(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

1 year ago


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#2501 4 months ago
Quoted from hool10:

No other company sells their defective playfields. Just think about that for a moment folks. So they don't return the playfields back to Mirco but resell them. Yeah...

As I understand, many of the classic NOS PFs floating around were not suitable for use in the original runs... but at some point were acquired, and now being sold as NOS, but sometimes contain small imperfections.

It is too bad JJP is not more transparent (NPI), about the whole PF thing. Such a PR nightmare that I can't imagine how it could have been handled any worse.

#2502 4 months ago
Quoted from hool10:

No other company sells their defective playfields. Just think about that for a moment folks. So they don't return the playfields back to Mirco but resell them. Yeah...

Those Abess guys are doing a hell of a job.

#2503 4 months ago
Quoted from koji:

As I understand, many of the classic NOS PFs floating around were not suitable for use in the original runs... but at some point were acquired, and now being sold as NOS, but sometimes contain small imperfections.
It is too bad JJP is not more transparent (NPI), about the whole PF thing. Such a PR nightmare that I can't imagine how it could have been handled any worse.

Toy story sold out CE’s already?

#2504 4 months ago

"Fire sale" comes to mind.
Sadly; this isn't it. They are just "profiting" of the misery of their customers.
Either that or they are just trying to "Break even" on PFs they know they cannot shove down someone's throat.

#2505 3 months ago
Quoted from PinFever:

what pisses me off about this is the Price. I think i should only pay that for my Warranty Only Replacement price instead of the 500 plus shipping i am told it will cost..
LIKE WTF JJP!!!!!!!!
I should get it for free or at least at this price. F.U Mofo JJP
/ But i love the game
Damnit

100% Agree - Your warranty replacement PF SHOULD BE 100% FREE
That's the issue with JJP - it's not just the crappy PF's - It's how they treated customers with defective PF's
All companies and people make mistakes - it's how you fix the mistakes that makes a lasting impression.

Quoted from hool10:

No other company sells their defective playfields. Just think about that for a moment folks. So they don't return the playfields back to Mirco but resell them. Yeah...

At least they are not putting them in machines

#2506 3 months ago

No horse in the race anymore. I will never buy a new pin and will be selling all my pins at some point in the future to make that money work for me. But, I read these posts and you guys are bitching and raising hell about JJPs business practices yet you continue to buy. Hell, someone posted that toy story ces were sold out, at what 13 or 14 K. When it comes to this issue you guys are your own worst enemy. Let these games rot in their warehouse and they will get their shit together or at least you won’t be paying a fortune for a game that is defective out of the box.

#2507 3 months ago
Quoted from zr11990:

No horse in the race anymore. I will never buy a new pin and will be selling all my pins at some point in the future to make that money work for me. But, I read these posts and you guys are bitching and raising hell about JJPs business practices yet you continue to buy. Hell, someone posted that toy story ces were sold out, at what 13 or 14 K. When it comes to this issue you guys are your own worst enemy. Let these games rot in their warehouse and they will get their shit together or at least you won’t be paying a fortune for a game that is defective out of the box.

Easier said than done. There will always be the guy who talks the big game, then dishes out $13,000 because of FOMO. Hypocrites.

#2508 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Easier said than done. There will always be the guy who talks the big game, then dishes out $13,000 because of FOMO. Hypocrites.

Guilty.

#2509 3 months ago

JJP is still making games?

-1
#2510 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Easier said than done. There will always be the guy who talks the big game, then dishes out $13,000 because of FOMO. Hypocrites.

And I'll think of you when I do it.

10
#2511 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And I'll think of you when I do it.

Most of us already know you are part of the problem.

Because of people like you this issue will NEVER get fixed.

#2512 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Most of us already know you are part of the problem.
Because of people like you this issue will NEVER get fixed.

Happy to be of service!

#2513 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Most of us already know you are part of the problem.
Because of people like you this issue will NEVER get fixed.

At this point, who really cares any more.
There are so many other options, including just enjoying what you already have

#2514 3 months ago
Quoted from smalltownguy2:

There will always be the guy who talks the big game, then dishes out $13,000 because of FOMO. Hypocrites.

