(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

2 years ago


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Post #1634 Observations & insight on JJP/Mirco playfield pooling issue Posted by AMSNL (2 years ago)

Post #1649 Uncut playfield photos Posted by AMSNL (2 years ago)

Post #1660 Thin clear coat issues Posted by AMSNL (2 years ago)


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#297 2 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I delayed my LE order this morning with my distrubtor and expressed any concerns. These games cost too much money for these types of issues to be occurring. I've bought all but one JJP release, love their games, but enough is enough.
JJP and or Mirco need to resolve this issue asap. Customers want GNR's but GNR's made with quality playfields.

Agreed - I am on the sidelines also with any new JJP - they have had far too long to fix the issues
and I had been waiting so long for a JJP to come out with a game like GnR that I really wanted to buy ... oh well

#316 2 years ago
Quoted from meSz:

I would think even Chris would agree he’s not making a big difference. .

LOL - you obviously have not listened to him enough

#390 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I’m thinking maybe Bader can’t handle the volume and/or JJP has a contract with Mirco?
Mirco breached the contract?
And Bader made the early crap Woz pf’s. I have one
Either way JJP should find another option
Maybe someone here can start at pf manufacturing company

We are not talking rocket science
CNC Cut Plywood - Printed - Clear Coated
There has got to be another company in the US that is not in the pinball business that can do this - Furniture maker, sign company, etc...

#396 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Hammering in the inserts is an important part of it too.
For all the Mirco faults, I haven't heard any complaints on inserts of ghosting, crazing, etc.

I thought that was done at JJP

#411 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Doing that would shatter the clear coat, AFAIK the inserts are done first, then art, then clear.

ok, so not sure that would be a difficult skill for the new PF manufacturer to figure out

#565 2 years ago
Quoted from Captchaos:

Spoke to a rep at JJP on Thursday about my POTC CE replacement playfield. He mentioned that play fields will not be replaced on machines made after POTC.

I'm out!

#575 2 years ago

To me - how fun their games are is irrelevant if the quality is shit - too many other fun games to buy that won't fall apart & my life will not be incomplete without a GnR

#610 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

As far as that goes I still haven’t heard anyone come up with a credible guesstimate of what the extent of the problem is? 10%? 80%?

If it's closer to the 10% - JJP should quickly communicate with those customers and take care of them so the mob cools down - but it seems that they have yet to satisfactorily do that this which makes me think its much higher than that.

I always say every business is in the exact same business - whether you sell cars, pinball machines, food or give financial advice - the business is customer service

#613 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I’m thinking JJP doing what Stern did with GB and deal with it on a case by case basis. Why would they handle it any other way?

I mostly agree, but my point being, if it's only around 10% and they were doing a good job of handling it on a case by case basis - the mob would not be in an uproar.
But from what I have read, nobody with issues has reported a satisfactory response from JJP

#617 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It took Stern a long time to address the issue and figure out how widespread the issue was and what to do about it.
I’m sure JJP will deal with it. How many people have reported issues? I don’t know. I’ve seen a handful? People are freaking out that the same thing MIGHT happen to their game, therefore replace them all. Mob is unrealistic

To be fair, this issue goes back to Pirates and then Wonka - so JJP has also had a long time to deal with it
If it is only a small minority of people with issues, than JJP should of communicate quickly and clearly with these few individuals that they will be taken care of. My guess is it's more widespread than that, hence the lack of action. Lucky for me, I don't have a horse in the race, except that I did want to buy a GNR LE so I have been watching closely to see how JJP handles this... so far I am not impressed.

#642 2 years ago
Quoted from insight75:

I'm going to start making playfields and use a tempered glass coating instead of clear coat..... But seriously, I know Mirco posts here....why nothing on this matter?

Really .... you actually don't know why.

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#705 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My guess is JJP has been looking for another play field manufacturer for a while with no luck. They clearly know this is an issue, but aside from doing it themselves or paying a higher price per unit their stuck with Mirco.

To me - the advantage of finding a domestic manufacturer & paying a higher price seems obvious. This is not rocket science, there has got to be another company in the US that can CNC plywood, print it, add inserts, and clear coat it. My guess is a large sign company could start doing this without much investment.

