(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

2 years ago


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#2401 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Can you elaborate on that?
Stern's hardware doesn't seem to restrict them

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

#2402 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

Sorry, not oblivious to me & wasn't trying to set up a battle.
I appreciate your response

#2403 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

you are a brave brave soul coming in here. I pray for you.

#2404 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

Just FYI,,, I got my WW NIB a week ago... I absolutely am a fan of JJP. Thanks.

#2405 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

Is it not obvious? I wasn't actually comparing us to Stern. I don't really want to go there. Dialed In! is a good case though with its 3 monitors. Just a simple example off the top of my head.

Yeah, I can't think of any kind of graphical image processing features in any modern sterns? Mostly just media playback and scoring, as you can see just about everything from pinballbrowser?

Meanwhile, dialed in has selfie modes and things like that going on, requiring some image processing etc... never really thought about it before..

10
#2406 2 years ago

I don't intend to start a debate on whether a PC is suitable for a pinball machine. I understand the pros and cons of each architecture (disclaimer: my work is specifically on embedded ARM device, so I'm quite knowledgeable).

But I can build a three display output (and more) ARM based system with equivalent graphics capabilities for the purpose of a pinball machine in a 30W enveloppe with an operating lifetime under full load of 5 years, 24/7. And I can add some additionnal capabilities on top of it, image processing being one of them, but not only. That's kind of the whole reason why Apple is using ARM extensively, including in their Macbook line and ditched x86.

x86 brings is essentially ease of development and reduced engineering cost (especially custom motherboard requirement as is the case for Spike 2). As of today, from the pure capability standpoint in a pinball machine, there is little rationale to put a PC, but from the cost of development there definitely is (that, plus the fact that when DialedIn was released, indeed embedded device capabilities were far lower than where they are today).

ARM platform bring better integration, lower power consumption, longer operating lifetime. And for that matter, Stern Spike 2 architecture allows them to have as many display as they want conceptually, so DialedIn 3 screens setup is not something they would not be able to replicate easily should they want to. But engineering cost is way higher. It's a 50k dollars figure at a minimum to build a fully integrated ARM based custom system. Stern Spike 2 development likely costed way more than that, since they built a whole architecture around it (node, communication bus, etc).

when Pinball Brothers selected a PC for their Alien remake, the whole reasoning was likely engineering cost (at the expense of BOM cost though, from what I could see on their system architecture it's not exactly cheap)

So bottom line using a PC is perfectly legitimate, even if not optimal (my DialedIn is NOISY compared to Spike 2 next to it) in my opinion, but can be justified by lower engineering cost.

What I do challenge however is the use of a "consumer" type motherboard and graphics board.

Consumer products are designed with ONE directive: cost. They need to achieve the minimum warranty required legally at the lowest cost, and that's absolutely it (except for gaming motherboard). Which means it's super unlikely it will last for 20y, at least not all of them.

Using a graphics board with a regular PCI-express slot in a mechanically constrained environment, especially with regards to shock and vibration, is really really not a good idea (as we have seen with users reporting that the card had unplugged itself from it's slot). There are industry grade standards to adress precisely this type of concern (MXM being one of them, but not only).

And lastly: supply of these consumer parts do not last forever, whereas in embedded (even in PC space) it is traditionnal to supply components for 5 years at least, 10 years more often than not.

When these parts are not available anymore, should the motherboard or graphics board fail, you're toasted. And speaking of which, I could actually not find replacement boards on JJP website itself. You can't find them on Marco either (at least I couldn't).

One will argue that you could find some on ebay since it's a consumer product, true enough, but for how long ? Especially the graphics board, which is not exactly a standard model (it's a low profile board). WPC machines have been around for more than 20y, and you can still find boards for them. People have been designing replacement CPU board that work out of the box.

