Never hear anything from JJP either

I had an early DILE that was fine and just picked up a DICE that has one of those glassy perfect looking playfields. Pretty sure he bought an expensive new printer after that, maybe late 2017.

So has anyone asked their distributor to hold off shipping an le yet? I’m really considering asking to wait. Curious who’s holding off and how many?

Did you look under the protectors at the SIM card hole? That's where the chipping was really obvious. Big chunks off the playfield. Came off the one we had in less than 50 plays (before protectors were available - JJP eventually offered REAL Cliffies, which was great, but they're back to inferior knockoffs now).

Doesn't surprise me at all.
1) he's a subcontractor - this business is between JJP and him.
2) He's never been upfront with people. Just look at this thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mirco-playfields-warning-for-potential-buyers

Seriously; he's not a good person for this hobby. I really wish people would stop buying from him.

They probably copied cliffies design and offered no licensing fee what-so-ever. That would be about par for JJP's course.

They tried to do their own knockoff, but it's not as good. The Dialed In ones Pat thought he could design were a joke. That's why they ended up with real cliffies for that pin eventually.

And let's be real, Stern also ripped off Cliffy wholesale with inferior knockoffs with no remuneration offered to him at all, ever.

Cliff has done a LOT to move pinball forward and has a TON more to offer in other areas of pinball engineering if only the majors would tap his skill without the threat of ripping him off wholesale every time he turns around. He deserves a lifetime achievement TWIPY or something for his protector innovations. First to solve the problem back in the 1990s, and still the best.

Team Cliffy here, unabashedly.

When did JJP start shipping with washers installed from the factory?

gnr le’s had clear except Maybee the first couple ones, practically all le’s. Sounds like the first se’s didn’t and then shortly after included black ones
Looks like CE stands for chipped everywhere? Pfff

It does take a bit to figure out the different nuances. Like you said, when you do, it’s a lot of fun and very addictive.

I’m loving my CE

Now maybe it just hasn’t happened yet but my CE pf is gorgeous without lifting or chipping.

Same thing with my Wonka CE

Seeing those pics does not give me confidence though.

JJP better do something about Mirco

I think it is an ink adhesion problem to the playfield and not so much a clear problem. If that ink has not been properly cured or dried before being cleared there is nothing you can do for a fix at that point except hope and pray it holds together. I wish they would come up with a uv cured ink that could be cured before it gets clear coated then I think it would be solid. I see this problem in the collision industry from time to time where the base coat has not been fully flashed off before clearing and the solvents get trapped from the base coat and can’t offgas because of the hardened clear and now you have an adhesion problem. If these playfields could sit for as long as possible before assembly the better. In a production style setting I don’t know if that is possible. It is unfortunate because time is money in their eyes!

Are there dates as to when this started for se's?

When you say black ones, are they metal or plastic?

I would definitely 100% want clear ones.

It's interesting that this failure mode seems somewhat different from Stern's. In both cases, the ink is definitely letting go from the playfield. It bubbles, and eventually tears. However, the JJP clearcoat seems to be a lot more brittle. It's actually cracking apart vs. staying adhered to the ink that let go.

Everything I’ve seen is plastic under the posts. They also have metal washers under the ball guides, which was a pleasant surprise! I thought the clear washers were gonna look stupid, but they don’t. That said, I’m not a fan of the black ones... my buddies le was like one of the first ones sent out and his already had the clear washers and metal washers on it. That said, the le’s were after a lot if not all the Ce’s?
Le’s are clear, 2nd run se’s are black.
Edit: I just noticed the build date on the one previously pictured from this year... it’s got the clear washers in the pic, wow. Just wow. I thought we problems were the first runs only.

Agree!! Cliff is great. I have his product on most of my games!!! He is the best!!

The playfield on my AF that I owned in the 90’s was an absolute tank. Felt like I had a million plays on it and it held up unbelievable. I will never believe we couldn’t get playfields of a similar quality today if the pin companies really wanted to pay to get it done.

Unless your playfield was made using a different process I honestly don’t believe some are fine. It is just a matter of time IMO. The issues will happen to all PF’s eventually IMO.

It’s like We paid for a Picasso (Eric)and got it, but instead of linen canvas it’s painted on fax machine carbon paper.

We are not Mirco's customer with GNR. Have you dealt with him for issues with a direct purchase?

Yes.

Unfortunately, given their silence, the only way to get JJP’s attention may be the threat of a class action lawsuit. There is enough money at stake with these issues and number of people impacted to make this an option worth exploring. I have no skin in the game, but someone who does should probably consult with an attorney who practices in this area.

It sucks that it’s come to this, but JJP’s inaction is leaving customers with no choice. The billionaires running the show should be held accountable. I’m sure they won’t have to sell their yachts to replace some playfields and do proper R&D to solve the problem going forward.