With a domestic based PF company, JJP can oversee quality much easier.

#707 2 years ago
Quoted from EricHadley:If enough of you grow some balls and sell them back JJP will fix the issue. Keep going at the rate you are and ya’ll are fucked. I’m out of any JJP pins ever. New or used, DONE. Enjoy

Never happen, people are trying to actually pay to get new PF's
What other product do you buy defective where you offer the company money to fix it?
If I had a CE, I would sell it back to them in a heartbeat, or to another collector if they were insane enough to pay me more than it cost me with the defective PF

#709 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Either of you “have the balls” to give up the $5k profit you can make selling your CE in order to make a point to JJP?

I don't own a CE (tried to get one, and then was going to get an LE before the issues surfaced)
but if I had one, I 100% would sell it back to JJP or to another collector if they were willing to pay more

selling it back to JJP won't make a point to them at all
At this junction, they are either fully aware they have an issue that 100% needs to be fixed going forward, or they just don't care.
A few people selling machines back to them won't make a difference.

#744 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

None of the defects that customers are experiencing makes the machine unusable as a coin operated amusement device.

What about those that bought a CE = Collector's Edition - would it still be considered Collector's Quality with the defects?

#753 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The problem all owners are facing is that no matter what "designation" is placed on the thing, CE, LE, SE, in the end, they are still identified by the definition of what they (JJP) produce, a coin operated amusement device. Until a defect prevents this object from being able to provide entertainment for a reasonable fee, i.e. play a game of pinball, there is no way a lawyer could argue otherwise, so With defects, or not, they are providing a machine that takes in money, and provides a game of pinball. They do not warranty it from having any defects, they warranty it to be able to act as a coin operated amusement device, something it will do even if you stripped the playfield to bare wood.

exactly why I will not be a buyer

15
#864 2 years ago

I am out on any future JJP title until they have a track record of quality!

#868 2 years ago
Quoted from Skyemont:

You will be out forever!

so be it, I have zero desire to deal with those sort of PF issues.

2 weeks later
10
#1046 2 years ago
Quoted from Damonator:

Inconceivable!
[quoted image]

The difference with the auto industry and the brands with poor quality is - you drive you car back to the dealer and they fix it for free under a warranty

#1170 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I actually play my games and don’t worry about all the drama. .

Luv ya Ice, but you sure post and defend JJP a lot for someone that doesn't worry about all the drama

2 weeks later
#1291 2 years ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Even if they gave you 50% off would it be worth it with a crap playfield, the main component of any pinball machine???

For a 50% discount I could deal with a chipping PF

1 week later
#1370 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

I don't want all that BS on my game though. Thats just an ugly band aid covering up a festering hatchet wound.

I sort of agree
Glad they got it fixed, but they should be able to do it without the washers.
Maybe the washers are just extra insurance, as they probably have a lot of anxiety at this point about future issues

#1515 2 years ago
Quoted from romulusx:

At this juncture it’s just us hoping,but I have a feeling something will be announced soon!
This last game was so good and so much work put into it I can’t imagine they won’t avoid this with the Toy Story.I can’t wait to hear the child game trolling from the Stern trolls!

Really doubt at this point there will ever be an official announcement about PF's

20
#1552 2 years ago
Quoted from sevenrites:

When I’m lucky to afford things I want, such as a new car, I wouldn’t go and flame the manufacturer for the clear coat they used from whatever vendor they used the first time I drive it and a stone kicks up and chips it. Shit happens.
Let’s be honest. People are starving and dying and living in poverty but some people are so arrogant to that fact that they bitch about problems on first run production models of new products the exclusive minority they belong to can afford. In a way, I get it. But really, where do your priorities fall in the grand scheme of things and what are YOU doing to be a positive influence on society and the disadvantaged when you can afford such luxuries and not be willing to assume the risk that comes with such extravagant purchases?
Yeah, you’re bent you spent 10k on a game that won many awards but has some flaws, most of which seem to be from pre-June 2021 builds. How much have you donated to your community or kids or victims of domestic violence? If it’s 0, then go cry to the Rockefeller’s and check yourselves.
Those who feel privileged and entitled will downvote away, I don’t give a damn about your feelings if you fall into the stereotype I’ve articulated above.

