Does it matter? I own zero, but have played them all plenty and basically agree with his assessment. Do I have to buy a game I don't like to have an opinion?

Wiggly posts. Hmm.

In all seriousness... WTF are you talking about???

A better question is why are we discussing the speed of JJP games in a playfield defect thread?

It's either this or work.

The magical disappearing ball, man keep up lol! Like the new dead colors by the way...

I think GOT LE/PRE is the worst offender of the magical disappearing ball in modern pinball.

WW if you cant see the ball you must be on the shorter height range since I can see the ball fine at 6ft tall or your just looking to bitch about something! WW is slower compared to my Sterns but its not WOZ slow.

DI slow for modern game; absolutely.
Not seeing a ball confusing to me; umm, that's weird.

How about Tommy mode in Tommy? Can't see the ball then... I guess that machine sucked too?

Oh, and faulty playfields suck just to stay on topic.

So what about WPT... which stops you, but keeps the ball where you can see it?

I'm trying to flush out is it 'seeing the ball' or really 'the break in action' that you are opposed to.

Well, kinda yeah

Former WOZ owner here and agree that JJP flippers suck. I'd go so far to say they're the worst in the industry now that Spooky sorted out the R&M issues. Been playing the hell out of that game for the past month and the flippers are much snappier and consistent than JJP.

The GnR on location here has been removed, but before it went it was sloooow. Right ramp shots just kinda made it there and meandered around. Left ramp shots sometimes wouldn't even make it to the UL flipper. The only way to get any speed on the ball was to tee off and shoot on-the-fly, using the rebound to help get momentum. Not good when you prefer to play in control.

You’ll be waiting a lot longer than that.

Didn’t you see the black washers? They already solved the problem

well yes, its not as STERN
JJP (and AP for what i know) are playing/remind me the touch of B/W from the 90... does this means the game is bad ?

I agree with this for sure - closest I have felt to a 90s B/W

You must be fit to be tied in your attack from mars.

Also bad. My friends and I posted a cheeky RGP review when WPT was on test, calling out the Stabby & Stoppy posts for catching nearly every ramp shot. Steve was not pleased.

Either, but both is the worst. Thanks for your concern!

Gotta give 'em credit though: despite Steve's annoyance, the code was updated to allow disabling of Stabby and Stoppy. Thank you Keefer

Excellent detective work! That game is great enough that I can live with an occasional virtual lock or saucer explosion. Put on a great show and all is forgiven. Waiting for the ball to walk through AIQ's subway, though? zzz

Agree that it takes a long time for no reason, but... I mean you can sorta see it. Lol

Y'all must have been playing seriously worn out games. A clean and shopped AFM will easily derail the center ramp return into the shooterlane due to the crazy ball speed. I never had ANY properly shopped WPC play like a modern JJP.

Proper game strategy is to kill saucers during multiball, where they go *poof* with nary a pause. Then it's dirty pool time!

^ This! I remember shopping out my re-import TOTAN. Rebuilt flippers felt like they were gonna knock out the back panel.

But have you ever had a modern JJP play like a WPC? My Wonka when pitch is set a little steeper and flipper power dialed in is similar.

Honestly, no. Hobbit was just as wimpy as WOZ - shooting the middle ramps was "I think I can.. (u-turn) maybe not." Dialed In and Wonka seem to play OK but could be that smooth Lawlor design. Never got any sense of speed from those games but they shot nicely. Pirates seemed to be a struggle to make either ramp unless the shot was perfect. GnR flat-out couldn't make the ramp at times.

I completely agree with the below - and it might be the Lawlor design as you can see I have several in my collection to compare to. Im not saying its the "exact" same but whenever I hear people say JJP is to slow I have to disagree when it comes to Wonka specifically. Still think they are similar

For me, Wonka ramps are very much in the makeable range for JJP flipper power, and the shots flow, but it's all at a leisurely pace. Which is fine. Just not my cuppa.

Well I've owned plenty of WPC machines and my DI is just weaker, its just a fact (full power).
Doesn't make it a bad game at all, but it csn be annoying.

I suspect some of this sloppy flipper talk is the overheating fade issue which is annoying at best and after 30 minutes of play it's noticeable and frustrating. If you haven't played with the tbreeze fans then only the first 30 minutes in a fresh first game are worth talking about. After that the fade does affect negatively.
I also wonder how much the pitch of the game contributed to some opinions here. I could see how both a Lower pitch PLUS flipper fade could feel like slo-mo neo fighting in the matrix... Add in having an adversity to hidden balls, and generally apathy towards guns and roses music or even music pins in general and you've just found yourself in the wrong topic completely... Unless of course the only thing you like better than pinball is pinball bashing.

