead pro is a awsome game ... Full stop!!!!!

#18 7 years ago

It's ranked so low because not enough people have voted for it to be higher.

#19 7 years ago

TWD pro is an awesome game. I think it's rated a little lower than it should for a couple of reasons though. When I first played it, I hated it. Walked away with credits on the game still. There were cheap drains that drove me nuts. Also, the code wasn't really there yet. Now that the code is amazing, the game is as well. In the home setting, you can set up the machine to get rid of most of the cheap drains. You can add star posts. You can also add the outlane extenders. I added the outlane extenders and properly leveled my machine and it's great! I would have rate TWD pro very low after first playing it. Now, I rate it as one of Stern's best.

#20 7 years ago

I rate games but the ratings are horseshit, is that a contradiction? The pre is the way to go with TWD but nothing wrong with the pro. My issue with that game was the LE being a rip off and code taking almost 2 years to come around, that pin killed NIB Sterns for me, bought a Met Pre after the code was complete and it was great, no need to keep it longer than I wanted waiting on code and all the fixes were complete, thats the ticket.

#21 7 years ago

The code was terrible on initial release. Perhaps that has played into the ratings?

I hated it when it was released. Found it very boring. I honestly thought code couldn't save the game and didn't enjoy the shots.

Fast forward to the last code release and it really changed everything. Really opened my eyes to the importance of code. I realized good code could make a decent game incredible, but really didn't think a crappy game could become awesome.

TWD is an awesome game. I disagree with Hazoff. The Pro is great value and it's the version I plan on buying some day. I play the game on location and have found it holds up well.

#22 7 years ago

Twd pro is the funnest pin ever made by stern imo

#23 7 years ago

I wasn't a fan of it the first few times I played it. Always seems like the magnets threw the ball STDM. And the left ramp is like a 80 degree incline. I couldn't get the ball up it.

#24 7 years ago

Why? Well, as has been stated the game had bad code for too long and tends to have bad drains. On top of that the game artwork is nothing special. More cut and paste stuff with large AMC logos. The sounds are so bad people have been replacing them.

I'm glad the code update has made the game a fun player. But the ratings take more into account. And if the code was complete when people first played it I'm sure they would be better.

#25 7 years ago

When I played TWD Pro (15 or 20 games on location in Modern Pinball, NYC) I walked away just feeling like the game design was cheap - no spinners, etc. Just felt stripped down and bare. Was a real turn off. I guess if I attacked it with fresh eyes that impression might change.

#26 7 years ago

There are still a lot of negative reviews being posted for TWD pro, recently and now. The Prem/Le has climbed a lot of spots and is fairly high in the overall ratings over the last year, not so much for the Pro. Can't blame that difference on the code changes from early to now. However, that difference does support the set up sensitivity of the machine discussed below, and would affect pros more (because many people find them on location more). What is even more telling is that the Prem/Le rates somewhere around 50-70 positions higher than the Pro. That is by far the biggest spread between a Pro and Prem/Le that I'm aware of. And that isn't because of early vs late coding either, as both have had the same core code and the same code release schedules.

WRT art, go read the reveal threads. Most people really dug the PF and art. Sure some won't like it but most did and therefore that doesn't account for the low Pro rating, let alone the big difference between the Pro and Prem/Le ratings.

'
Posted much of this before. Stand by it

It has been de rigeur urban legend now on pinside to say TWD sucked early on and only became good with the last code updates. And I'd say it's because many members use it as an excuse to justify why they hated the game at first but now really like it (man, was there a lot of hate for a while, especially from some vocal members here over and over). It is wrong.

In reality, I and many others found TWD to be reasonably coded early on; it was fun and interesting to play. Especially after the first update, which became available a few months after release and was quite significant. Many people could already see how good TWD was. Lyman is great and his coding doesn't just become awesome with the last code updates. The major complaints and TWD hate one finds on pinside back then on the pin was not about poor coding, it was about the cheap drains. Coding got better and better with more updates too, and is now one of the best out there imo. But early code was still good. In fact there are some really cool DMD animations from early code that were dropped in later releases.

