Quoted from Tranquilize:

I can't believe there's still a debate.
- Bad playfields, check.
-Altering warranty so it's useless, check.
- Greedily screwing over distros with #s, check.
- Blaming the customer, check.
- Raising prices on a flawed product mid-production, check.
- Ghosting customers in need of support, check.
- Avoiding recognition of issues for years, check.
Pinsiders: "Uh, hey guys, do you think the new run is okay?"

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Talking tough with Mirco is a fools game and an outright diversion. Mirco is not the issue. They are not the ones that put artwork under the posts. Drill PF holes too large for the posts; improperly fitting and over tightening posts at the JJP factory, etc. Ordering too thick of clear coat is also on JJP. Why do you keep blaming Mirco thinking they are the ones in control of JJPs product??? Mirco is just a vendor and does what JJP tells them to do. How long are you JJP fanboys going to keep trying to pass the buck and live in denial???
(Your talk of volume is also preposterous. You don’t, nor does any person other than JJP know the numbers they are producing and its for sure not thousands. They can only output around 40 a week, that much we do know. They’ve been at this for a year making GNR. Let’s give them say 40 weeks they were actually able to make that many, given part shortages. That’s only 1600 GNRs, which is doubtful with all the smart people that have pulled their orders because of poor quality products, no warranty, bad customer service and part shortages. Hugely doubtful that JJP has even made much more than around 1200 to be more accurate, given all the parameters. JJP is a tiny boutique company about the size of Spooky, but Spooky has their act together and makes a far superior product. Remember during an even longer time period, they only made 1,000 POTC.)

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Unbelievable that people are still willing to sacrifice their hard earned money,

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Talking tough with Mirco is a fools game and an outright diversion. Mirco is not the issue. They are not the ones that put artwork under the posts. Drill PF holes too large for the posts; improperly fitting and over tightening posts at the JJP factory, etc. Ordering too thick of clear coat is also on JJP. Why do you keep blaming Mirco thinking they are the ones in control of JJPs product??? Mirco is just a vendor and does what JJP tells them to do. How long are you JJP fanboys going to keep trying to pass the buck and live in denial???

Quoted from MrBubbles:

I was lucky with my GnR CE with regards to this. But this thread has me questioning my pre-order of the limited Willy Wonka run they're doing this month. If I pay 11k for pin that I'm iffy on anyway, and it's not perfect, I'll really be pissed. Has anyone heard if the newest run of WW LEs will be using better playfields or will this just be a run using playfields that have sat around for 2 years.

Quoted from Haymaker:

What? Lol this is almost completely Mirco's fault. Holy crap I haven't seen somebody be this wrong about so many things in one post in a long long time. JJP doesn't spec all this stuff out. They say theres a post here, ect. I don't put much faith in the overtightening/hole too big theory either thats already been fairly disproven by people much better versed in playfields than us. Lets not forget we see these same issues on Mirco's other playfields. Pooling under posts. Clear coat flying off in gigantic chunks with small blasts of air, AFM playfields with clear that has flaked off all over, ect. Mirco makes trash. We get it, you don't like JJP, but this is a stretch.

Quoted from jeffro01:

Except it's not. While I don't agree with jimwe5t when it comes to the games themselves, the themes, and/or their playability I think the poster is absolutely spot on here with regards to who's to blame. Yes Micro makes them but JJP KEEPS ACCEPTING THEM AND USING THEM IN PRODUCTION GAMES. Why? Because they have no choice due to the financial entanglements between Micro and JJP which is entirely JJPs fault. IF JJP actually cared about this and wanted to fix it they absolutely could but when the line to buy your defective products wraps around the building and your customers have stockholm syndrome, what's the incentive?
Micro isn't going to start making quality playfields if their reproductions are any indication so JJP has really one choice, find a different vendor and deal with the financial settlement with Micro. But... Again... Why do that if you're bean counting at JJP? Sales have never been better and clearly few seemed to care when they changed their warranty which should have been the final nail but nope... Here we are...
Honestly JJP couldn't have picked a better time in the history of this industry to be so horribly bad as a company... The market has never been hotter, and may never be hotter again who knows, and as such there are a lot of new people in this hobby with cash to burn and an addiction to steel balls and flashing lights... They'll never listen to the warnings and I get why but there are only so many customers with deep pockets and a desire to "roll the dice" that eventually this will end JJP. Unless of course they reverse course now, take the short term financial hit, and actually address this very long standing issue. However, I wouldn't hold my breath...
Jeff

Quoted from jeffro01:

JJP KEEPS ACCEPTING THEM AND USING THEM IN PRODUCTION GAMES. Why? Because they have no choice due to the financial entanglements between Micro and JJP which is entirely JJPs fault.