It's a different story with a tightly coupled SW/HW as is the case here

I appreciate the fact that JJP is bringing new capabilities to their released machine (Scorbit being one of them), as do many other JJP owners (I have a DialedIn by the way), but so far I have not seen a company commitment to upgrade the BSP (stands for "Board Support Package", ie the combination of BIOS, kernel and filesystem that make the whole thing work) to support different type of HW (especially graphics). And no it's very very unlikely it will work out of the box (try using JJP image on a brand new motherboard with a brand new AMD graphics board see if it works). I tried in a VM, could boot to the main bootloader, but no further.

Maybe some will step in and hack the BSP to make it work on alternate HW, but at the cost of these machines, shouldn't this be the supplier responsibility ?

If JJP state that they can (and will) add support for new motherboard/graphics board, then they will be one step closer to true customer care: allowing the customer to replace parts at a later time with different type of HW. It's a HW maintenance dream. But it has an engineering cost to JJP, with little to no return (except customer satisfaction).

True enough, part availability from Stern is also a concern (and cost !), but at least we have a solution for the foreseeable future. I can buy a Spike 2 board on Marco or Stern 2 easily. I do agree the same question will be raised in 10y.

Anyway, that was a rather long post to state my point of view

Constructive comments welcome, please let's avoid a flame war.

Regards

#2407 2 years ago
Quoted from jeffro01:

I'm almost certain you've said which orientation before but I'm lazy and searching is hard... Slot up or down?
Jeff

Slot down is what I did and it never hangs up

#2408 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

I don't intend to start a debate on whether a PC is suitable for a pinball machine. I understand the pros and cons of each architecture (disclaimer: my work is specifically on embedded ARM device, so I'm quite knowledgeable).
But I can build a three display output (and more) ARM based system with equivalent graphics capabilities for the purpose of a pinball machine in a 30W enveloppe with an operating lifetime under full load of 5 years, 24/7. And I can add some additionnal capabilities on top of it, image processing being one of them, but not only. That's kind of the whole reason why Apple is using ARM extensively, including in their Macbook line and ditched x86.
x86 brings is essentially ease of development and reduced engineering cost (especially custom motherboard requirement as is the case for Spike 2). As of today, from the pure capability standpoint in a pinball machine, there is little rationale to put a PC, but from the cost of development there definitely is (that, plus the fact that when DialedIn was released, indeed embedded device capabilities were far lower than where they are today).
ARM platform bring better integration, lower power consumption, longer operating lifetime. And for that matter, Stern Spike 2 architecture allows them to have as many display as they want conceptually, so DialedIn 3 screens setup is not something they would not be able to replicate easily should they want to. But engineering cost is way higher. It's a 50k dollars figure at a minimum to build a fully integrated ARM based custom system. Stern Spike 2 development likely costed way more than that, since they built a whole architecture around it (node, communication bus, etc).
when Pinball Brothers selected a PC for their Alien remake, the whole reasoning was likely engineering cost (at the expense of BOM cost though, from what I could see on their system architecture it's not exactly cheap)
So bottom line using a PC is perfectly legitimate, even if not optimal (my DialedIn is NOISY compared to Spike 2 next to it) in my opinion, but can be justified by lower engineering cost.
What I do challenge however is the use of a "consumer" type motherboard and graphics board.
Consumer products are designed with ONE directive: cost. They need to achieve the minimum warranty required legally at the lowest cost, and that's absolutely it (except for gaming motherboard). Which means it's super unlikely it will last for 20y, at least not all of them.
Using a graphics board with a regular PCI-express slot in a mechanically constrained environment, especially with regards to shock and vibration, is really really not a good idea (as we have seen with users reporting that the card had unplugged itself from it's slot). There are industry grade standards to adress precisely this type of concern (MXM being one of them, but not only).
And lastly: supply of these consumer parts do not last forever, whereas in embedded (even in PC space) it is traditionnal to supply components for 5 years at least, 10 years more often than not.
When these parts are not available anymore, should the motherboard or graphics board fail, you're toasted. And speaking of which, I could actually not find replacement boards on JJP website itself. You can't find them on Marco either (at least I couldn't).
One will argue that you could find some on ebay since it's a consumer product, true enough, but for how long ? Especially the graphics board, which is not exactly a standard model (it's a low profile board). WPC machines have been around for more than 20y, and you can still find boards for them. People have been designing replacement CPU board that work out of the box.
It's a different story with a tightly coupled SW/HW as is the case here
I appreciate the fact that JJP is bringing new capabilities to their released machine (Scorbit being one of them), as do many other JJP owners (I have a DialedIn by the way), but so far I have not seen a company commitment to upgrade the BSP (stands for "Board Support Package", ie the combination of BIOS, kernel and filesystem that make the whole thing work) to support different type of HW (especially graphics). And no it's very very unlikely it will work out of the box (try using JJP image on a brand new motherboard with a brand new AMD graphics board see if it works). I tried in a VM, could boot to the main bootloader, but no further.
Maybe some will step in and hack the BSP to make it work on alternate HW, but at the cost of these machines, shouldn't this be the supplier responsibility ?
If JJP state that they can (and will) add support for new motherboard/graphics board, then they will be one step closer to true customer care: allowing the customer to replace parts at a later time with different type of HW. It's a HW maintenance dream. But it has an engineering cost to JJP, with little to no return (except customer satisfaction).
True enough, part availability from Stern is also a concern (and cost !), but at least we have a solution for the foreseeable future. I can buy a Spike 2 board on Marco or Stern 2 easily. I do agree the same question will be raised in 10y.
Anyway, that was a rather long post to state my point of view
Constructive comments welcome, please let's avoid a flame war.
Regards

