I am wondering if the actual color mix at the substrate changes the bond strength, or if the bond strength is uniform no matter the color mix, and is it consistent across a playfield surface, and also from the first pf printed until the last one. Interesting experiments could and do need designed and conducted to figure this out, and I would love it if someone would pay me to design them and determine the issue, but that is highly unlikely due to the fact that I am currently employed and well compensated by a national bank to program for them, and two, that no manufacturer seems to really want to throw any money at the problem right now.

I have yet to plumb the complete depths of down vote hell, but it is safe to say, I have had some major runs... 80 to a 100 downvotes and you are doing ok... but the pros can really rack em up. It just takes something special like posting a picture of someone assaulting a child or a gif of someone making road kill out of a small furry animal... or bitch about playfield chipping in a owner/fanboy thread... all of these seem to work well.

My CGC MB playfield is dimpled AF, but no chipping or artwork loss anywhere... screen printed bitches!! Get with the program.

People keep saying the DTS digital printing is superior in print quality and colors to screen printing, which is somewhat true if you use dot per inch resolution numbers from the DTS printer suppliers. However, I would argue, the actual resolution differences are minimal and not that perceivable if the screen printing professional controlling the process knows what they are doing. Which really gets down to the brass tacks on why Mirco continues to be the supplier of DTS playfields and why JJP and Stern live with the results. Bottom Line baby.... the labor costs of a good screen printing department will always cost way more per playfield than the high school dropout idiot sitting next to a DTS printer loading playfield blanks into it and pressing a button. You can even teach him how blow the dust off the plywood and to change dye sublimation rolls, or refill solvent ink tanks when they run out. So I hope you all like chipping and peeling playfields. I am afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive.

Pinside is a smaller cross section of customers, but still a significant one. If three people report issues, think statistically and you understand as the sample size grows, the overall issue grows exponentially with unreported known issues, customers with issues who don't know it, plus all those machines in distributors inventory that have yet to be unboxed. I like the scratch off analogy, or maybe Cracker Jacks is a better one, a surprise in every box? Some bad, some good, only you don't know which until 200 plays later.

I think it deals with "setting precedents"... if they do it for one machine/customer, people will expect every machine to have the same policy going forward, which is the pile of stench they find themselves in right now. If they EVER replaced a pf or sent an unpopulated one to a customer, and others find out, then the shit hits the fan pretty quick and hard. So this shit storm is NOT abating ANY time soon, because we have already witnessed people talking about all the "fixes" that have been offered and accepted. One could argue "why not me?" and have a pretty good argument if ever in front of a court of law/judge and or jury. Also, no company will ever say it was wrong if it can avoid it, no matter what the courts make them give up in restitution. An AG might argue that they need to make a statement of allocution, but most good legal counsel would try to plea that out of the bargain before they accept the final outcome by upping the restitution offered.

I think if they reversed course on non refundable deposits, their order sheet would collapse on itself and I'm pretty sure thats what they are trying to avoid.

How many times can JJP do this to title after title before the pitchforks and Tiki torches are busted out and people start marching in the streets, carrying their playfields above their heads screaming "JJP will not replace our playfields!" An extreme picture? Yeah, but right now the silence from JJP is deafening.

But I own a 90's Sega... and its not THAT bad, well OK it does have a pile of shit on the playfield, but Mr Hankey has personality, and personality goes a long way.

But haven't playfield issues been around nearly as long as pinball? It just matters more now due to more personal ownership of the products instead of just commercial use. Businesses can write off defects and most would not care, if they are a large enough business. The individual operators (which is a growing trend around here) DO care since most are supplementing their home collections by buying and operating pins that eventually end up at home, or are traded off to others for machines they want for themselves. Nobody wants to trade down to a JJP with playfield issues, or any manufacturer's pins with quality or durability issues. In the past, most manufacturers have had issues at some point or another, and most have handled them the exact same way, quietly, and on a one on one basis. I know I would make you sign a NDA if I gave you a populated playfield as a reparation, which would included a warranty revocation clause if you disclose it to any other customer. I know I have seen some pf's from Stern Deadpools where I went WTF? And ONLY a populated playfield would have satisfied me if I were the owner, but the issue there was not pooling, it was crater city, like moon sized divots that I have never seen before on a Stern. I own a Stern FG with some dimples but nothing like this.

First you have to actually HAVE a good reputation to repair. So far all I have seen is a company thats good at generating FOMO and shitty playfields.

I would sell it back and charge them $1000 extra to wrap and pallet it, then just duct tape it to a pallet, legs on, backbox up and send it on its merry way... what's good for the goose...

Warning: Realism ahead!

When has anyone ever NOT been shrewd and calculating in a profitable business? What JJP is doing is classic Business 101. Handle all product defect issues individually and in private. Do the least amount as possible to satisfy the most vocal customers, and NEVER make an open statement to potential customers that there are any problems, because there are no problems that prevent the machines from performing their intended purpose. Stand on your warranty that says we will repair or replace only when the product can no longer function as intended. This is sound legal advise that they are getting from their counsel, I can guarantee it.

