Smoooooooooth as glass my friend.

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Then you have this super zoomed in pic that I see here all the time. Looks similar to me, just more zoomed in:
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I'll take BOTH of these over mirco train wreck flaking.

I used to paint cars late 80s early 90s and yes, the acrylic clear is not what it used to be. I actually remember the texture and clarity also wasn’t as good when they banned it. Even with a good wet sand it was never as clear & durable. This makes 90s original PFs the platinum standard and curious when people will start marketing & touting this on pin sales. My Indy is shiny and perfect. The acrylics were deadly tho, I quit painting after my left eye started having spasms after a booth spray. Quality comes at a cost

Now Chaka don't lie. You only saw the 80s on TV!

You keep forgetting the waterfall is a time machine

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Oh snap, Right!

Daddy do something!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

I have all the seasons of that series on DVD. Love it!

Good point, we need to talk about this till enough people are aware to avoid being sucked into the next JJP new shiny, as it will surely have all these same issues, just like the last 4 games have had.

Interesting on the GnR owners thread how some are posting that the PFs are fixed or better now, and on the same page others are posting pics of pooling and artwork tearing under the JJP black washers.

i am not buying the PF's are fixed part . That would mean their was actually a problem .. ha

I've heard from a reliable source that all GnR PFs have already been supplied to JJP, so not likely anything has been fixed.

If you think your rants will stop sales, you’re wrong.

Maybe JJP plucked Steve away to get access to Sterns internal processes, like playfields? Stern isn't perfect with playfields, but they are leagues ahead of JJP.

I think the most sad part is the destruction of great games. It´s like if picasso insisted on doing all his masterpieces on toiletpaper.

fwiw this was meant as extreme sarcasm

Yes that was a transitional period and a lot of that stuff sucked. I am always reminded of the 3rd gen F-bodies that got the new water based paint and had sheets of paint flaking off and/or hella damaged clear by the mid 90's. Things have changed a lot since then though.

When somebody can make a clear thats harder than a carbon steel ball and won't flex into the even softer substrate below it though, let me know. Until then, its gonna be dimple time.

Here's how JJP used to make their playfields. This was a point of pride for them at one time.

One thing that stood out at the end of the video was when he said “Playfields are the heart of our pinball machines.”

This is absolutely beautiful, I think you'll agree.

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Customers fault, clearly you took the game out of the box and played it.

They already have .....
Maybe not his rant specifically, but the posting of issues on this forum directly stopped me from buying a GNR

Well sure. It will stop some sales.

Me, I'm on the list for JJP7 CE already.

JJP is hoping the large majority of their customers are like you and don't give 2 shits about quality,
they seem to base their business model on it

I wish I had the customer base that JJP has.
Would be great to be able to send out poor quality products, have customers send me more money to pay for "the fix", and be knocking at my door to buy the next thing. I mean, can you ask for anything better? Really, my hats off to JJP. While every other company on the planet is trying their best to produce quality products, and fixing/replacing defective ones at their cost - JJP has figured out the magic formula. Bravo

I agree w/ a few things he says because its true but Stern is NO better. They have their own issues that continue. The best built pins right now are Spooky and American.

WHY??? I have a ton of respect for you and all of the support you've provided the community on a number of games but... WHY???

Some things I just cannot wrap my head around and this is one of them...

Jeff

I think this is more true for operators...where quality, price, and service are primary decision-making factors. I'm not so sure about the home-use only buyers/collectors, though.

JJP should care about quality because the home-use collector crowd can spend their money on other forms of entertainment, such as a different pinball machine, a new car, or a family vacation. However, pinball machines are a creative endeavor and that makes them somewhat unique, much like a movie or a piece of art. Some people are obviously drawn to it, regardless if others feel different. It's not like this is a widget or some other commodity. There is only one manufacturer that is producing Guns N' Roses (CE) . I don't think it's a magic formula. They have a unique and creative product that people are willing to purchase for various reasons and regardless of customer service or quality of product. Nevertheless, I think we can all agree that JJP can and should do better.

I like playing the games, simple as that. They are not museum pieces for me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Honestly, they are not for me either - but I do like them to look nice and try and take care of them.
I don't obsess over dimples and other minor imperfections, but I just don't want to have to look at and deal with a chipping peeling playfield if I don't have to. And, I do not have to when there are other higher quality products that will make me just as happy.
Also the poor customer service others are reporting is a real turn off, I would rather give my money to a company like Spooky

End of the day, this thread is important to highlight the issues JJP has with it's products and customer service so others know what they are getting into.
Those that are aware and don't care - play and enjoy - but I will not be a customer.