Best post I’ve read in a long time. There are concerns with JJP and future support. Current history of things Jack has said might give a lot of pause.

#2409 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

I don't intend to start a debate on whether a PC is suitable for a pinball machine. I understand the pros and cons of each architecture (disclaimer: my work is specifically on embedded ARM device, so I'm quite knowledgeable).
But I can build a three display output (and more) ARM based system with equivalent graphics capabilities for the purpose of a pinball machine in a 30W enveloppe with an operating lifetime under full load of 5 years, 24/7. And I can add some additionnal capabilities on top of it, image processing being one of them, but not only. That's kind of the whole reason why Apple is using ARM extensively, including in their Macbook line and ditched x86.
x86 brings is essentially ease of development and reduced engineering cost (especially custom motherboard requirement as is the case for Spike 2). As of today, from the pure capability standpoint in a pinball machine, there is little rationale to put a PC, but from the cost of development there definitely is (that, plus the fact that when DialedIn was released, indeed embedded device capabilities were far lower than where they are today).
ARM platform bring better integration, lower power consumption, longer operating lifetime. And for that matter, Stern Spike 2 architecture allows them to have as many display as they want conceptually, so DialedIn 3 screens setup is not something they would not be able to replicate easily should they want to. But engineering cost is way higher. It's a 50k dollars figure at a minimum to build a fully integrated ARM based custom system. Stern Spike 2 development likely costed way more than that, since they built a whole architecture around it (node, communication bus, etc).
when Pinball Brothers selected a PC for their Alien remake, the whole reasoning was likely engineering cost (at the expense of BOM cost though, from what I could see on their system architecture it's not exactly cheap)
So bottom line using a PC is perfectly legitimate, even if not optimal (my DialedIn is NOISY compared to Spike 2 next to it) in my opinion, but can be justified by lower engineering cost.
What I do challenge however is the use of a "consumer" type motherboard and graphics board.
Consumer products are designed with ONE directive: cost. They need to achieve the minimum warranty required legally at the lowest cost, and that's absolutely it (except for gaming motherboard). Which means it's super unlikely it will last for 20y, at least not all of them.
Using a graphics board with a regular PCI-express slot in a mechanically constrained environment, especially with regards to shock and vibration, is really really not a good idea (as we have seen with users reporting that the card had unplugged itself from it's slot). There are industry grade standards to adress precisely this type of concern (MXM being one of them, but not only).
And lastly: supply of these consumer parts do not last forever, whereas in embedded (even in PC space) it is traditionnal to supply components for 5 years at least, 10 years more often than not.
When these parts are not available anymore, should the motherboard or graphics board fail, you're toasted. And speaking of which, I could actually not find replacement boards on JJP website itself. You can't find them on Marco either (at least I couldn't).
One will argue that you could find some on ebay since it's a consumer product, true enough, but for how long ? Especially the graphics board, which is not exactly a standard model (it's a low profile board). WPC machines have been around for more than 20y, and you can still find boards for them. People have been designing replacement CPU board that work out of the box.