And that is the big rub for everyone who wants a "perfect" playfield. JJP can stand back and lawyer up and do absolutely nothing, and they would be within their rights.

The following is the phrase that just about every lawyer will agree with:

None of the defects that customers are experiencing makes the machine unusable as a coin operated amusement device.

Maybe we need to say that again for emphasis-

None of the defects that customers are experiencing makes the machine unusable as a coin operated amusement device.

I am not a JJP fanboy, don't own any, haven't seen one I can't live without, but I am also a realist, and anyone living in the fantasy world that JJP will suddenly jump up on a soap box, scream "Our playfields suck and we are working on it" is fooling themselves.

If I did own a GnRCE, I would be selling it to another collector if they are willing to buy it at going market rates, or selling it back to JJP if nobody else wants it at MSRP plus shipping. That is just simple Economics 101. It sucks, I would be pissed, but as someone who understands the reality of being in business, I also know what to expect from one, and isn't it surprising, be it Stern, JJP, or you name the manufacturer, they all follow this same playbook when playfield defects crop up? Hell even Bally/Williams back in the day did the same thing when people complained and the results were the same back then, too.

Moral to the story: be loud, be obnoxious, be vocal, get in their face and the face of potential customers. Put up a billboard near the factory, take out an ad in trade magazines, post to social media, start a "Screwed by JJP" fan club. "Only the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is a saying that applies here. A Class action lawsuit is a dead end (see lawyer loving legal statement above) so the court of public opinion is all you have left.

This is a start, but FB is more visible than Twitter, since they push the posts via algorithm. This works way better on bigger companies, we got our LG refrigerator repaired the same day my wife posted a big post to their page saying we were not getting good customer service. If she hadn't posted, we were stuck with a broken refrigerator and about $300 worth of food that was going to go bad. They got a repairman there within 2 hours.

The problem all owners are facing is that no matter what "designation" is placed on the thing, CE, LE, SE, in the end, they are still identified by the definition of what they (JJP) produce, a coin operated amusement device. Until a defect prevents this object from being able to provide entertainment for a reasonable fee, i.e. play a game of pinball, there is no way a lawyer could argue otherwise, so With defects, or not, they are providing a machine that takes in money, and provides a game of pinball. They do not warranty it from having any defects, they warranty it to be able to act as a coin operated amusement device, something it will do even if you stripped the playfield to bare wood.

Not a ding on you, but Your agreement or disagreement with what I said will not matter to the lawyers, they will bring in a machine, with the defects, show it to the judge/jury, push play, play a game, then rest their case. Legally, providing a machine, no matter what it does or doesn't do, if it plays a game for money inserted, JJP is off the major hook, and they will say the defects are minor blemishes to be expected after playing on it for any amount of time, and anyone bringing a lawsuit against them will find out quite early on how to loose even more money to JJP In lawyers fees while chasing this white rabbit down a hole. This is not about customer satisfaction, this is about legal liability, and they have held up their end of the bargain, as far as they are concerned, it's just not the way the angry mob wanted this to play out.

But what is the actual legal recourse of a finding for the owner of the machine? Another machine? Not likely. Your money back plus lawyers fees? Not likely. What are the actual damages that can be recovered? By offering a COMPLETE buy back, JJP is offering the ultimate recourse in most legal arenas. You are made completely whole, no lost money at all. Perceived lost value is of no consequence, even if it's market value is greater than the paid cost, the courts don't give a crap about that. You paid $10k plus shipping, you got a defective product, you sell it back for $10k plus shipping. You are whole in the eyes of the law. And no, they will not cover lawyers fees, nor would you likely recover any because they offered to make you whole (a satisfactory outcome to the courts) yet you refused the deal, therefore you are without recourse, or more commonly known as shit outta luck. This has played out the same way in so many situations in the past for other "artisan" labeled products, like high end guitars, collectors watches, anything where the value is subjective based on quality of the goods provided. The courts will always find for the company if they at anytime after the sale have offered to make the customer whole by refunding their entire purchase price, including shipping. It sucks but its what will happen here.

The legal angle is what is in play here. That they offered a buy back, wether you take it or not, if it covers every dime you spent on acquiring the product, in the eyes of the law, the customer is made whole and the issue is closed. If this is unsatisfactory to the buyer, JJP can tell them pack sand, we offered to make you whole, you refused, your legal recourse is exhausted. It's really that simple.

This is the best legal course of action by JJP, especially on a very desired title, because it closes every legal challenge that could be brought against them, and those who really want to keep the game, defects included, have no actionable path if they decline their offer. So keep the game and gripe, or sell it back and try again, but it's still a pf lottery. Or sell it to the highest bidder, make a little cash, and move on. The one thing that is not going to happen is keeping the game and have JJP offer you anything more than a buy back, they do not want to sell you a blank pf that may have defects as well, so their only legal dodge is buy backs.