Won’t matter. As long as the folks who don’t know or care vote with prebuying, no class action waste of time will make a difference.

Other than making some lawyers money.

Just keep the posts and info flowing. Word of mouth is already working. I have seven friends and none of us are buying JJP until fixed. One is a huge GnR fan, killed him to stay away. He will play on location instead.

Playfield date is Nov 2020

20210523_130101 (resized).jpg

20210523_130310 (resized).jpg

I had a DI CE and a used DI CE populated playfield and both were good but I did notice the inserts were a bit low on both but you wouldn’t know unless you run your fingers across it or a very slow ball.

Nah. I don't think lawsuits or the threat of such are good for anyone at all. JJP just needs to be gently prompted to do what they should have done 3 years ago and dump Mirco, then make these owners whole by at the VERY LEAST giving them the option to buy an at-cost spare playfield from the new manufacturer 6 months or whatever from now. If they were doing what they SHOULD do, they'd be sending out after-Mirco PFs to affected owners gratis. But actual cost (I estimate around $300) would be better than the "you'll keep it and shut up about it or we're buying it back and no GnR for you" approach they're using at the moment. All I can think of is Hogbog has to be gutted *AGAIN* now that his SECOND masterpiece is tainted by drama (remember #Discgate, #TrunkGate, #PoolingGate?) . The guy can't catch a break.

But class action? I don't think that's the way. It'd be better for someone with an affected machine in or near Chicagoland to contact one of those consumer advocate reporters on the local Chicago news stations (a quick google search shows at least two stations have one) and turn them on to this mess on $13k machines that JJP seems to want their customers to eat. It'd make a persuasive story for their viewers and maybe help JJP get off the fence with Mirco for JJP's long term benefit. Doesn't cost anything and keeps greedy lawyers from fattening their coffers and making an even bigger legal headache for JJP no one wants or needs.

For the record, JJP has always done right by me. Making the WoZ lighting upgrade available to me at a discounted price even though I was a second owner and 5 years out of warranty as well as sending a new jjPtoC playfield when the NIB stock one had pooling and chipping issues similar to what's being seen (but worse) on jjGnR. Other, smaller warranty issues have always been handled well. It bums me out to hear that now they're telling similarly-affected GnR owners to pound sand when they CLEARLY have defective playfields. Hopefully this delusion is short-lived and they get back on the straight and narrow with a long-term playfield supplier change and some actual relief for affected users. The "spare playfield at cost" option costs them NOTHING but some administration overhead. Why wouldn't they DO that? I think 99% of users affected would even be happy to wait while a manufacturer change is made as long as they know a new, non-defective playfield is coming even if they worst-case have to pay $300 for it.

I’ve been reading all these posts with great interest and a certain amount of nervousness. I gave JJP a $1000 deposit on a LE back on October 27. With all these play field issues I’m seriously worried that I’ll get a defective game after waiting all this time and shelling out $10,000. Does anyone know if I can get my deposit returned by JJP if I cancel over these ongoing play field issues? Or would I have to forfeit it? I want this game very much, but not if it has serious play field issues and JJP refuses to stand behind it.

JJP has never had a non refundable deposit program. I’m positive they’ll refund you.

You’ll be rolling the dice man. And not in your favor. If not damaged nib it may well be 500 plays in. Then what? Can’t unsee that in your home. I’d stew on it forever. But results may vary.

Good luck to the guys paying too dollar and not caring. Especially on resale, cuz I’d negotiate hard on visual inspection of buying secondhand. Painfully hard.

Well then they must have changed things because I put my deposit down with JJP on December 30th and it clearly said non-refundable multiple times in the process.
With that said, there's probably enough people here that would take your spot in line and pay you a few bucks extra cuz that would save them off the new retail price.
Now if you went through a distributor, The deposit policy was between you and the distributor.

I know it is hard. And having got in when I did, I’m getting it $1000 cheaper than anyone buying one NIB now. But I love my games and want to play them regularly at home without worrying if each play is gonna cause it to chip, pool, etc. I’m thinking maybe I should get my deposit back and put that money into another game I want from a more dependable manufacturer. I’m open to any suggestions from the community.

Well you can hope the issue is resolved by the time your machine is made, and/or just hope it doesn't take much of a hit on the secondary market, which is very very doubtful

If someone can convince the local media to cover a story about some rich dudes upset because their ridiculously expensive toys have some cosmetic imperfections that’s great, but somehow I don’t think the folks outside our little bubble will give a shit. I agree a lawsuit is a terrible option, but it may be the only option if JJP doesn’t do what they should do. After years of lies, BS, and continued issues, time’s up.