It's a different story with a tightly coupled SW/HW as is the case here
I appreciate the fact that JJP is bringing new capabilities to their released machine (Scorbit being one of them), as do many other JJP owners (I have a DialedIn by the way), but so far I have not seen a company commitment to upgrade the BSP (stands for "Board Support Package", ie the combination of BIOS, kernel and filesystem that make the whole thing work) to support different type of HW (especially graphics). And no it's very very unlikely it will work out of the box (try using JJP image on a brand new motherboard with a brand new AMD graphics board see if it works). I tried in a VM, could boot to the main bootloader, but no further.
Maybe some will step in and hack the BSP to make it work on alternate HW, but at the cost of these machines, shouldn't this be the supplier responsibility ?
If JJP state that they can (and will) add support for new motherboard/graphics board, then they will be one step closer to true customer care: allowing the customer to replace parts at a later time with different type of HW. It's a HW maintenance dream. But it has an engineering cost to JJP, with little to no return (except customer satisfaction).
True enough, part availability from Stern is also a concern (and cost !), but at least we have a solution for the foreseeable future. I can buy a Spike 2 board on Marco or Stern 2 easily. I do agree the same question will be raised in 10y.
Anyway, that was a rather long post to state my point of view
Constructive comments welcome, please let's avoid a flame war.
Regards

What I was try to get at but you made the point millions times better than I could of.
Great Post!

29
#2410 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

If JJP state that they can (and will) add support for new motherboard/graphics board, then they will be one step closer to true customer care: allowing the customer to replace parts at a later time with different type of HW. It's a HW maintenance dream. But it has an engineering cost to JJP, with little to no return (except customer satisfaction).

I'm not getting any deeper into this. You seem to be arguing quite successfully that a PC is just fine for pinball (as is Stern's system). I only want to comment on the quote above.

It's not an empty promise, and it's not that we will get around to it sometime in the future. We already do. The latest release of Woz, for example, is using the same OS and graphics drivers as GnR. I just updated our oldest game with our newest game's OS and motherboard/CPU/GPU support. Hobbit through Wonka also run on this same OS. I intend to update our OS again quite soon, and when I do all of our games will get another OS update (not just game code update). This is our standard. It's all automated and has no engineering cost to us other than me running some release scripts. How is that not already making your maintenance dream come true?

#2411 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

I'm not getting any deeper into this. You seem to be arguing quite successfully that a PC is just fine for pinball (as is Stern's system). I only want to comment on the quote above.
It's not an empty promise, and it's not that we will get around to it sometime in the future. We already do. The latest release of Woz, for example, is using the same OS and graphics drivers as GnR. I just updated our oldest game with our newest game's OS and motherboard/CPU/GPU support. Hobbit through Wonka also run on this same OS. I intend to update our OS again quite soon, and when I do all of our games will get another OS update (not just game code update). This is our standard. It's all automated and has no engineering cost to us other than me running some release scripts. How is that not already making your maintenance dream come true?

This should be made a key post, as it is something nobody really knew about until now.