But I believe if they buy back a product, it can no longer be sold as new, it must be listed as refurbished if they resell it, so get your calls in to your distributors and look out for them to quietly sell the refurbs to distributors who know people who want a CE, but are willing to accept the defects and the limited or non-existent warranty, and maybe pay less than MSRP for the chance.

Why not fill the holes with epoxy and redrill? Why all the insert, 3d printed spacer drama?

Didn't think using glue and a drill was rocket science, but ok. But I'm guessing there are a few out there who do and would.

I would think if Mirco wanted to pass the buck literally to JJP, they would take a playfield, bolt a bunch of posts and rubbers all over it and tighten all the posts from loose to over tight and mark each one with the torque applied and then set up a routine to randomly launch and flip balls using an old gottlieb auto flipper switches. Now see which posts pool and chip, and determine the exact torque requirements and then make sure JJP is aware of max torque setting. Done.

Didn't Bally/Williams just pound the t-nuts in with a mallet, or did they countersink the t-nut hole? I always thought the t-nut was hammered into the undersized hole, leaving the narrow hole on the artwork side to help hold the post from displacement?

You do know this is literally where the term CON MAN comes from? I'm just a innocent bystander here, I have never owned a JJP, but I have played a ton. As an interested hobbyist of pinball, I have to say right now the amount of, and the quality of the shilling going on in JJP's favor rises to the Con Man level of enthusiasm. Given I own a Williams, a Sega/DE, a Gottlieb, a Stern and a CGC, if I was trying to steer someone clear of any manufacturer, right now my money would be on JJP, even though I thought JJPotC was one of the best modern pinball designs and rulesets I have played to date- the missing actor assets and mechgate controversy's be damned. 4 machines in a row with pf issues is no longer an isolated event, its a god damn trend, and it ain't in any direction but bad for JJP. I'm Never buying one NIB since I'm not one to gamble with $9-$10K like Iceman, who, god love him and the others buying and drinking unlimited amounts of the koolaid, are actually part of the reason JJP hasn't changed.

I heard Sesame Street, Mr Rodgers, and Electric Company, selling as a three pack...

My take on this comes from Radio Shack's TRS80 computer that they sold in 1977. I put $100 dollars down and got on the waiting list. This also got me on the TRS80 customer monthly newsletter mailing list. So I was waiting for about 5 months, and every month I got the monthly customer newsletter with an article on how you can repair your computer without having to take it back to Radio Shack. At the end of 5 months of newsletters, I already had a major list of preventative or corrective actions I was going to have to make after taking it out of the box, even before I started to use it. That was enough for me, I went and got my deposit back and cancelled the order. If I had a JJP GnR on order and could get my deposit back, or put toward another title? Damn straight I would. I don't buy $10k toys that require a shop job right out of the box. That is just f'ed -the fuck- upped.

How about Tommy mode in Tommy? Can't see the ball then... I guess that machine sucked too?

Oh, and faulty playfields suck just to stay on topic.

The first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club... would one of you guys tap out already? Or is this Coke v.s Pepsi argument going to just keep raging on in 5 different threads?

What you would get is a video of someone meeting you at the door, asking who your distributor was, and tell you to take it up with them. Actual ownership of the pin travels through a distributor, so as to protect the manufacturer. Unless you bought it direct from JJP, they will not even talk to you at the factory. And now the real reason for the distributor model becomes perfectly clear.

At Expo this year, I think I am going to wear a tie dye shirt with a big "Jersey Junk Playfields" on the front and "Professional Playfield Swapper" on the back, of course using their NJ outline logo bitch slapped to fit. Now that should get some kind of reaction, if not explicitly asked by Rob B. to kindly exit the venue.

No, I'm looking for work... I can swap a playfield and there may be people who are in need of the service... and it makes a statement that I agree with, which is JJP needs to step up their playfield game.

Um... have you been reading these threads? You're not the first with this fever dream...

I have never liked Jack, I always thought he looked like a patsy for the Jersey mob.

That being said, his response on owners damaging their own machines...

And just how does one accomplish this and with what intent? I play my machine and it "damages" it while I play? If anything, he has undermined his own product by saying something so stupid.

"Buy a JJP machine, because when you play, your gonna pay!" And not just once, but twice so throw me an extra $500 and maybe I give you a blank pf to make your nutsack hurt a little bit less after I have done a Mexican hat dance all over it?

I have resisted jumping down any JJP rabbit holes and now am I likely to never after I heard his latest line of BS. What a tool.

Interview on Pinball News podcast around 22:40
https://www.podbean.com/media/share/dir-p6mbh-f7d2079?utm_campaign=w_share_ep&utm_medium=dlink&utm_source=w_share