Not me. I was in on a CE. Cancelled my spot because of JJPs actions/inactions and I *really* wanted Toy Story. Will no longer consider buying a JJP game unless things change.

#2515 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not me. I was in on a CE. Cancelled my spot because of JJPs actions/inactions and I *really* wanted Toy Story. Will no longer consider buying a JJP game unless things change.

And while you sit on the sidelines the CEs will sell out.

#2516 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not me. I was in on a CE. Cancelled my spot because of JJPs actions/inactions and I *really* wanted Toy Story. Will no longer consider buying a JJP game unless things change.

I got yours on layaway

#2517 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And while you sit on the sidelines the CEs will sell out.

I don’t doubt it, but that’s not enough to make me change my mind.

#2518 3 months ago

There are a handful of must have titles that I would buy from any company, but until I hear about any of them - I’m out. I sold the majority of my collection. New games are not made well. The exception for me has been CGC. Yes there have been issues, but they have responded better than others. I do miss Chas. He rocked.

#2519 3 months ago

I just feel good knowing I'd have at least two more of their machines and I don't. That's two sales. I'm sure there are many others in the same boat. That does affect their profits. Tough times are on the way. Then we'll see.

#2520 3 months ago

Does it make you feel better wishing failure for a company that others count on for their lively hood?

#2521 3 months ago
Quoted from koji:

As I understand, many of the classic NOS PFs floating around were not suitable for use in the original runs... but at some point were acquired, and now being sold as NOS, but sometimes contain small imperfections.
It is too bad JJP is not more transparent (NPI), about the whole PF thing. Such a PR nightmare that I can't imagine how it could have been handled any worse.

I didn't know about this for NOS pfs. They didn't sell them however which my theory is that JJP sells defective pfs not only as art but to sell them at cost to avoid a loss. My theory is JJP is contractually obligated that they can't ship back to Mirco due to international shipping rates and redo work would be cost prohibitive. This goes for their "factory finds" as if they act like they don't have an up-to-date inventory total on every screw they have. I think the vast majority of buyers don't know about these issues or know and don't care. That doesn't make it right though.

Quoted from Mike_J:

Those Abess guys are doing a hell of a job.

Honestly I don't think think the entire blame is on the Abess family.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

100% Agree - Your warranty replacement PF SHOULD BE 100% FREE
That's the issue with JJP - it's not just the crappy PF's - It's how they treated customers with defective PF's
All companies and people make mistakes - it's how you fix the mistakes that makes a lasting impression.

At least they are not putting them in machines

As much flack as Stern Pinball gets they have a better track record than most companies. One of the many reasons why operators choose to route them or most of your friends have a Stern Pinball game or even yourself. They earn and they rarely go down and if they do customer support mostly has your back. Scoop issue on Rush was acknowledged by Stern and a fix will be sent out as an example. Earlier with say splitting cabinets with Ghostbusters or say node boards failing they don't replace. That is troubling and something they have to improve upon. The majority of serious issues with Stern games are a non-factor however. Coil stops are easily replaceable or a node board. The majority of most JJP pfs are defective. The freaking playfield itself.

Quoted from zr11990:

No horse in the race anymore. I will never buy a new pin and will be selling all my pins at some point in the future to make that money work for me. But, I read these posts and you guys are bitching and raising hell about JJPs business practices yet you continue to buy. Hell, someone posted that toy story ces were sold out, at what 13 or 14 K. When it comes to this issue you guys are your own worst enemy. Let these games rot in their warehouse and they will get their shit together or at least you won’t be paying a fortune for a game that is defective out of the box.

I bought my game from pinballs.com or Automated Services.

I know of a few things that is going on at JJP that again I won't write publicly. Jack Guarnieri, Eric Meunier, Ken Cromwell and especially Mark Seiden I consider close friends whom I would buy a beer or lend aid at a moments notice. I purchased a GnR Standard at the end of May last year from Mike Daddona. I had full intentions to purchase a BM '66 and the last time I was at the showroom he had only the LE on the floor. Well this time he had a Standard and I played it. To me it offered more stuff in the game and was cheaper. So to support my friends at JJP and Automated I decided to go with JJP. I also noticed the LE model next to the Standard was chipping, Mike knew about it, and promised me he would "fight for me if any issues arises". Mike is a known trusted distributor and very close with JJP so I felt safer in those regards.