IMO, the true reason people here posted lots of TWD hate early on is because they played location machines and they had cheap drains. Other people did not have these issues. Over time it was determined here that TWD is notably sensitive to setup (and some of them more than others too), and without care taken TWD becomes much more of a STDM/outlane drainer from many areas including magnets, slings, pops ramp rejects, etc. In home use this sensitivity is not very significant; on location it can be very significant.

Yes, not having actor voice work was a big misstep in TWD. But the negativity was about more early on, and actor voice work was easily fixable with pinball browser. Many people say that TWD sucked earlier but now is excellent. If it were only about actor voices, people would have posted early on their like for the game play and that pinball browser would fix the sounds for the game.

The reported TWD history is typical revisionist human nature and confirmation/selection bias. And unfortunately, I doubt this TWD urban legend history will change.

#27 7 years ago

I played both, and I went with the Pro over the Premium.

The lightshow was the only thing on the premium I actually wanted.

Play both and decide which one you want. Take all the ratings with a heaping pile of salt.

Some people like some features and some people don't.

It's not as polarizing as the versions of ACDC or Transformers or GOT. It's splitting hairs really. Both are stand alone great games.

#28 7 years ago

I do need to update my ratings based on the new code. Still not a big fan of the game though.

Edit: Done.

#29 7 years ago

I think it has a lot to do with the early code. I did not like the game at all when it first came out, but that changed when a game with updated code landed near me and I got a chance to play it. If you are interested and have the cash, go for it. The ranking system isn't perfect by any means. Just look at the different rankings for the different versions of LOTR and TAF.

#30 7 years ago

Premium/LE is way cooler.

My favorite way to play TWD is to get the prison bomb, get prison ready, and then risk-free work toward well walker and blood bath.

can't do that on the pro.

Rankings are stupid and I'll never understand why anybody cares about them and starts threads complaining about how poorly ranked their faves are.

#31 7 years ago

I wouldn't place too much value on pinside ratings, but there is fair reason for the premium to be above the pro by a good margin (only ~.6 less on the pro despite the list gap, so not even as wide a scoring gap as I would give them myself [ignoring the pinside system]).

I like when machines transform mid-game and have some interaction. The pro doesn't offer much of that in its stock form. For me (on the pro), that mostly comes from the doors opening on the prison (mainly visual) and the magnet interaction. The premium doubles the magnet interaction by adding the well walker, adds a third button for walker bombs that change the gameplay/strategy and adds additional interaction from the player (feels good to slap a button on the top). The lightshow is a huge plus when it comes to being immersed in the game (particularly for Horde [I have yet to see the other wizard modes]). The crossbow never fails to amaze new players and again transforms how the shots work (also uses a 3rd magnet). Being used to the drop target, the pro can feel a bit sloppy when it unnecessarily dumps into the shooter lane (flow loss, etc.). The addition of 2 spinners is a nice plus, though they are one of the features that don't seem as important on this game, but I do like having them. Perhaps my favorite difference on the premium is the BG ramp. It adds a jump scare (particularly with the Gnassel mod) and completely changes how the shot works. It can be easily made from either flipper (or crossbow) when the ramp is up, and the ball return is then very different. Color changing inserts are also significant on this one, helping gameplay more than MET for example.

Not related to gameplay, but the service rails on the premium have been a huge plus as well (tinkering with mods, flippers bats, etc.).

I own a MET pro, and every time I play the premium, I'm glad I own the pro--the extras do nothing for me outside the lightshow. With TWD, it's the opposite by a large margin. It doesn't look like it at a glance compared to GoT or AC/DC, but TWD seems to have one of the most stripped down pro models.

#32 7 years ago

i think the "tougher" ramps are a big turn off for a lot of people.... imho

#33 7 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Premium/LE is way cooler.
My favorite way to play TWD is to get the prison bomb, get prison ready, and then risk-free work toward well walker and blood bath.
can't do that on the pro.
Rankings are stupid and I'll never understand why anybody cares about them and starts threads complaining about how poorly ranked their faves are.