Fair enough I suppose. For me it's not an issue of "museum pieces" but simple basic quality. For the prices being charged, I have an expectation of quality and I don't think that's unreasonable or out of line. Someone has to buy these pieces of junk NIB so people like me can buy the weeded out ones that aren't junk.

Jeff

I hear you and respect that. For me, an extra $500 and a fun (to me) project to refresh it later is acceptable. Understand it's not for everyone.

Believe it or not, I totally get where you're coming from on that... If JJP would just freely offer a replacement PF when people have this issue then that'd be good enough for me. However, they've decided to try to obfuscate the issue and change their warranty accordingly...

Thanks,
Jeff

Same here.

Well, actually, I had already put a deposit down on a GnR LE with my distributor, but I canceled because of the PF issues.

Now I know you are certifiable

Curious, what do you do when the $500 replacement PF starts pooling, peeling, and chipping - buy another?

Nice to see Butch again!

I wonder if he's now glad to be away from this shit show.

No one ever installs those. It's only used as a security blanket when selling your game later on.

Personally, I will send the spare PF out to Ron Kruzman and have him fix it. With 75% of his business being fixing Mirco playfields, he knows what he's doing, and his work seems bulletproof once it's installed. Should I HAVE to do this to get a good playfield? No. Is that where we're at if I WANT that? Yes.

What is that? Another grand?

In the current market, playfield concerns will doubtfully impact sales. Heck, deeproot proved you can literally sell vaporware, so if customers are willing to buy something that doesn't exist, they're going to be even more willing to throw cash at a physical asset with questionable quality and one of the worst warranties in the industry. (Count me in as one of those numbnuts with my GnR pre-order )

The real question is whether this will come back to bite JJP if the market cools off a little, or they release a title that gets less hype than GnR.

He hasn't said concretely as he can't get a GnR PF to run tests on, but it should be in the neighborhood of $700.

The labor for the not-inconsequential playfield swap I'd have to do not included for those that would have to pay someone to do it for them.

Derrick ol buddy, you are unusual and don’t care your JJP product looks like crap. You’ve drunk the koolaid. More power to you, since having your machines play and look nice is not your gig. You don’t mind spending large sums of money, only to be required to work on your JJP machines endlessly to keep them semi playing.

For most of us, we care, so when JJP stopped caring 4 games ago, we should too. This absolutely affects sales, as more and more become aware of the JJP fallacy of “quality” products. Even JJP knows there is no quality products produced by them and they’ve re-crafted their warranty to reflect that, by making it a “no warranty” policy.

*Derek please, I'm not an oil gathering appliance

Also, I've posted my pics with the cliffy coverups a few times - does that really "look like crap?" It's not ideal but it's certainly passable for me.

Whoops, Derek it is.

Much appreciated Common error I've fought my entire life.

I live in a world where jimwe5t and zaphX are able to cordially communicate comfortably in the presence of one another. Both sides of the spectrum and yet manage to be able to shake hands in the name of pinball.

Tonight, I am a proud to live in that world.

I guess I'll remind people of my offer to help those in need that get new playfields but are unable/unwilling to do playfield swaps themselves. 100 bucks and the old playfield is all I ask.

This offer, again, is for people that get screwed on new machines that had defective playfields only, not a cunning deal maker looking for some sucker to do a playfield swap on a project for you.

Dang, my gears were starting to turn!

In a world of incivility it's nice when we can disagree without being disagreeable.

What I see is a lack of adhesion & problems with the finish clear not hardening correctly. Mirco seems to be having some problems with his process. Maybe it is the Human portion of his production, & not the robots. He has shown the robots doing, cnc, inserting the lenses, & finish clear videos. It would be nice if he came out & explained how some playfields are bad.

First you have to admit that there is a problem. He can't even do that.

From everything I have seen and read/watched from experts - One of the big issues is the wood doesn't absorb the ink with the current printing process like it did when PF's where screen printed. If the ink is not attaching to the PF it, doesn't mater what you do with the clear on top of it.

Kind of no need to when people cant help themselves and keep "buy buy buy"'ing

Cant be the whole truth, since there are videos with plastic flaking under the aprons where it should adere to bare wood.

As it works now mirco clear is just a terribad pf-protector sloppy glued on.