This post leaves me so confused. Because there is suffering in the world - you can't complain about quality on products?
Did you ever think that just maybe, possibly us "rich folks" are also major donors to charities that help society. And also, maybe we have worked our asses off and made sacrifices to create businesses that employ others and better their lives?

You yourself sir are so very ignorant and blinded by your beliefs ...
Enjoy your 17 pinball machines

#1557 2 years ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

I can only speak for myself so here it goes .There’s a 90 day warranty .I started to try to contact the week prior to this deadline and pics sent out to distro before that .There is a obvious problem with a batch or 2 of these PF’s everyone knows it and shit happens no biggie .I will only accept a populated PF swap as a result .I wouldn’t even care if it took a year ,at least with a agreement I can plug the machine in and play it with no worries .I’m sure this will get done as large washers will not cover the area that is chipped in 2 of the areas .Even if they did cover to me would be unacceptable as I see chips as just the starting point and God forbid trying to sell it at any time with that .I really like JJP and they’re games .I plan on being a customer again and again as my time in this hobby moves forward .If for some odd reason this doesn’t work out I can fight with the best of them .I will not go quietly lmao.Cheers to this working out and avoiding drama .It’s honestly as simple as that .

Good Luck, but just incase - here you go, I think you will need them

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3 weeks later
12
#1701 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I was willing and planning to buy a playfield at the full $1100 price, so to me this is a generous offer in compromise..

I just can't understand the logic .... Please help me understand.
I can understand you being ok with it, but to call it generous? JJP gets off unscathed
The product had defects out of the box for a lot of people and you have to pay to buy a replacement?
Please tell me what other consumer product company operates like this?

At the very least they should refund your money spent on the new PF if you send the old one back (which they should pay the shipping for) - which is still absurd but better than current offer

18
#1714 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

It's simple. I control the things I can. Playfield damage is something that can be rectified with a new playfield so I went ahead and planned on buying one.
Problem out of mind.
Then this offer came out which reduced the price by 50% which is nothing but great news to me.

Would love to have all my customers exactly like you - what a wet dream being able to charge customers for our issues and defects and even have them happy about it. Damm, I need some of the pills you are taking.

#1724 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I hear you - I get your point, I do.
For me this was worth a small spend to push the issue out of mind and keep having fun with my machine.
And speaking of having fun with the machine, PinMonk's fan kit for GNR is a (literal) game-changer! The flippers remain robust for hours of play. Recommended!

And I understand your point of view,
I would do the same, only difference is I would not call it generous and be happy about it

#1734 2 years ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

How do you know?

How do you know?
For the record, in my phone call with Jack on Thursday September 5th, 2019 Jack personally told me the playfield cost was $550. Do whatever you want with that info.

Most likely that is complete cost including shipping and duty to the US

#1735 2 years ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

I’m in the middle on this. For machines with less than 500 plays or 1 year (whatever comes first) JJP should cover a new Playfield for any damage period minus minor dimples to a certain extent. After that, $500 is a reasonable offer if you plan of keeping the pin. I think the biggest issue right now is not even the Playfield issues, it’s JJP

That may be a stretch, but at the very least cover PF's that are F'd right out of the box

2 weeks later
28
#1748 2 years ago

Don't see how the guys that are basically ignoring the issues and playing their game is relevant to the PF quality discussion.
Sure, it's great that you are enjoying and playing while band-aiding the issue and ignoring - more power to you!
I get it, the game is fun! I am sure I would be doing the same thing as JJP has really left you with no other choice.
But it's still a shitty PF on a $10,000 toy that should not be chipping and pooling no matter how strong your powers of overlooking are.
I wanted a GNR and bailed due to the issues and lack of support. With all the great machines coming out and a collection I love, I don't feel like I am missing out at all. It's really difficult to understand the excuses some people make and concessions they accept on something they paid 10 grand for when there are other companies out there with fun machines and better quality and support.