Some people will start pointless threads and posts for any damn reason

#34 7 years ago

Anyone has checked the average / max / min rating difference between Pro and Prem/LE versions of the same Stern game?
Is TWD above that average?

Having never played the LE/Prem version I cannot comment on that. Regarding the Pro, all I can say is that I hated my first experience. It was not due to code, it was due to these cheap drains (from the pops and SDTM from the prison magnets). I was fortunate enough to play one much later which was correctly dialed in; it was a much more enjoyable experience.

TWD also has a relatively slow learning curve. Code is one thing - understanding rules is another. It took me time to understand the game but now I like it (still not in love, but I understand why others can fall in love with this original layout and ruleset).

#35 7 years ago

Ratings aren't accurate because many raters cannot differentiate between observation and opinion.

Also, many assume that everyone is the same kind of pinball player. They are not. Some are just casuals players, some are competition players only, and many are in-between. Their view of the game and hence, the rating is from this point of view. Very few will approach the game with a different perspective (because it requires effort).

TWD is a tougher game for casual shooters. Competitive pin folk will enjoy it much more.

I had one in my house (on loan) for a couple of months.....Did not run out and buy one after it left, but I have nothing overly negative to say about the game.

I am not really a fussy pinball player.

#36 7 years ago

This is why:

50 guys play the machine when it comes out with the first code. They rate it 4.
After a year, 50 more guys play the game with the new awesome code and they rate it 8.
The average for all these ratings will be a 6.
This average is not accurate because the pin runs on the new code now and the first 50 guys will not go and change their rating. (too much work lol).
The fair rating should be an 8 on this case. But it will never be.

Conclusion: Pin ratings are as useful as asking my grandma if the pin is good or not..

#37 7 years ago

Ratings don't matter. A game can have the greatest gameplay and flow of all time, but lose points because of artwork. This also works the other way with a game moving up join the list because of theme or artwork.

#38 7 years ago

What about those giving a pin a 9+ before they have played it or it is released? There are games listed in people's collections that have not shipped. So don't think the ratings are only skewed one way.

Most people are noobs who haven't played half of the games on the top 100 list. But I'm sure they rate that new game they spent $K on way above anything more than a few years old.

#39 7 years ago

Not to be super off topic, but here goes; game like Who Done It? or Big House is rated higher than TWD pro?

#40 7 years ago
Quoted from hassanchop:

This is why:
50 guys play the machine when it comes out with the first code. They rate it 4.
After a year, 50 more guys play the game with the new awesome code and they rate it 8.
The average for all these ratings will be a 6.
This average is not accurate because the pin runs on the new code now and the first 50 guys will not go and change their rating. (too much work lol).
The fair rating should be an 8 on this case. But it will never be.
Conclusion: Pin ratings are as useful as asking my grandma if the pin is good or not..

I think manufacturers are missing the solution... RELEASE PINS WITH COMPLETE CODE!!!!!

Also you are missing the manipulation factor where 25 guys see it rated too low, so they rate it high, interspersed with 25 other guys who see it rated too high and they rate it low. Ahhh, ratings.

#41 7 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Not to be super off topic, but here goes; game like Who Done It? or Big House is rated higher than TWD pro?

I've only played Big House once, but I had a blast on it.

#42 7 years ago
Quoted from DaveH:

I think manufacturers are missing the solution... RELEASE PINS WITH COMPLETE CODE!!!!!

Yeah I don't quite like how the person gets blamed for not coming back and re-rating. Here's something people need to think aboot; if they code is shit I'm NOT COMING BACK to play it. Here's a game I don't need to play again; X-men. IT was so frikkin broken to begin with, it completely turned me off from every playing it again. I had to for leagues and stuff but no thanks.

Quoted from rai:

Not to be super off topic, but here goes; game like Who Done It? or Big House is rated higher than TWD pro?