I had an unboxing party. Upon unboxing the game as the game was still in the box with coin door facing up in the bed of my truck, we see the coin door sticker was slapped on crooked. Ok, not a big deal but could have been prevented with an alignment jig for the sticker. We figure out a way to get the game off the truck and unbox it on the driveway. Yoko2una, I have it on video, points out the cabinet decals around the flipper buttons are wrinkled. Again not a huge issue as I will just take the flipper buttons off and smoothen it out. Could have been prevented by the line worker being trained properly not twisting the flipper button but rather the lock nut inside the cabinet. It's an issue sorted out around 7 years ago with Stern Pinball KISS but an issue with JJP still. Since my place doesn't have room currently I placed this game at an NEPL location to promote JJP/GnR. The game played fine and when I returned for an NEPL night about 1-2 weeks later I went to play my game. The game wasn't played that much since I left it and had under 50 plays. However pooling started on my game. It's as if the game being exposed to oxygen like a mummy was making it fall apart or something. So what I do is I notify Mike about these issues and tell him to not worry as I will "fix it" and I know I will meet JJP at Pintastic and Expo to talk about it. I spend like $100 on a freaking iron and silicone washers and I'm taking apart my game and it only has 80 or so plays at this point. People during league nights are watching me take a freaking iron to my $8k game going "didn't you just buy this game"??? Fast forward to October last year and I finally meet just about everyone including former and current JJP employees. I won't go into specific details however what I was told was rather alarming. So when I get back home I email Mike and Mike this time calls JJP directly and leaves a phone message. He doesn't get a phone call back. Then when Pintastic came Jack was informed about this situation by Mike in-person and wanted to be included on this case. Anyone who has ever met Jack knows Jack cares about you and will give you his own phone in fact to call the person responsible. I even have it filmed on a Pintastic seminar.

To this day Mike Daddona hasn't received a call back. I have another friend who has an LE through Automated and she got more lucky with a response from JJP and they told her "there is nothing they could do and buy the pf protection kit". Hers looks much worse than mine. Aside from the decal issues and playfield issues the silicone washers also created pooling including underneath the apron where the ball doesn't even hit. I spent more money on PETG washers and started to install them but gave up realizing the insanity of it all. Also at a certain point the clearcoat does cure and trying to heat it up will chip the clearcoat rather than re-flow so you're essentially making the problem worse. The reason why the newer production games the pfs have had like a year to cure so that could be why the games are not pooling anymore. Luckily the pooling/chipping has stopped it appears like. The record spinner used to wobble because of a screw under the record not having Loctite on it. Not the nylon locknut but the screw under the record sticker. It would create serious airballs constantly. So I had to pay $48 for 6 stickers to fix that problem. Those are all the problems I have had with this game and have spent like $200 on repairs. Currently the game is at a pinball coop/museum in Providence, RI for the public to play. It has over 400 plays and looks fantastic and plays fantastic. Again most of the people at JJP are good people and they do care about their games but talking is different than proving. Honestly from what I learned it's a company culture issue with egos but that is with all the companies. Don't be too harsh on QA or the aforementioned people. They are good people who want to make good games but are just stuck in a shitty situation and sometimes they can't do anything about it even though they want to.

#2522 3 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

you feel better wishing failure for a company

I do.
Treat your customers like shit. Expect failure

#2523 3 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

Does it make you feel better wishing failure for a company that others count on for their lively hood?

There's been a number of people on Pinside that have hated JJP from the start. I don't understand it other then some deep seated resentment that a pinball company came out of no where and started producing games with twice as many features, mechs, and code then Stern. That rubbed some people the wrong way and still does to this day.

With that being said JJP hasn't handled GNR playfield issues well. The owners with severe chipping and pooling deserved at least a free playfield. Personally its taught me to never buy another JJP game unless its at least 6 months post release. Same goes for Stern, there's too many issues with early build games to warrant a purchase at these insane prices IMO. However, Stern at least appears to have resolved their playfield issues by removing artwork around all posts, something JJP still refuses to do which seems odd.