#1755 2 years ago
Quoted from screaminr:

This game is a unicorn .
Even future jjp games won't compare to this .
1. Main reason is because Slash wanted this game made and put everything into it . When else would you get Gibson and Fender on the same game , along with a Paul McCartney song and all the AV from their current concert tour .
There was no asset they didn't have access to .
2 . Because of covid they had an extra year to polish all the code , the rules , animations and light shows .
3 . Eric Meunier designed an awesome game with the use of guitar necks , drumsticks , high hats and incorporated all sorts of musical features into rock and roll pin with a great layout .
4 . Jean - Paul de Win is the best in the world at animating pinball games .
So if you like the theme , the rules , the layout , take some preemptive steps and enjoy the game .
You won't see another one like it for a long , long time , if ever .

Understood, like I said - I get it, the game is fun.
But for me the fun factor doesn't out weigh the PF lottery you have to enter for $10 grand
Down the line if JJP can consistently improve Quality and Customer service, I will give it a consideration - until they have the track record, I am out

#1789 2 years ago
Quoted from TommyMc:

I received a email from Jen at JJP last week telling me my game was almost ready to ship. I cancelled my order telling them that was because of the playfield issues and warranty changes. Their response? Silence not a word!

20
#1816 2 years ago
Quoted from HEAD_boss_HOG:

I guess what I am emphasizing is that these very minor defects in production don't detract from the enjoyment and satisfaction of owning the game.
.....
So, we all agree that JJP should do better, and make things right. But we also should agree that a small PF defect does not take away from the enjoyment of the game, and it's much healthier to focus on what is GREAT and enjoyable instead of zeroing in on a PF clearcoat pooling and a 1mm chip in some art which doesn't affect the gameplay.

It would 100% affect my ownership enjoyment, that's why I won't be buying a JJP in the future
I understand others don't care as much, but for me it matters on a $10,000 pin.
Since the PF is a major component that can't easily be swapped out, I consider it slightly more than a very minor small defect/issue.

I am focusing on the other companies that offer higher quality and better customer service

19
#1868 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

If you think your rants will stop sales, you’re wrong.

They already have .....
Maybe not his rant specifically, but the posting of issues on this forum directly stopped me from buying a GNR

17
#1870 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Well sure. It will stop some sales.
Me, I'm on the list for JJP7 CE already.

JJP is hoping the large majority of their customers are like you and don't give 2 shits about quality,
they seem to base their business model on it

I wish I had the customer base that JJP has.
Would be great to be able to send out poor quality products, have customers send me more money to pay for "the fix", and be knocking at my door to buy the next thing. I mean, can you ask for anything better? Really, my hats off to JJP. While every other company on the planet is trying their best to produce quality products, and fixing/replacing defective ones at their cost - JJP has figured out the magic formula. Bravo

#1875 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I like playing the games, simple as that. They are not museum pieces for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Honestly, they are not for me either - but I do like them to look nice and try and take care of them.
I don't obsess over dimples and other minor imperfections, but I just don't want to have to look at and deal with a chipping peeling playfield if I don't have to. And, I do not have to when there are other higher quality products that will make me just as happy.
Also the poor customer service others are reporting is a real turn off, I would rather give my money to a company like Spooky

End of the day, this thread is important to highlight the issues JJP has with it's products and customer service so others know what they are getting into.
Those that are aware and don't care - play and enjoy - but I will not be a customer.

#1880 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

For me, an extra $500 and a fun (to me) project to refresh it later is acceptable.

Now I know you are certifiable

Curious, what do you do when the $500 replacement PF starts pooling, peeling, and chipping - buy another?

#1898 2 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

What I see is a lack of adhesion & problems with the finish clear not hardening correctly. Mirco seems to be having some problems with his process. Maybe it is the Human portion of his production, & not the robots. He has shown the robots doing, cnc, inserting the lenses, & finish clear videos. It would be nice if he came out & explained how some playfields are bad.

From everything I have seen and read/watched from experts - One of the big issues is the wood doesn't absorb the ink with the current printing process like it did when PF's where screen printed. If the ink is not attaching to the PF it, doesn't mater what you do with the clear on top of it.

#1901 2 years ago
Quoted from Dr-pin:

Cant be the whole truth, since there are videos with plastic flaking under the aprons where it should adere to bare wood.
As it works now mirco clear is just a terribad pf-protector sloppy glued on.

