(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

7 months ago


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#1051 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

The craziest part of all this is, any other industry would never get away with treating customers as poorly as JJP does and still stay in business. It honestly is mind blowing anyone puts up with such inferior product at these crazy high prices from JJP. It’s not that I don’t like their games, they are fine, its just their very poor quality that is so unacceptable.

The way JJP is handling this is poor, no doubt.

But never getting away with it in any other industry is just not true.

I race RC cars, one manufacturer came out with a new model. It had a couple weak components that would break easily. The parts were completely unavailable the first 6 months the car was out. No communication from the manufacturer, nothing.

People sitting there with essentially a paper weight. The only way to get parts was to buy another entire kit.

These were things that made the car completely unoperational until parts were made available.

#1052 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I'm now considering buying as reports of pooling / chipping with the latest build games have dropped significantly.

You keep saying this and as someone who has a GnR LE on order I want to believe it, but I see no evidence of it.

Can you elaborate?

20
#1053 5 months ago

This is like a battered persons syndrome thing... You know JJP hasn't fixed this, we all know they haven't fixed this, but yet you have people here that are still like "well, maybe they fixed it this time and I have to have this game"... PEOPLE... JJP HAS NOT FIXED ANYTHING AND NO, WASHERS ARE NOT A FIX... Okay, taking a deep breath now... Another good analogy is watching a bad horror flick where people keep going into the basement... Either way, the ONLY way JJP learns here is if their sales are affected. Keep buying them and I'll guarantee you we'll have a version of this thread for their next title, and the one after that, and so on and so forth...

Jeff

#1054 5 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

You keep saying this and as someone who has a GnR LE on order I want to believe it, but I see no evidence of it.
Can you elaborate?

Just observations from here and the JJP Pinball Fans Facebook group, reports of playfield issues on recent builds have dropped heavily. However, there was just a report of pooling from a May build owner in the GNR owners thread...This is on a game with the longer posts, nylon nuts, and black washers on the problem posts. The owner reported that one post with a black washer still had some pooling and that he used an iron to get it back to normal. The owner also reported that the clear is very soft.

It's report like these that makes me want to cancel my order, even with being at the $9500 price point. Using washers and irons on a $10k+ game...ugh. It seems like JJP may know that the playfields have issues and are just doing whatever they can do prevent pooling / chipping. As a customer it would be nice to buy a game with the playfield issues resolved and no large washers installed all over the place.

#1055 5 months ago
Quoted from RobT:

You keep saying this and as someone who has a GnR LE on order I want to believe it, but I see no evidence of it.
Can you elaborate?

My WW CE would also like to believe too.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Just observations from here and the JJP Pinball Fans Facebook group, reports of playfield issues on recent builds have dropped heavily. However, there was just a report of pooling from a May build owner in the GNR owners thread...This is on a game with the longer posts, nylon nuts, and black washers on the problem posts. The owner reported that one post with a black washer still had some pooling and that he used an iron to get it back to normal. The owner also reported that the clear is very soft.
It's report like these that makes me want to cancel my order, even with being at the $9500 price point. Using washers and irons on a $10k+ game...ugh. It seems like JJP may know that the playfields have issues and are just doing whatever they can do prevent pooling / chipping. As a customer it would be nice to buy a game with the playfield issues resolved and no large washers installed all over the place.

My WW CE definitely has soft clear coat. I'm not having the chipping or art problems folks are having here but the clear, like I said, is just dried pancake syrup. It's my first and last JJP. I know we like our stuff new, but I would pay extra to have a machine that had 250 plays from JJP's factory itself. Burn-in tests don't reveal this stuff.

#1056 5 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Nah, JJP's customer service sucks and they should be doing alot more than they're doing to look after their customers. It is ridiculous to spend 10 hours damage proofing your game before playing it. And if you dont, being given a washer to cover the chip.

Wonder why Barry and my distro took such good care of me? Do you own a JJP with issues?

#1057 5 months ago

My take on this comes from Radio Shack's TRS80 computer that they sold in 1977. I put $100 dollars down and got on the waiting list. This also got me on the TRS80 customer monthly newsletter mailing list. So I was waiting for about 5 months, and every month I got the monthly customer newsletter with an article on how you can repair your computer without having to take it back to Radio Shack. At the end of 5 months of newsletters, I already had a major list of preventative or corrective actions I was going to have to make after taking it out of the box, even before I started to use it. That was enough for me, I went and got my deposit back and cancelled the order. If I had a JJP GnR on order and could get my deposit back, or put toward another title? Damn straight I would. I don't buy $10k toys that require a shop job right out of the box. That is just f'ed -the fuck- upped.

18
#1058 5 months ago

Putting washers under the posts like that raises the height of the rubber ring and changes the action. Now the ball is hitting the underside of the rubber and being driven downward into the playfield instead of a clean lateral rebound.