#2412 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

I'm not getting any deeper into this. You seem to be arguing quite successfully that a PC is just fine for pinball (as is Stern's system). I only want to comment on the quote above.
It's not an empty promise, and it's not that we will get around to it sometime in the future. We already do. The latest release of Woz, for example, is using the same OS and graphics drivers as GnR. I just updated our oldest game with our newest game's OS and motherboard/CPU/GPU support. Hobbit through Wonka also run on this same OS. I intend to update our OS again quite soon, and when I do all of our games will get another OS update (not just game code update). This is our standard. It's all automated and has no engineering cost to us other than me running some release scripts. How is that not already making your maintenance dream come true?

I don't see the issue with this? I love JJP pinball, and to be honest an OS is way more flexible with future technology. JMHO
I also like Sterns system, but they will have to change their setup in the future or they will be limited to what they can do with it.

#2413 2 years ago
Quoted from JodyG:

This should be made a key post, as it is something nobody really knew about until now.

Done, but it's stuck way down in a fairly old thread about playfield issues so it's unlikely to be seen by the vast majority of JJP owners. As a WOZ owner this does make me feel a bit better about long-term viability of the game.

#2414 2 years ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

Done, but it's stuck way down in a fairly old thread about playfield issues so it's unlikely to be seen by the vast majority of JJP owners. As a WOZ owner this does make me feel a bit better about long-term viability of the game.

I posted about this in the GNR owner's thread and linked back to this. Maybe key post mine?

#2415 2 years ago
Quoted from Vespula:

I posted about this in the owner's thread and linked back to this. Maybe key post mine?

I don't see it in the WOZ club thread, I don't visit the ones for the other games because I don't own them.

#2416 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

I'm not getting any deeper into this. You seem to be arguing quite successfully that a PC is just fine for pinball (as is Stern's system). I only want to comment on the quote above.
It's not an empty promise, and it's not that we will get around to it sometime in the future. We already do. The latest release of Woz, for example, is using the same OS and graphics drivers as GnR. I just updated our oldest game with our newest game's OS and motherboard/CPU/GPU support. Hobbit through Wonka also run on this same OS. I intend to update our OS again quite soon, and when I do all of our games will get another OS update (not just game code update). This is our standard. It's all automated and has no engineering cost to us other than me running some release scripts. How is that not already making your maintenance dream come true?

Just on a side note, thank you JJP for all of the incredible code work over the years, it's the best in the industry in my opinion. The fact that WOZ is still getting code updates 8 years later is amazing.

#2417 2 years ago
Quoted from bobukcat:

I don't see it in the WOZ club thread, I don't visit the ones for the other games because I don't own them.

Same situation, different game for me (GNR). So I edited my original post to indicate GNR owners thread.
With all the press on GNR, and as I am immersed in GNR only, I forget its an "All JJP" thread technically. oops!
Thanks for the reminder!

#2418 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

I'm not getting any deeper into this. You seem to be arguing quite successfully that a PC is just fine for pinball (as is Stern's system). I only want to comment on the quote above.
It's not an empty promise, and it's not that we will get around to it sometime in the future. We already do. The latest release of Woz, for example, is using the same OS and graphics drivers as GnR. I just updated our oldest game with our newest game's OS and motherboard/CPU/GPU support. Hobbit through Wonka also run on this same OS. I intend to update our OS again quite soon, and when I do all of our games will get another OS update (not just game code update). This is our standard. It's all automated and has no engineering cost to us other than me running some release scripts. How is that not already making your maintenance dream come true?

Technically, this is indeed good news. And well, your marketing department sucks because it's advertised absolutely nowhere that you can use GnR motherboard/graphics as a replacement to DialedIn, Woz, etc...

However I would point out that you can't buy a GnR motherboard/graphics board on JJP website (or any other JJP pin for that matter), Marco, or any other site that I could find. Marco does not even have a section on JJP CPU boards.