Why not?

#43 7 years ago

My NIB TWD Pro with the most recent code just came in Fri. And i love it deffanatly up in the rankings in my opinion. 2 thumbs up stern

-3
#44 7 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Not to be super off topic, but here goes; game like Who Done It? or Big House is rated higher than TWD pro?

BigHouse and Who Dunnit are superior games to TWD. Thanks for reminding me to rate them.

#45 7 years ago

I recently picked a pro at the Ohio show. I honestly had no intention of getting one but worked out a nice deal with Scott Weir on his. I don't watch the show so I never had it on my radar. I will wait to rate it until I understand the rule set a little better. That said I am pleasantly surprised with it so far. I don't place a lot of faith in the rating on newer game due to knee jerk reactions of people who are to quick to judge. I do read the comments of others and compare with my one experiences.so give it time.

11
#46 7 years ago

If TWD's ratings are low it comes down to 2 factors, IMO:

-Voices. They're just terrible, hokey, and don't fit the theme. I was playing the game this weekend and the whole time my girlfriend was making fun of the accents and cheesey jokes.

-Poorly conceived toys. The prison door revealing a giant head is not only visually stupid, it's a "change state toy" that doesn't really change. You bash a wall that reveals another wall. If the doors opened to trap and/or release multiballs, that would be cool. The well walker barely flaps back to reveal his "guts". That toy would have benefited from some rotation motion, or at least a coil to "break him in half" when you defeat him.

That being said, the game shoots well and is fun due to Lyman's rules ...but those very obvious audio/visual flaws keep it from being "the whole package" and prob keep the ratings lower.

#47 7 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

If TWD's ratings are low it comes down to 2 factors, IMO:
-Voices. They're just terrible, hokey, and don't fit the theme. I was playing the game this weekend and the whole time my girlfriend was making fun of the accents and cheesey jokes.
-Poorly conceived toys. The prison door revealing a giant head is not only visually stupid, it's a "change state toy" that doesn't really change. You bash a wall that reveals another wall. If the doors opened to trap and/or release multiballs, that would be cool. The well walker barely flaps back to reveal his "guts". That toy would have benefited from some rotation motion at least a coil to "break him in half" when you defeat him.
That being said, the game shoots well and is fun due to Lyman's rules ...but those very obvious audio/visual flaws keep it from being "the whole package" and prob keep the ratings lower.

I believe I read/heard somewhere that the prison was supposed to interact and lock balls. Instead it takes up a lot of space with unequal benefit. Even with all the upgrades on the premium version, it still doesn't compare with many older games in that regard. TWD is still a great game, but I do prefer when a game surprises the player with subways and morphing items that lend a player to expect anything is possible when the same action can get a different response or a ball can disappear and show up somewhere else. With many modern Stern releases, I feel I know 100% where the ball is at all times and it kills a bit of the..."pinball magic?" (that said, I wouldn't change anything about BK, Fathom, etc.--this is just my feeling on certain modern style games).

#48 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Numerous filtering suggestions have been made to make it better

To me the ratings would be more real if you could eliminate two things.

First is the biased posts by fan boys and haters. For those, I would eliminate the top and bottom 15% from every DMD game since the beginning of time. (Given some of the crazy bias around here 25% might be better, but lets just say 15% for now.)

Second is the early software/limited play review. That I would eliminate by putting a one-year expiration date on any review of a game which has been released in the last year. So if you review a game 4 months after it comes out, your review will be on a timer and will be removed 12 months later. You will get an email along with a link from Pinside in order to update and resubmit your review.

#49 7 years ago

Many reviews were probably made on launch code and never updated. For the first several months of its life I thought it was awful and one of Stern's worst. Now I think it's great and one of Stern's best.

#50 7 years ago

I play my Pro, I love my Pro and I couldn't care what the ranking says. I miss my TF Pro over the IM I had and the Tron. In other words everyone as a different taste. I believe it's ranked low because it took Stern an eternity to make it good.

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