I agree, that's why I said "One Of the big issues"

#1919 2 years ago
Quoted from Kkoss24:

Mines been sitting for 6 weeks unplugged .I think I’m getting to it monday .I got mod couples mylar rings and “the kit” .Need rubbers replaced also I’d advise changing those as well when you “bulletproof” yours .Good luck and get on the PF list .It’s like a special “thanks” from JJP for buying their products .I feel loved and honored to be on it

Has JJP provided any assurance that the replacement PF's are any better?

#1938 2 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Widespread reports of playfield issues appear to have stopped for the past couple of months. I think I've seen 1 July build mentioned here with reported pooling (under a rail after it was removed) but nothing in comparison to the dozens of reports coming from previous run builds. Reports of issues have also stopped on the JJP Fans Facebook group, there were a ton of reports of playfield issues being reported earlier in the year. The latest July and going forward builds have a different combination of posts and washers, who knows if the actual playfields are different.
One interesting thing I noticed on my July build LE is that the playfield manufactured date isn't stamped anywhere on the playfield, just a random combination of letters and numbers.

I hope this isn't the case but wonder if installed washers are just covering the issues, and it will take longer for the pooling to spread beyond them and owners to notice

#1961 2 years ago
Quoted from Vespula:

Translation: life is short, have fun. Wisdom increases as your time left decreases. Try to learn from the old folks and keep things in perspective. Share truth that helps. Live and let live . Minimize regrets. Don't sweat the small stuff.... Peace, love, and.... pinball.

All true... but also my tolerance for aggravation, stupidity, poor quality shit decreases as I age ... henceforth my avoidance of buying JJP games

1 week later
#1969 2 years ago
Quoted from DerGoetz:

Yes, let's keep putting bandaids on the cancer that is those playfields

yup - new buyers have no room to complain

#1988 2 years ago
Quoted from Xelz:

If Jack believes that playfield chipping is the customer's fault, then he wouldn't see a reason to drop Mirco.

Except I highly doubt Jack is making any decisions like that anymore since he "sold" the company

#2003 2 years ago
Quoted from jester523:

Yeah, honestly I don't see why anyone would want to shit on your parade. My game has some pooling, and it does upset me, but at the end of the day it has 2500 games of enjoyment on it. I do think JJP is handling it like shit though.

I agree, It all depends on your tolerance level
Some people can buy and play and not give 2 shits - more power to them!
For me, the fun doesn't outweigh having to look at that crap every time I play - especially with the availability of other great games without PF issues

and I am always open to buying a used game I can inspect down the line if I really want one that bad

11
#2021 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

I'm guessing this is all driven by resale value? I'm not knocking you, but I think the root cause of everyone's angst over these playfield issues comes down to dollars and cents.

Could not care any less about resale value

What I care about is my sanity - and looking at a pooling, peeling, cracking PF every time I go to play the game would drive me nuts
I am not OCD but just can't deal with a PF falling apart with ZERO manufacturer support

#2051 2 years ago
Quoted from Vespula:

Every time... Falling apart... My Sanity.... Drive me nuts... Can't deal....
But...
I'm not ocd..
Over exaggeration, yes, drama queen, a bit maybe.
The reality is that it's completely manageable for most, but for you, sir, you can't see that so this pin is definitely NOT for you. Glad you know it. Props for that.

Possibly a bit of an over exaggeration, but I am not OCD about my machines
I have dimpling that doesn't bother me at all
a few scratches and nicks, who cares
couple of lights that don't work, so what
etc....

Just don't want a machine with an obvious manufacturer defect that they will not fix nor support - and their great fix is to sell you a new PF that most people will never use - No Thanks!

#2058 2 years ago
Quoted from dapperdan24:

... would it just be the same crapshoot that quality could be an issue?

That's the $11,000 question without a solid answer from JJP

#2143 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Its absolutely baffling to me that they didn't implement this seemingly proven and simple fix right after these issues popped up shortly after the game was released. Even if you consider it a band aid, its infinitely better than adding washers everywhere!