#2524 3 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

There's been a number of people on Pinside that have hated JJP from the start. I don't understand it other then some deep seated resentment that a pinball company came out of no where and started producing games with twice as many features, mechs, and code then Stern. That rubbed some people the wrong way and still does to this day.
With that being said JJP hasn't handled GNR playfield issues well. The owners with severe chipping and pooling deserved at least a free playfield. Personally its taught me to never buy another JJP game unless its at least 6 months post release. Same goes for Stern, there's too many issues with early build games to warrant a purchase at these insane prices IMO. However, Stern at least appears to have resolved their playfield issues by removing artwork around all posts, something JJP still refuses to do which seems odd.

Totally agree with your assessment.
It’s the people that go from JJP thread to thread and bash like they have Stern stock.We all get it by now

1 week later
#2525 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And while you sit on the sidelines the CEs will sell out.

If the 15k rumor is true I do not think they will sell out, unless it is like limited to 500 then maybe, but at 1,000 hmmm I don't think so.

You?

#2526 3 months ago
Quoted from zaphX:

And while you sit on the sidelines the CEs will sell out.

Not so bad to miss out on CE
GNR CE customers got stuck with crappy PF's

Just don't feel like I am missing out not having LE's, CE's, SLE's
My life somehow still feels complete

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

If the 15k rumor is true I do not think they will sell out, unless it is like limited to 500 then maybe, but at 1,000 hmmm I don't think so.
You?

of course they 100% will - probably already possible to get

#2527 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

If the 15k rumor is true I do not think they will sell out, unless it is like limited to 500 then maybe, but at 1,000 hmmm I don't think so.
You?

Who knows in this crazy market...

#2528 3 months ago

Pinball manufacturers are acting like AAA video game companies. Put the product out in a untested, unfinished state, then slowly patch/fix it over time (or with JJP, just don't fix it). They make their money regardless of the quality because of idiots who tacitly endorse the behavior by buying the product, so it's a smart business decision for them. It doesn't hurt their bottom line. Pinball is just on a much larger scale (cost and FOMO-wise) in comparison to video game companies.

#2529 3 months ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

If the 15k rumor is true I do not think they will sell out, unless it is like limited to 500 then maybe, but at 1,000 hmmm I don't think so.
You?

The EHOH 40th Edition limited to 200 units at $25k each with nothing much more added aside from some foofoo cosmetic shit is selling no problem. Im sure these companies see how games are getting flipped NIB for more money than MSRP and raising the price would be the way to get that money into their pocket

#2530 3 months ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Pinball manufacturers are acting like AAA video game companies. Put the product out in a untested, unfinished state, then slowly patch/fix it over time (or with JJP, just don't fix it). They make their money regardless of the quality because of idiots who tacitly endorse the behavior by buying the product, so it's a smart business decision for them. It doesn't hurt their bottom line. Pinball is just on a much larger scale (cost and FOMO-wise) in comparison to video game companies.

JJP has historically put out games that are pretty close to being finished (code wise) as compared to Stern. They then spend the next few years fine tuning. The only game I'm aware of that they didnt really finish is POTC. If they could fix their play field issues, and start supporting customers better (like they used to do) it be hard to find anything wrong with JJP.

#2531 3 months ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

The EHOH 40th Edition limited to 200 units at $25k each with nothing much more added aside from some foofoo cosmetic shit is selling no problem. Im sure these companies see how games are getting flipped NIB for more money than MSRP and raising the price would be the way to get that money into their pocket

Clearly Stern and JJP have realized that these special editions and CE's are by far their biggest money makers. Its actually smart business ... until GNR JJP CE's have never sold out immediately, and most took months if not years to actually sell.

#2532 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Clearly Stern and JJP have realized that these special editions and CE's are by far their biggest money makers. Its actually smart business ... until GNR JJP CE's have never sold out immediately, and most took months if not years to actually sell.

That's true but I think that was more due to the playfield shitstorm, not the price yeah?

#2533 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

If they could fix their play field issues, and start supporting customers better (like they used to do) it be hard to find anything wrong with JJP.