They're in the entertainment business. Pinball makes a bunch of great B-roll for their story and the LA ones, at least, have covered wackier stuff than this. Costs nothing and likely to be enough persuasion to get JJP off the fence. Win-win if there's someone in the area of Chicagoland. Proximity is the only hard part of that path.

JJP direct or a Distributor?
If the former; then demand an onsite examination of your machine before they box it. Tell them you will be looking for pooling post and functional games. If they reject your demand - tell them you want a full refund because you can't and won't accept a pooling playfield.

If the latter; make the same demand at their place of business.

Be prepare to follow thru on your bluff... IE pay airline or drive.

I agree with this, but it sounds like the games mostly look great when first unboxed. It isn’t until 50-100 plays that any evidence exists. I could be wrong but that’s how I understand it.

That’s what I was thinking too. A pre-boxed inspection wouldn’t do much if the play field is going to start chipping after 100 or so plays. I’m sure this has been covered before, but I couldn’t find it...does anyone know if putting a play field protecter and washers on the pin before playing a single game will prevent chipping (and possibly pooling)?

That’s what I was thinking too. A pre-boxed inspection wouldn’t do much if the play field is going to start chipping after 100 or so plays. I’m sure this has been covered before, but I couldn’t find it...does anyone know if putting a play field protecter and washers on the pin before playing a single game will prevent chipping (and possibly pooling)?

It's my understanding that a soft clear would be obvious at assembly stage. That said; who really knows because JJP isn't being transparent about a darn thing.

I thought I read somewhere in one of the many threads that a number of games show pooling on the first unbox. not after 100 or so plays. Since I haven't been crazy enough to be bitten by this issue ... I'm only speaking from the multitude of threads on this issue across all the vendors.

Personally; I feel JJPs QA assembling is just simply trash / non-existent. They just throw shit together and ship it with very little care about the overall quality of the product. I'd bet there is an incoming quality check they could do to weed out these PFs. But they are more interested in taking your money rather than doing a good job.

That said; I wouldn't want to risk a 12k pile of cash on my understanding. The best thing to do is just cancel your order demanding a refund for the deposit.

It would help if you never play it as well. If it's that much of a concern I would just back out. These games are supposed to be exciting and fun. They are supposed to reduce stress not add to it. If you are constantly stressing that something bad is going to happen with the game that's no fun.

Some harsh words incoming...

...you guys shitting on Kaneda for hyping GNR are idiots. Sorry, but you are. Kaneda hyped GNR b/c he's a nerdy, megafan of the band. He didn't know there would be PF issues when he was hyping it up. He hasn't "returned" his CE yet, because A: he doesn't know if it has issues or not, and B: he actually wants to keep the game that he bought and has been looking forward to owning for months.

I'm tired of idiotic and blind Kaneda hate, that doesn't even pass a slight common-sense check or the barest minimum of fact checking. And Chris is right, PF issues like these are a real problem, and no way should this still be happening. When Jack said JJP had identified and fixed the PF issues, he was lying. Or at least very misinformed. It's been years since Jack claimed that they fixed the problem. It's crazy that JJP hasn't solved this issue by now. Just nuts.

Continued radio silence from JJP is a huge mistake. At the very least release a statement saying you are aware of the issues some customers are having and are working on a solution.

Putting your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la can't hear you" isn't going to cut it.

Oh thank god he let us know, we'd be completely in the dark without his divine intervention.

Just an opinion and Not siding with JJP but I find it unlikely they or any company will ever acknowledge or admit an issue like this as it opens the flood gates for years of product recalls. Not saying its right but doubt they will ever publicly admit fault.

Clearly thats the case although JJP has admitted problems with Wonka and POTC.....the real issue to me is JJP basically telling customers to pound salt, and supporting customers....

Have they admitted this issue verbally or in writing anywhere or simply (on occasion) offered a repair solution to offset the complaint? Offering a repair is not the same as admitting fault which I think will be unlikely. Not excusable though.

Agreed - I am on the sidelines also with any new JJP - they have had far too long to fix the issues
and I had been waiting so long for a JJP to come out with a game like GnR that I really wanted to buy ... oh well

Stern has done it this way for...well, forever. There's zero upside to a public announcement. JJP handling it quietly in the background is the way it will happen if they wake up and change their idiotic new "playfield defects are yours to enjoy" policy (and I hope they do, especially option "B" the spare playfield at cost option that costs them almost nothing but administration).

I'm with you on this. I played a beautiful LE over the weekend that had no issues. My plan at this point is to wait and pick one up later that has a good playfield, rather than play the playfield lottery, especially as replacements are not offered anymore.

LE with a verifiably good playfield might start commanding closer to CE pricing.... Depending on how much of a unicorn it is, of course.