Since they import the PF's,
My guess is they already had a boat load in stock once they realized there was an issue

#2152 2 years ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

Thats still no excuse. Manufacturing flaw. Take em back, sand em down, and reprint them with the art removed around the posts. Stern has stated that they do this with flawed playfields, so we know its possible. Also, did they send over every playfield they're ever going to make in the first batch? It sounds like that is false too, so why hasn't it changed on newer runs?

Not making an excuse, giving you a reason possibly why

Stern does it in house - Big difference from importing them from Germany

Freight is a huge cost, probably need to bring in a container full at a time
Lot of issues trying to export PF's back to Germany for a fix and reimport.
If it were my company, I would find someone stateside to fix the PF's and find a new stateside source going forward

#2163 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

"We" .... I highly doubt you've spent anything on JJP games

I have not either but I wish they would improve their quality and make me confident enough to buy one becuase I would like to do so

#2214 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Honestly, I think these playfields come to the factory looking good and leave the factory looking good. I assume JJP, behind the scenes is trying to work it out... and it appears they are making changes that are working, as there are far fewer issues. At least it seems that way.
Remember, things didn't work out so well with Bader and WOZ... total mystery as to why.
What I can't explain is why they have removed all warranty coverage of the playfield, itself.
That said, the facts are on the table. People that don't want to look at pooling (and people that are concerned they aren't getting value for their money) are under zero obligation to buy. And, by the same stroke, people that just want to play a game and don't assign alot of weight to pooling/chipping, are free to buy away.
As for Mirco and JJP... there are a lot of rumors that fly around with the "heard it from someone that knows" tag. I'd really like to hear it, on the record, from someone at the company.

How are they trying to work it out, covering the issues with washers so you can't see the defects?
This is exactly why they have removed all warranty coverage of the playfield - incase you look under the washers.
Just don't look behind the curtain and the illusion holds

#2233 2 years ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Welcome to the JJP apologist club. We’ll screw you over big time and you’ll endlessly apologize and make up excuses for us so we don’t ever need to fix anything club. Best business ever! Our customers pay through the nose and then when we (JJP) deliver crap, we know they’ll endlessly make up reasons why we make crap and pass the buck club. And those that don’t like it, we’ll just label them trolls or haters.

And then here at JJP, we give you the "privilege" to give us more money and buy a new playfield to replace the crappy one we put in your machine without any warranty or guarantee that the new one will be any better

#2241 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

"People like you." I've seen zero evidence that they don't care about making a quality product.

I am 100% positive they care about their product quality - I just have not seen that care translate into a solution to fix their PF issues and back up their customers they shipped defective product to.

It's sad, becuase I really would like to buy one of their games

#2246 2 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Like I said, I agree they should work with paying customers that purchased prior to the change to their warranty. And it totally sucks that some customers have chipping art. No disagreements.
Sounds like you are making the right choice not to buy (for you) – bummer, because life is short. These pinball decisions aren't life or death - it's about having a sliver of fun sprinkled into real life. I say: go have some fun!

I agree, I am making the right choice
Lost out on nothing, as my pinball dollars went towards other really fun machines with solid PF's and I am having lots of fun with them

#2263 2 years ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

My distro honestly told me today. Chips, pooling, flaking, art lifting and you are on your own zero will be done about it. Then asked would you like your money back or machine delivered?
At least it up front now buyer beware.

I was told something similar .... and I passed

1 week later
#2310 2 years ago
Quoted from EricHadley:

No. Mine is good. It’s not a matter of time. It’s fine. It’s great. No dimpling. No Pooling. I’ve played a ton of games on it. It’s fine.

That's good news, I hope it stays good for you and you don't have future problems.
Super glad they solved the pooling issue and while at it also the dimpling issues.
Also, curious what amount is a ton of games - just for my perspective

1 week later
#2366 2 years ago
Quoted from hiker2099:

I have an AIQ (Stern) and WE (JJP). I know playfields have been an issue but JJP all around seems to be higher quality product by far. I love them both.