Quoted from Ashram56:

I kind of disagree.
While JJP indeed has a massive responsibility in the management of the issue, Mirco is the manufacturer of the playfield. As such, they are responsible for the quality of it. JJP, just like any integrator, buys a product with given specifications. In any industry, if the supplier fails to deliver (ie Mirco), the customer (ie JJP) is entitled for a corrective action plan and potentially compensation. The fact they are not pursuing that route is, frankly, baffling.
Pushing the blame on JJP on the basis of 'art under the post', 'thick clearcoat' is not relevant. If a supplier feels that the specifications given by the customer impact quality, they have to deny these requests. Again, that happens in every industry (and for that matter, I'm precisely dealing right now on a problem of that nature in my field, ie electronics).
Also, Mirco has a track record. There are multiple testimonies over multiple issues over multiple playfield reproductions, and for those JJP was completely out of the loop.
So in my opinion they are not responsible of the playfield quality itself
However they should have acknowledged the issue, implemented a corrective action plan, and adressed customer concerns, which they didn't. For that they are responsible.
And for that reason alone, no JJP for me in the foreseeable future.

Quoted from 27dnast:

Where’s your indisputable proof that there’s a financial entanglement? That’s a bold statement. I’d like to see some proof beyond a podcast rumor.

Quoted from jeffro01:

Except it's not. While I don't agree with jimwe5t when it comes to the games themselves, the themes, and/or their playability I think the poster is absolutely spot on here with regards to who's to blame. Yes Micro makes them but JJP KEEPS ACCEPTING THEM AND USING THEM IN PRODUCTION GAMES. Why? Because they have no choice due to the financial entanglements between Micro and JJP which is entirely JJPs fault. IF JJP actually cared about this and wanted to fix it they absolutely could but when the line to buy your defective products wraps around the building and your customers have stockholm syndrome, what's the incentive?
Micro isn't going to start making quality playfields if their reproductions are any indication so JJP has really one choice, find a different vendor and deal with the financial settlement with Micro. But... Again... Why do that if you're bean counting at JJP? Sales have never been better and clearly few seemed to care when they changed their warranty which should have been the final nail but nope... Here we are...
Honestly JJP couldn't have picked a better time in the history of this industry to be so horribly bad as a company... The market has never been hotter, and may never be hotter again who knows, and as such there are a lot of new people in this hobby with cash to burn and an addiction to steel balls and flashing lights... They'll never listen to the warnings and I get why but there are only so many customers with deep pockets and a desire to "roll the dice" that eventually this will end JJP. Unless of course they reverse course now, take the short term financial hit, and actually address this very long standing issue. However, I wouldn't hold my breath...
Jeff

Quoted from jeffro01:

To provide what you're asking for would require documents from someone that I don't have access too... To your point though, I can't prove it. Especially not indisputable proof and "I've been told" (which I have) by someone in the know is far from proof of anything so I get you there...
Honestly can you come up with a better explanation then? Again, still not proof, just asking.
Jeff

Quoted from 27dnast:

Honestly, I think these playfields come to the factory looking good and leave the factory looking good. I assume JJP, behind the scenes is trying to work it out... and it appears they are making changes that are working, as there are far fewer issues. At least it seems that way.
Remember, things didn't work out so well with Bader and WOZ... total mystery as to why.
What I can't explain is why they have removed all warranty coverage of the playfield, itself.
That said, the facts are on the table. People that don't want to look at pooling (and people that are concerned they aren't getting value for their money) are under zero obligation to buy. And, by the same stroke, people that just want to play a game and don't assign alot of weight to pooling/chipping, are free to buy away.
As for Mirco and JJP... there are a lot of rumors that fly around with the "heard it from someone that knows" tag. I'd really like to hear it, on the record, from someone at the company.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

How are they trying to work it out, covering the issues with washers so you can't see the defects?
This is exactly why they have removed all warranty coverage of the playfield - incase you look under the washers.
Just don't look behind the curtain and the illusion holds

Quoted from jeffro01:

this affects every game JJP makes.