So for this promise of long term support to become true, then there's one last hurdle since the technical aspect is solved: document the required parts, ensure their availabilities on JJP website and other part distributors.

Or, make it work with any motherboard/GPU combination, regardless of processor model (AMD/Intel) and graphics board (AMD/NVIDIA) (within reason of course, we all know how complex this can become).

On a sidenote, I find it absolutely brilliant that JJP keeps releasing new code with new capabilities for older machine, where ROI is pretty much zero. Kudos for that.

Regards

#2419 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

However I would point out that you can't buy a GnR motherboard/graphics board on JJP website

Have you called or emailed JJP? They don't believe in the Internet thus their website isn't up to date. They been advising that it will be updated soon but it's taken longer to do so then it does for them to make/release a game!

no but seriously

#2420 2 years ago

Why is PPJ still making chunky peanut butter?

#2421 2 years ago
Quoted from EricHadley:

Why is PPJ still making chunky peanut butter?

Because chunky peanut butter is the only way to go….

#2422 2 years ago

Love me some chunky peanut butter!

#2423 2 years ago
Quoted from hiker2099:

I got my WW NIB a week ago... I absolutely am a fan of JJP. T

I pray for you and your NIB.
I hope that you remain a fan when your Wonka PF looks like a old, melted chocolate bar from the delamination of the clear and dirt getting between the art and clear. When that happens to your NIB; I hope you'll let us know you are still a fan.

I'm really serious; but hope you never have that problem.

10
#2424 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

Or, make it work with any motherboard/GPU combination, regardless of processor model (AMD/Intel) and graphics board (AMD/NVIDIA) (within reason of course, we all know how complex this can become).

This is almost how it works already. We unofficially support any modern Intel based system up to the release date of each ISO update. AMD processor based systems may work but I've not tried. Dialed In! will unofficially support most AMD GPU add-on cards for the Quantum Theater display. That being said, we've not tested anything other than what was officially used in each game's production run. If you use others, you're on your own as far as warranty/tech support, but at least they'll work. That is why it's not advertised. We don't want a bunch of customers thinking they are "upgrading" their system, then calling support for help, because they aren't officially supported. It's just a nice thing to know about in case things fail in the future.

#2425 2 years ago
4076DC23-3C1A-4942-9F24-34168523D514.gif4076DC23-3C1A-4942-9F24-34168523D514.gif
#2426 2 years ago
Quoted from SpyroFTW:

Because chunky peanut butter is the only way to go….

Blasphemy!

#2427 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

We unofficially support any modern Intel based system up to the release date of each ISO update.

It's also worth noting that I can probably buy a PC motherboard with RAM right now (not latest tech, but good enough to run my Hobbit) for less than the price of a Stern Node board.

Also, I have HTPCs in my house currently that have Dell and Asus motherboards that have been on 24/7 for at least 5 years. I am not even counting my old Dell server that has been on for the last decade. Granted, on the server, I had to replace one of the power supplies.

Also, I have an Atari ST emulator that runs on x86/x64 that run games from 1987. In 30 years, you might be able to emulate an x64 platform for your JJP machine way easier than trying to find an actual ARM-specific board.

#2428 2 years ago
Quoted from dr_light:

This is almost how it works already. We unofficially support any modern Intel based system up to the release date of each ISO update. AMD processor based systems may work but I've not tried. Dialed In! will unofficially support most AMD GPU add-on cards for the Quantum Theater display. That being said, we've not tested anything other than what was officially used in each game's production run. If you use others, you're on your own as far as warranty/tech support, but at least they'll work. That is why it's not advertised. We don't want a bunch of customers thinking they are "upgrading" their system, then calling support for help, because they aren't officially supported. It's just a nice thing to know about in case things fail in the future.

OK good to know, and kudos for that

But just so I understand : what happens if a customer has a faulty motherboard/graphics board ? Do you have hidden inventory and should the customer contact JJP they will get the option to buy it ? If so does this apply internationally ? Or does JJP states "buy any Intel motherboard and it should work" ?