It may seem like it is, but I would argue they are not

#2370 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

Some design choices in the control electronic of my DialedIn LE really baffles me. Compared to Stern or even Pinball Brothers (I just looked at the design of the Alien remake), I would on contrary argue that it's not designed for longevity, at least this portion.
If it were, they would not have used a consumer type PC motherboard with a consumer type PC graphics board, plugged in a vertical position. It will fail eventually. And no you just can't change the motherboard and the graphics board, the embedded Linux distribution is tied to the HW, so unless JJP provides SW maintenance to allow for support of newer motherboard and graphics board, or somebody hack their distribution, you will be toast if the motherboard dies (not to mention they likely have a custom sbios)

I tend to agree - but don't think may others do
JJP threw a PC in there
Stern has boards designed for a pinball machine

#2372 2 years ago
Quoted from PinFever:

which is why jjp are Better Quality

yup ... sure

#2397 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Having a full PC allows us to do a lot more than we could otherwise.

Can you elaborate on that?
Stern's hardware doesn't seem to restrict them

#2402 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

Sorry, not oblivious to me & wasn't trying to set up a battle.
I appreciate your response

#2409 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

I don't intend to start a debate on whether a PC is suitable for a pinball machine. I understand the pros and cons of each architecture (disclaimer: my work is specifically on embedded ARM device, so I'm quite knowledgeable).
But I can build a three display output (and more) ARM based system with equivalent graphics capabilities for the purpose of a pinball machine in a 30W enveloppe with an operating lifetime under full load of 5 years, 24/7. And I can add some additionnal capabilities on top of it, image processing being one of them, but not only. That's kind of the whole reason why Apple is using ARM extensively, including in their Macbook line and ditched x86.
x86 brings is essentially ease of development and reduced engineering cost (especially custom motherboard requirement as is the case for Spike 2). As of today, from the pure capability standpoint in a pinball machine, there is little rationale to put a PC, but from the cost of development there definitely is (that, plus the fact that when DialedIn was released, indeed embedded device capabilities were far lower than where they are today).
ARM platform bring better integration, lower power consumption, longer operating lifetime. And for that matter, Stern Spike 2 architecture allows them to have as many display as they want conceptually, so DialedIn 3 screens setup is not something they would not be able to replicate easily should they want to. But engineering cost is way higher. It's a 50k dollars figure at a minimum to build a fully integrated ARM based custom system. Stern Spike 2 development likely costed way more than that, since they built a whole architecture around it (node, communication bus, etc).
when Pinball Brothers selected a PC for their Alien remake, the whole reasoning was likely engineering cost (at the expense of BOM cost though, from what I could see on their system architecture it's not exactly cheap)
So bottom line using a PC is perfectly legitimate, even if not optimal (my DialedIn is NOISY compared to Spike 2 next to it) in my opinion, but can be justified by lower engineering cost.
What I do challenge however is the use of a "consumer" type motherboard and graphics board.
Consumer products are designed with ONE directive: cost. They need to achieve the minimum warranty required legally at the lowest cost, and that's absolutely it (except for gaming motherboard). Which means it's super unlikely it will last for 20y, at least not all of them.
Using a graphics board with a regular PCI-express slot in a mechanically constrained environment, especially with regards to shock and vibration, is really really not a good idea (as we have seen with users reporting that the card had unplugged itself from it's slot). There are industry grade standards to adress precisely this type of concern (MXM being one of them, but not only).
And lastly: supply of these consumer parts do not last forever, whereas in embedded (even in PC space) it is traditionnal to supply components for 5 years at least, 10 years more often than not.
When these parts are not available anymore, should the motherboard or graphics board fail, you're toasted. And speaking of which, I could actually not find replacement boards on JJP website itself. You can't find them on Marco either (at least I couldn't).
One will argue that you could find some on ebay since it's a consumer product, true enough, but for how long ? Especially the graphics board, which is not exactly a standard model (it's a low profile board). WPC machines have been around for more than 20y, and you can still find boards for them. People have been designing replacement CPU board that work out of the box.
It's a different story with a tightly coupled SW/HW as is the case here
I appreciate the fact that JJP is bringing new capabilities to their released machine (Scorbit being one of them), as do many other JJP owners (I have a DialedIn by the way), but so far I have not seen a company commitment to upgrade the BSP (stands for "Board Support Package", ie the combination of BIOS, kernel and filesystem that make the whole thing work) to support different type of HW (especially graphics). And no it's very very unlikely it will work out of the box (try using JJP image on a brand new motherboard with a brand new AMD graphics board see if it works). I tried in a VM, could boot to the main bootloader, but no further.
Maybe some will step in and hack the BSP to make it work on alternate HW, but at the cost of these machines, shouldn't this be the supplier responsibility ?
If JJP state that they can (and will) add support for new motherboard/graphics board, then they will be one step closer to true customer care: allowing the customer to replace parts at a later time with different type of HW. It's a HW maintenance dream. But it has an engineering cost to JJP, with little to no return (except customer satisfaction).
True enough, part availability from Stern is also a concern (and cost !), but at least we have a solution for the foreseeable future. I can buy a Spike 2 board on Marco or Stern 2 easily. I do agree the same question will be raised in 10y.
Anyway, that was a rather long post to state my point of view
Constructive comments welcome, please let's avoid a flame war.
Regards