Quoted from Bendit:

No. The Hobbit is the exception.

Quoted from Vespula:

New factory, new workers, post shutdown/pandemic. It's all related . Not excluding playfields but these are global quality issues. Could partially explain older games less problems.

Quoted from Vespula:

New factory, new workers, post shutdown/pandemic.

Quoted from zr11990:

No offence but what a crock of shit. Mirco has had issues with his stuff ever since he has started but up until now he has made good and all his stuff is done with robots so the quality wouldn't be affected by the scam. I dont get why you people make excuses for these people.

Quoted from Vespula:

Not making excuses just saying this is all contributing... Even an emotionally oriented male should be able to get that logic.

Quoted from captjoeb:

Simple. Because they’ve been getting away with it.

Quoted from zr11990:

But JJP is buying them from Mirco and selling the pin with the bad playfield. While Mirco is the blame for the shit PF, that is JJPs issue to take up with Mirco Ultimately, JJP is to blame for the buyer of the pin getting a falling apart PF because JJP knows they are shit and they continue to put them in pins and sell them to people while refusing to do absolutely nothing about it except lay the blame on the consumer. At this point however we all know that if you buy a game from JJP the chances are high that you will get a shit PF so you really have no room to bitch about it. Play stupid games win stupid prizes.

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

JJP IS RESPONSIBLE!!!!
regardless if the root cause is Mirco.

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

JJP IS RESPONSIBLE!!!!
regardless if the root cause is Mirco.

Quoted from 27dnast:

I assume JJP, behind the scenes is trying to work it out...

Quoted from jimwe5t:

Welcome to the JJP apologist club. We’ll screw you over big time and you’ll endlessly apologize and make up excuses for us so we don’t ever need to fix anything club. Best business ever! Our customers pay through the nose and then when we (JJP) deliver crap, we know they’ll endlessly make up reasons why we make crap and pass the buck club. And those that don’t like it, we’ll just label them trolls or haters.

Quoted from Zitt:

Because Jack only wants your money - cares not about delivering a quality, desirable product.
Seriously; if he cared about anything but money - he'd own up to the problem.
Having screwed the customer on 3 different games over... what 6 years? Speaks volumes.
Just send him money via go fund him; and he'll be just as happy
Making Playfields isn't hard... it's pretty damn clear that Mirco is a hack and he should be run from this hobby with Pitchforks.

Quoted from Zitt:

It's my understanding that a soft clear would be obvious at assembly stage. That said; who really knows because JJP isn't being transparent about a darn thing.
I thought I read somewhere in one of the many threads that a number of games show pooling on the first unbox. not after 100 or so plays. Since I haven't been crazy enough to be bitten by this issue ... I'm only speaking from the multitude of threads on this issue across all the vendors.
Personally; I feel JJPs QA assembling is just simply trash / non-existent. They just throw shit together and ship it with very little care about the overall quality of the product. I'd bet there is an incoming quality check they could do to weed out these PFs. But they are more interested in taking your money rather than doing a good job.
That said; I wouldn't want to risk a 12k pile of cash on my understanding. The best thing to do is just cancel your order demanding a refund for the deposit.

Quoted from Zitt:

Why wait? It's a given as people continue to buy even when they have no solutions.
If it is truly Toy Story; we all know there will be digital printing with adherence issues just like the past 4 games.
People will continue to throw them money because they have to have the new shiny thing.
JJP hasn't learned a lesson; to be honest, they've learned they can take 1k from people and they will follow up with balance just for the fear of loosing out.
I seriously see nothing in this thread or others that indicated enough people will take action / not buy their spots.

This is the most naive thing I've ever heard someone say.
Non Refundable deposits with a know super defect like this is defiantly them fuxing people over . There is no other way to look at it.

Quoted from Zitt:

Because three or four games over 8 or do years indicate they have no intention of fixing. Add their behavior of no remedies Is a further indication of their inability to solve

Quoted from Zitt:

You get a downvote for this.
They've had ample time... and FOUR_ games to fix it.
It's clear you have drunk the koolaid.
I'm of the camp that believe JJP gives no care they they are shipping garbage... cause people like you continue to buy.