There isn’t a font size big enough for that If

#2534 3 months ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

That's true but I think that was more due to the playfield shitstorm, not the price yeah?

My guess is it was all price....I mean how much more does it cost JJP to add invisiglass, art blades, different trim and powder coating, topper, external volume control, and rad cals....my guess is maybe an additional $500 in material and labor yet they sell for $3K more (at release). Although for the first time JJP had an additional mech in the GNR CE

#2535 3 months ago
Quoted from jfh:

There isn’t a font size big enough for that If

Very True

#2536 3 months ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My guess is it was all price....I mean how much more does it cost JJP to add invisiglass, art blades, different trim and powder coating, topper, external volume control, and rad cals....my guess is maybe an additional $500 in material and labor yet they sell for $3K more (at release). Although for the first time JJP had an additional mech in the GNR CE

How much more does it cost Stern to add "...signed trading card, ...a special dagger shooter knob, ‘paranormal purple’ paintwork, a signed copy of Elvira’s memoirs and 40th anniversary branding on the backglass and cabinet artwork..." to the EHOH 40th Anniversary? About the same probably, but those have no problem selling for $20k-$25k on the secondhand market

#2537 3 months ago

and all it really is ,is a 4500 dollar homepin/ like BM 66 / or god le or a https://pinside.com/pinball/machine/wrestlemania-le

Quoted from Knxwledge:

How much more does it cost Stern to add "...signed trading card, ...a special dagger shooter knob, ‘paranormal purple’ paintwork, a signed copy of Elvira’s memoirs and 40th anniversary branding on the backglass and cabinet artwork..." to the EHOH 40th Anniversary? About the same probably, but those have no problem selling for $20k-$25k on the secondhand market

2 weeks later
#2538 3 months ago

Just saw on a stream of Mirco's Texas Pinball Festival presentation: When asked for an official comment on the playfield issues: "No comment." So there you go. Nothing will change. Very sad to see.

#2539 3 months ago

We have no issues ….. right…

Let’s ask the genie then , I will rub the lamp this time to see what shit comes next

#2540 3 months ago
Quoted from AMSNL:

We have no issues ….. right…
Let’s ask the genie then , I will rub the lamp this time to see what shit comes next

You mean ask the Magic 8 Ball and ........ ● Outlook not so good.

#2541 3 months ago

Even the magic 8 ball lost his marbles on this one

#2542 3 months ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

How much more does it cost Stern to add "...signed trading card, ...a special dagger shooter knob, ‘paranormal purple’ paintwork, a signed copy of Elvira’s memoirs and 40th anniversary branding on the backglass and cabinet artwork..." to the EHOH 40th Anniversary? About the same probably, but those have no problem selling for $20k-$25k on the secondhand market

There u go....they do it because someone will buy it ! Its smart business....

#2543 89 days ago
Quoted from Dreadreaper:

Just saw on a stream of Mirco's Texas Pinball Festival presentation: When asked for an official comment on the playfield issues: "No comment." So there you go. Nothing will change. Very sad to see.

Where did you see that? I’d like to watch this

#2545 88 days ago
Quoted from jfh:

Not me. I was in on a CE. Cancelled my spot because of JJPs actions/inactions and I *really* wanted Toy Story. Will no longer consider buying a JJP game unless things change.

The interesting thing here is.

How will you know if things have changed ?

This has been promised before...

20210909_134038 (resized).jpg
#2546 88 days ago
Quoted from RA77:

The interesting thing here is.
How will you know if things have changed ?
This has been promised before...[quoted image]

You won't until 100's are out in the field, and holding up like The Hobbit, or DI or the if JJP changes its warranty policy on play fields

2 months later
#2547 8 days ago

Over/under on how long before the first "My Toy Story 4 playfield is disintegrating" thread appears?

Jeff

#2548 8 days ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

Over/under on how long before the first "My Toy Story 4 playfield is disintegrating" thread appears?
Jeff

Less than a month.

#2549 8 days ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

Less than a month.

I believe you that someone will have an issue, but we havent heard a ton of complaints lately on jjp stuff lately.

#2550 8 days ago

Maybe they stripped the BOM on the playfield down to pay for upgraded quality on the playfield?

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