What I was try to get at but you made the point millions times better than I could of.
Great Post!

3 months later
#2474 2 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

After the last batch of fixes starting with June / July builds it seems that all reports of pooling and chipping stopped. It's been 6+ months since then so something is working. No reports either from the last Wonka batch. That doesn't mean that previous owners with issues were treated right, they were not IMO and deserved at least a free replacement playfield for severe cases ($12,500 CE buyers especially!).

Any confirmation that the process has been changed and the issue has actually been fixed or are they still just covering with washers?

10
#2481 2 years ago
Quoted from MaxIsDead:

Mine is still good and I do enjoy the game. Why do you support their garbage quality. They should replace your playfield if its subpar.

please don't get him started

#2487 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

I buy spares.

we know ....
Porsche sells you a car with bad tires, you just buy new ones
no fcks given
You will out live me for sure

#2490 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Hah, not sure if you're stalking me on other forums but that literally happened.
My rear tires were worn down to the cords at 10.5K.
I really couldn't blame them for it as my driving style is aggressive, so I just bought replacements.

LOL - that's too funny.
You're ok in my book

#2491 2 years ago
Quoted from PinFever:

Game sells out to Shills .. They Flip the CE 500 only made for 15k or more... LOOKS LIKE MY 13300 Dollar pin is well under that Price. I WIN / F>U /
So many telling me i got ripped. GTFOH / Love the game . Got an Extra Playfield yet i need not do anything because even with the Pooling , it effects play =0
I win./ WIN WIN / Do not buy them. that way i do not have to scramble for the CE / Leave them for the Smarter people Like Zaphx

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#2494 2 years ago
Quoted from PinFever:

must be hard to figure out somehow..
Who is selling GnrCe for 13330 ? That comes with an Extra NOS Sparkle playfield

wouldn't it technically be NS = New Stock and not NOS = New Old Stock

1 week later
#2505 2 years ago
Quoted from PinFever:

what pisses me off about this is the Price. I think i should only pay that for my Warranty Only Replacement price instead of the 500 plus shipping i am told it will cost..
LIKE WTF JJP!!!!!!!!
I should get it for free or at least at this price. F.U Mofo JJP
/ But i love the game
Damnit

100% Agree - Your warranty replacement PF SHOULD BE 100% FREE
That's the issue with JJP - it's not just the crappy PF's - It's how they treated customers with defective PF's
All companies and people make mistakes - it's how you fix the mistakes that makes a lasting impression.

Quoted from hool10:

No other company sells their defective playfields. Just think about that for a moment folks. So they don't return the playfields back to Mirco but resell them. Yeah...

At least they are not putting them in machines

#2513 2 years ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Most of us already know you are part of the problem.
Because of people like you this issue will NEVER get fixed.

At this point, who really cares any more.
There are so many other options, including just enjoying what you already have

1 week later
#2526 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And while you sit on the sidelines the CEs will sell out.

Not so bad to miss out on CE
GNR CE customers got stuck with crappy PF's

Just don't feel like I am missing out not having LE's, CE's, SLE's
My life somehow still feels complete

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

If the 15k rumor is true I do not think they will sell out, unless it is like limited to 500 then maybe, but at 1,000 hmmm I don't think so.
You?

of course they 100% will - probably already possible to get

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