Quoted from Zitt:

Umm... 4 games ago; they didn't learn the lesson. 3 games; same. 2 games, ditto, last game... same routine.
How many times do you need to get punched in the face to believe they really did mean to punch you?
I'm confident; JJP will not make any changes because they haven't and now... aren't even standing behind the crap-tastic product on the latest game. How many data points does it take people?
I'm confident that TS will be another shut-up and take my money orgy and we'll be right here talking about the confidence that the next game will have all of this resolved.

Quoted from Zitt:

"fair go" left the building at Game #2 with this problem. "fair go" was years ago.
Sure; they want to build the best product possible - when it's easy, cheap, and quick.
It's clear that making a decent playfield with adhering clear isn't any of those three so they are keen to keep passing the garbage to you the customer.
Evidence speaks volumes; if you think there isn't enough evidence - see my previous comment about getting punched

Quoted from Zitt:

We could hope.
That said; they haven't learned for the last 4 games... so not convinced they are capable of change.
I'm actually thinking:
A) The cancellations were minimal; too many people like PanzerFreak bought anyway because well; he stated the reasons in his admission which I read to be emotion not logic.
B) If they are indeed making changes; it's only because they are tired of Mirco's Sh1t to be honest. If you can count on your vendors; you have problems.

Quoted from Zitt:

lmao
They've been tryin unsuccessfully for 8 years over 3 games?
If so; they are have the worst engineering team on the planet.

Quoted from 27dnast:

You only need to make your opinion known once.

Quoted from Zitt:

No apparently not...
Repetition is important people people like you still given them money.
Admit JJP doesn't care about making a quality product; then maybe - just maybe I'll consider my 'job' done.

Quoted from Zitt:

Non, apparemment pas...
La répétition est importante pour les gens comme vous qui leur donnent encore de l'argent.
Admettez que JJP ne se soucie pas de fabriquer un produit de qualité ; alors peut-être - juste peut-être que je considérerai mon « travail » comme terminé.

Quoted from Stef95:

"your job" is of no use except lashing out with your few loyal friends to support you in your obsession. Realize that you are only a minority and that if you really liked pinball you still admit that these are great games and that JJP has revolutionized pinball. A little objectivity won't hurt you. Greeting.

Quoted from 27dnast:

JJP might not warranty their playfields to the max, but I've seen zero evidence that they don't care about making a quality product. That's ridiculous.

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Where your argument breaks down is that if this was such a small issue as you assert, then JJP would happily take every step necessary to replace these defective playfields. After all, if it is only a "minority" of owners, then by your own argument it would only be a small expense to the company to take care of these issues.
I assert that the issue is much larger than that. Much, much larger.

Quoted from 27dnast:

"People like you." I've seen zero evidence that they don't care about making a quality product.

Quoted from Zitt:

:Insert facepalm meme here:
The evidence is overwhelming. You rose colored glasses don't need any tweaking, that's sure

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

Where your argument breaks down is that if this was such a small issue as you assert, then JJP would happily take every step necessary to replace these defective playfields. After all, if it is only a "minority" of owners, then by your own argument it would only be a small expense to the company to take care of these issues.
I assert that the issue is much larger than that. Much, much larger.

Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I am 100% positive they care about their product quality - I just have not seen that care translate into a solution to fix their PF issues and back up their customers they shipped defective product to.
It's sad, becuase I really would like to buy one of their games

Quoted from PinFever:

i agree and the word quality SHOULD NOT be stamped on the playfield like it is on the bottom left of the playfield . Especially with my flaked off after pooling playfield art went bye bye . And a the washer kit washers does not cover it

Quoted from 27dnast:

Like I said, I agree they should work with paying customers that purchased prior to the change to their warranty. And it totally sucks that some customers have chipping art. No disagreements.
Sounds like you are making the right choice not to buy (for you) – bummer, because life is short. These pinball decisions aren't life or death - it's about having a sliver of fun sprinkled into real life. I say: go have some fun!

Quoted from Yelobird:

Thought they sent you a no cost replacement playfield when you had an issue? Did they take it back?

Quoted from JohnTTwo:

My distro honestly told me today. Chips, pooling, flaking, art lifting and you are on your own zero will be done about it. Then asked would you like your money back or machine delivered?
At least it up front now buyer beware.

Quoted from smalltownguy2:

If your distro is who I think it is, then he's a smart man for telling you that up front. He's more connected to the problem than most, that's for sure.