Just curious, and I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just looking at the big picture support wise.

Sidenote: this whole "OS vs HW qualification/test" issue is not unique to JJP, I've had this issue raised on multiple occasions (Yocto vs Ubuntu vs RedHat vs whateverdistributionthecustomerwantstouse vs whatweprovide), so I'm not going to throw a stone here.

Quoted from Bendit:

It's also worth noting that I can probably buy a PC motherboard with RAM right now (not latest tech, but good enough to run my Hobbit) for less than the price of a Stern Node board.
Also, I have HTPCs in my house currently that have Dell and Asus motherboards that have been on 24/7 for at least 5 years. I am not even counting my old Dell server that has been on for the last decade. Granted, on the server, I had to replace one of the power supplies.
Also, I have an Atari ST emulator that runs on x86/x64 that run games from 1987. In 30 years, you might be able to emulate an x64 platform for your JJP machine way easier than trying to find an actual ARM-specific board.

Well I've had three motherboards die on me on the last five years. Granted they are kind of taxed in operation so I'm probably not representative of day to day usage, but still.

Server motherboard are another class altogether. They are not built around cost, they are built for robustness and 24/7 operation, and yes I also have server motherboards which are still alive and kicking after several years (although my SMC blade server has always been prone to memory failure for some reason).

But in the field, I've had multiple customers having physical failures of motherboard because of shock and vibrations when using standard PCIe graphics card. That's the part which is a concern to me honestly.

Your point on emulation is valid, and absolutely fair to state that x86 brings flexibility. But... so does ARM (see PinMame running on RPI... or any other emulator - Retropie, Recalbox, etc).

Cheers

#2429 2 years ago
Quoted from Ashram56:

OK good to know, and kudos for that
But just so I understand : what happens if a customer has a faulty motherboard/graphics board ? Do you have hidden inventory and should the customer contact JJP they will get the option to buy it ? If so does this apply internationally ? Or does JJP states "buy any Intel motherboard and it should work" ?
Just curious, and I'm not trying to stir the pot here, just looking at the big picture support wise.

Yes, contact JJP customer support. I'm in the software department and don't know inventory specifics.

#2430 2 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I pray for you and your NIB.
I hope that you remain a fan when your Wonka PF looks like a old, melted chocolate bar from the delamination of the clear and dirt getting between the art and clear. When that happens to your NIB; I hope you'll let us know you are still a fan.
I'm really serious; but hope you never have that problem.

Strangely, my Wonka with over 10K plays doesn't have that problem.

#2431 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

Strangely, my Wonka with over 10K plays doesn't have that problem.

And more strangely he has never owned a JJP buy yet he is certain! My Wonka is doing great and Loving it!

-1
#2432 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

he has never owned a JJP buy

Strangely, I've never jumped off a bridge ... but that doesn't mean watching others fall to their death doesn't impress upon me the the need to also jump off a bridge without a chute.
JJP quality suxs; and *I* am not stupid enough to buy a 12k self destructing machine.

#2433 2 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Strangely, I've never jumped off a bridge ... but that doesn't mean watching others fall to their death doesn't impress upon me the the need to also jump off a bridge without a chute.
JJP quality suxs; and *I* am not stupid enough to buy a 12k self destructing machine.

But apparently not smart enough to stay out of JJP threads that don't affect you. Weird!

#2434 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

But apparently not smart enough to stay out of JJP threads that don't affect you. Weird!

Pot, meet kettle.

#2435 2 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

JJP quality suxs; and *I* am not stupid enough to buy a 12k self destructing machine.

What "suxs" about their quality? I find their machines to be very good quality but the reason I am not looking to purchasing a new JJP machine and main reason for selling GnR was due to the poor quality of the Mirco playfield. I have zero trust in the fact that Mirco has improved anything with his playfields. Seeing, not only the JJP pf, other pf and issues made by Mirco I am straying away from anything with Mirco.