They're not really fixing anything; they're just creating new problems.

#1059 5 months ago

^ Old school heads know the score.

#1060 5 months ago

Washers will just move the pooling to around the washer, IMO.

#1061 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

My take on this comes from Radio Shack's TRS80 computer that they sold in 1977. I put $100 dollars down and got on the waiting list. This also got me on the TRS80 customer monthly newsletter mailing list. So I was waiting for about 5 months, and every month I got the monthly customer newsletter with an article on how you can repair your computer without having to take it back to Radio Shack. At the end of 5 months of newsletters, I already had a major list of preventative or corrective actions I was going to have to make after taking it out of the box, even before I started to use it. That was enough for me, I went and got my deposit back and cancelled the order. If I had a JJP GnR on order and could get my deposit back, or put toward another title? Damn straight I would. I don't buy $10k toys that require a shop job right out of the box. That is just f'ed -the fuck- upped.

What if you also got the other title?

22
#1062 5 months ago

God. Those washers look so freaking bad……….

#1063 5 months ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

f I had a JJP GnR on order and could get my deposit back, or put toward another title?

Sorry, but the deposit is non refundable at jjp.
Makes you feel better, right?

#1064 5 months ago

I have a June 2021 build on an LE. The upper playfield has a tiny washer on it. I am going to add one of the clear washers. Does anyone know if that lone post has a screw on the bottom holding it on? I'm worried that if I loosen the post and a bolt falls off the bottom I'm going to have to remove the upper playfield.

-1
#1065 5 months ago

Hello All

I am in full agreement with many that have said vote with your wallet. Nothing can be more true. Now having said that I am about to pickup an LE that is still in the box. I am paying a fair value fir the game but certainly the most I have ever paid. Also this is the first new machine I have ever had. This thread has been very helpful in identifying issues. While I am certain that my game will eventually have them, with the amount that I play any of my games, I’ll probably be dead before it turns into a real issue!

The theme is, for me, a good one. Don’t like all their stuff but, personally, if I compare this game with LZ, which I just saw on location in Akron, Ohio for example, this title blows it away. Just aesthetically it is IMO superior. Maybe that is what others are hanging their hat on as well. It is just a beautiful machine. Looking forward to playing it and then mostly wiping it with a diaper!!

#1066 5 months ago

Thought I had when I saw black washers is I'm gonna swap the PETG clear washers in its place.

#1067 5 months ago
Quoted from sanantoniopinhea:

I have a June 2021 build on an LE. The upper playfield has a tiny washer on it. I am going to add one of the clear washers. Does anyone know if that lone post has a screw on the bottom holding it on? I'm worried that if I loosen the post and a bolt falls off the bottom I'm going to have to remove the upper playfield.

Yours probably has a nylon nut underneath holding the post in. You can feel underneath to confirm. This is how mine is.

40
#1068 5 months ago

Yesterday, I officially cancelled my GNR order.

I told my distributor, if JJP finds a new playfield supplier, I'll simply reorder.

Until then, I'm out.

-2
#1069 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Just found out what JJP did…:
[quoted image]

What was your job before you took this one?Jesus talk about on a mission from Gary!

#1070 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yesterday, I officially cancelled my GNR order.
I told my distributor, if JJP finds a new playfield supplier, I'll simply reorder.
Until then, I'm out.

Many of us have had to put down a non-refundable deposit. Was that the same with you? Just wondering if your distributor forgave it or worked with you on it, if so.

#1071 5 months ago
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#1072 5 months ago
Quoted from sanantoniopinhea:

I have a June 2021 build on an LE. The upper playfield has a tiny washer on it. I am going to add one of the clear washers. Does anyone know if that lone post has a screw on the bottom holding it on? I'm worried that if I loosen the post and a bolt falls off the bottom I'm going to have to remove the upper playfield.

There is no bolt underneath on that post. You will be fine.

#1073 5 months ago
Quoted from mostater:

Many of us have had to put down a non-refundable deposit. Was that the same with you? Just wondering if your distributor forgave it or worked with you on it, if so.

Non-refundables were with JJP direct. Distributors are hopefully taking care of their customers properly.

If you did order directy, a chargeback will secure the refund. Send a picture of a damaged playfield to your card company and explain you refuse to pay for products faulty out of the box.

If JJP blacklists you for chargeback, think about it: do you really want to buy from a company that would force you to buy their faulty product against your will?

#1074 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yesterday, I officially cancelled my GNR order.
I told my distributor, if JJP finds a new playfield supplier, I'll simply reorder.
Until then, I'm out.

And Vid has spoken.

A guy that can fix some messed up shit with the best of them

Should I be scared to death now?