I have to remind myself this is a derailed playfield topic. Forgot.

Except for GnR, of course?

Not in my case. JJP flippers feel weak to me immediately on a cold, fresh game. I seldom play a JJP game for more than 30 minutes so I dunno about fade.

This statement just hit my lol funny bone!

Both my WOZ and DI LE are sharp and snappy. No complaints. Anyone seeing otherwise must have low power situation or haven't adjusted coil settings.

Have you ever owned one or had one in your house? Funny I agree with you specifically when it comes to JJP games on location. just have had a different experience in a home environment.

My WW definitly fades after about 20 minutes or even less sometimes. The right ramp gets harder and harder to line up because the shot position off the flipper keeps changing. I never noticed it on my other JJPs they were just underpowered feeling and if you cranked up the power more then say 2 points made the geometry of the shots feel off.

To keep on topic my Feb 2020 supposedly after pooling issue fixed Wonka has the smallest amount of pooling on the top posts of each sling but i put mylar washers on so hope it never changes. Hasnt gotten worse since I got the game so crossing my fingers the mylar helps.

yeah it's nothing to do with fade - it's all about how they are driven. GNR and POTC are the same way... the ball never snaps like it does if you just came off a newer stern. And PROC gamess.. ugh.. they start off miserable.

Regarding weak flippers: out of the box, it seems that the flipper settings are low. If you bump them up by one, that seems "normal" and good to me.

Please stop with this classic canned JJP excuse; "Well they work fine in our factory, maybe a power issue where your game is?"

We're literally a group of game collectors, we know when there's a diff'rence.

And im not talking aboot fade either.

Dunno about the other PROCs, but Spooky's R&M is very snappy after the flipper code update couple months ago. Like night and day better.

That's based on the two games that I own. So it's not an excuse. It's my experience... it's my opinion.

Every time I've played a JJP on location or at a show, they feel sluggish and underpowered. But, my two home machines play fresh and hot. Say what you will, but that's a fact.

This, right here, is disturbing.

It's not too surprising that JJP would move from an "everything's covered" 90 day warranty to essentially copying Stern's warranty language. Following the market leader is usually a safe bet, and the limited written warranty doesn't seem to have hurt Stern's sales any. The surprise to me is that JJP apparently made the change mid-stream during GnR production, as opposed to just quietly slipping the new warranty language into the manual for whatever the next game is.

Regardless, given the wholesale revisions of the warranty language I'd think that anyone who preordered before the the language changed has a good argument for getting their down-payment back because they're not getting everything they bargained for when they cut the deposit check.

Yeah, that's why I said 'start off...' -- aka until someone massages the implementation.

Lol. Yeah right. They cost cut everything, but subways were just a coincidence?

Met Prem has a subway, but it's used for locks only. Player can easily see what's going on, no losing track of the ball.

EHOH also has a subway, but again integrated into a pause in gameplay (collecting/killing deadheads).

So yea, I think player perspective had something to do with it.

And AIQ Premium. Sounds like cost cutting to me.

That's exactly what I find disturbing

Stern has "flipper fade" too. It's most noticeable on STH and being able to hit the Demo shot consistently. Had to install the flipper fans.

I notice it mostly on the upper left flipper on Wonka, more of a lag in response sometimes. Not so much on power.

Owned, no. But I've played all of them in home collections, including a GnR with the flipper strength turned up.

Stockholm syndrome.

I don't buy newer pins because of this they just don't last like the 90s do I think it's because they can't build them like the 90s machines it would cost too much and wouldn't sell them for the money it would cost too do it that way plus like everything else in the world they also don't want anything too last 30plus years they want you too keep buying every 5 years or so

Talking about flipper power seems a bit silly in this thread. JJP makes an incredible product, its just a major kick in the dick they cant be bothered to fix playfield issues. As a community, fanboys of either company should enjoy each others company and occasionally each others game, and all agree that no pinball company should be this inept when it comes to making a piece of wood with a protective coating on it. Its 2021 FFS.

This is exactly the point I was making and then got dog piled on by the few JJP fanboys that won’t listen to reason, lol.

Again you’re making the exact same points I’m making. JJP fan club boys are enraged at the truth and always attempt to denigrate the messengers of truth. It is hilarious that JJP cheerleaders can only think I’m ragging on JJP. Not attempting to do that, only expressing the areas of weakness in their games so hopefully they will take a hard look and change. JJP has some good ideas and I buy their games too. Just slow clumsy, game play and weak flipper action is getting tiresome. Eric is young and inexperienced designer, so this is to be expected. Hopefully he’ll improve. Pat on the other hand has made the 2 best offerings from JJP, but both machines needed a few more white woods and R&D to hold up to his TZ, AF, etc. efforts.