I think JJP's biggest flaw is continuing to accept the poor quality of Mirco, not addressing it and then stating publicly the issue was with a few machines and (basically) putting the blame on the owners for dong something to the pf.

Will be very interesting to see what happens to Toy Story.

#2436 2 years ago

Public thread, can't give two shats if you think my comments arent reasonable it or on point

#2438 2 years ago
Quoted from zaphX:

But apparently not smart enough to stay out of JJP threads that don't affect you. Weird!

He’s stealing a page out of your playbook.

#2439 2 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

He’s stealing a page out of your playbook.

[citation needed]

#2443 2 years ago

As an owner of all the JJP games I can say that the play field issues are very unfortunate. Fortunately I haven't had any major problems (yes I've had pooling). Whats really alarming to me is that JJP continues to go down the same path with their play fields knowing darn well its probably a problem. The other concern is their now charging customers (I don't care if its a discount) for an extra play field....just poor business in my mind, especially on an $11K machine....IMHO....

#2444 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

As an owner of all the JJP games I can say that the play field issues are very unfortunate. Fortunately I haven't had any major problems (yes I've had pooling). Whats really alarming to me is that JJP continues to go down the same path with their play fields knowing darn well its probably a problem. The other concern is their now charging customers (I don't care if its a discount) for an extra play field....just poor business in my mind, especially on an $11K machine....IMHO....

Pooling, giving distros the shaft for a cash grab, raising prices after release, blaming the customer, ignoring the issue, continued issues after THREE releases... The list goes on. I was their biggest cheerleader. Just look at my review of dialed in. Not anymore. I don't gamble.

#2445 2 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Pooling, giving distros the shaft for a cash grab, raising prices after release, blaming the customer, ignoring the issue, continued issues after THREE releases... The list goes on. I was their biggest cheerleader. Just look at my review of dialed in. Not anymore. I don't gamble.

I hear ya...they are riding the same market wave the other companies are riding so my guess is they don't really care. I've always been ok with paying for premium products, but in return I expect a certain level of quality and warranty. Nickel and dimming customers who paid top dollar for their product (i.e. replacement play field) is a complete joke in my mind.

#2446 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I hear ya...they are riding the same market wave the other companies are riding so my guess is they don't really care. I've always been ok with paying for premium products, but in return I expect a certain level of quality and warranty. Nickel and dimming customers who paid top dollar for their product (i.e. replacement play field) is a complete joke in my mind.

Yeah, it's just like the stock market. Everyone throws around money when times are good, but the newbs get a sharp wake-up on the downturn. The long game is never good for companies that ignore repeat business, unless they are in the tourism industry.

#2447 2 years ago
Quoted from Tranquilize:

Pooling, giving distros the shaft for a cash grab, raising prices after release, blaming the customer, ignoring the issue, continued issues after THREE releases... The list goes on. I was their biggest cheerleader. Just look at my review of dialed in. Not anymore. I don't gamble.

Dialed In is still a great game and none of them had pooling!And the sound was better for some reason?

#2448 2 years ago

The backbox speaker design in GNR is horrible. I’m thinking about doing it correctly as a future project

#2449 2 years ago
Quoted from thechakapakuni:

The backbox speaker design in GNR is horrible. I’m thinking about doing it correctly as a future project

Have you got the pin woffer .

#2450 2 years ago

While I’m sure that product is good, it’s the speaker placement that’s the issue. They’re facing up and the sound is being reflected up and out. That will never produce quality sound, this is a rookie maneuver. You can do this btw with low ranges or subs. The reflection actually helps in that case. But not for mids & highs. I would essentially be looking to mount something that faces directly out

17AEF3C4-B1B7-44A7-B1F2-071EA929B00F (resized).jpeg17AEF3C4-B1B7-44A7-B1F2-071EA929B00F (resized).jpeg

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