How old are you Vid? Life is short.

#1075 5 months ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Washers will just move the pooling to around the washer, IMO.

This is exactly my concern. It's just pushing the problem further away from the post

#1076 5 months ago
Quoted from allsportdvd:

This is exactly my concern. It's just pushing the problem further away from the post

How will they know? Nobody’s gonna know…

2CBE5CEE-D8E8-4235-B822-6FFA2BA0CD0B.gif
#1077 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yesterday, I officially cancelled my GNR order.
I told my distributor, if JJP finds a new playfield supplier, I'll simply reorder.
Until then, I'm out.

Stick it to the man!

If it bothers you and you dont want the headache and stress, cancel your order.

If it doesnt bother you and you really want the game, buy it and take it as it comes.

Buyer beware. It's pretty simple.

But I do feel for those who are bothered by it, have aleady received their game, and are getting no restitution from JJP. Thats really the only issue here.

#1078 5 months ago

...

-2
#1079 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yesterday, I officially cancelled my GNR order.
I told my distributor, if JJP finds a new playfield supplier, I'll simply reorder.
Until then, I'm out.

Vid you did the right thing. Below comment is from the Mandalorian thread and think this guys sums up the GNR experience, not just all the PF issues. So you’re not missing out on anything.

Quoted from dinot:

I agree. I went in to GnR LE with no dogs in the JJP vs Stern battles. But I was bored. My biggest gripe was that it was slow. IMO, every JJP game is slow. I like fast games and no JJP games are fast that I've played. And I've played every title. At first, (WoZ) I was thinking that it was that specific machine not being inclined enough, but then every JJP I played was slow. This is quite a statement for me as I was a huge WMS/Bally bigot. I thumbed my nose at Sega/Data East.

Me personally: even though they are slow games, like (somewhat) the way DI and WW shoot (even though the ball gets lost on both layouts all the time), but that’s the expertise of the long time designer Pat L. versus the very inexperienced Eric M (POTC the ball meanders all over the place and GNR is almost not pinball, but rather a light show with music. Both shoot so slowly like the guy above stated).

13
#1080 5 months ago

Wonka and Dialed in are not slow.

#1081 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

You’re kidding yourself if you think they’ve fixed anything as I stated above.

But for $10k plus, isn’t it crazy anyone has to put in the time to “fix” a brand new machine??? Like a car dealer telling us we will enjoy our Ferrari, if we just put in the time and extra money to protect Ferrari’s subcontractor’s lousy paint job from chipping, cracking, paint pooling, etc. lol.
What is pinball coming to that we want a title so badly we are willing to put up with this kind of bizarre nonsense from JJP, that we as a consumer have to fix all their manufacturing problems on a brand new machine???

I work for a car company and the engines are burning oil, some before first oil change. 1 quart per 1000 miles is within specs. Oil interval is 7500 miles with a 4.9 quart capacity. Wtf? So new policy is customer is responsible for checking and topping off everyday and every gas fill up.

New company culture=not our problem if you drive it/play it.

Can’t fight it as CEO has turned off ability to hear complaints. Lawsuits are stacking up billions are being spent.

I don’t get it.

-14
#1082 5 months ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Wonka and Dialed in are not slow.

Just 2 examples:
1. WW, the ball completely slows down by disappearing behind the TV screen and for a while you have no idea where or what the ball is doing, till a big arrow on the screen begins flashing to tell you the ball will be exiting out of slowville area.
2. Dialed In the ball shooting from left side goes so slow at times, it actually stops on the back of the habit trail before reaching the mechanic woman diverter. Ball can also go through Bob left orbit and completely disappear, when by sound only you hear ball goes into trap door and then through tunnel to phone. All the while you sit there and wait and see no ball action at all.

The point of pinball is to actually see the ball. In both these examples of WW and DI, the ball goes missing much of the game. Playing a ball in tunnels is not fun, hence why Stern stopped or will not make subways. JJP has not yet learned that lesson. Slow games are painful and not too fun. GNR is a sssllllllooooooowwwww painful game when the light show wears off. Not much else to it, as it goes from MB to MB, because there is literally nothing else for Keith J. to program the ball to interact with. No mechs. This is why many people are calling GNR a “boring game.” I do admit GNR cover of Sir Paul’s song is impressive with all the lights going during the cover song GNR does. But that wears off by about the tenth time seeing it. Lol

#1083 5 months ago

hmmmm...
can't sure its the place to talk about this, but i didnt agree about DI, which, from my player point of view, is surelly one of the best pinball ever done
the only week point of this pin is the code about the wizard only, being too "meh" (but than not evbd will see it one day)

#1084 5 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Putting washers under the posts like that raises the height of the rubber ring and changes the action. Now the ball is hitting the underside of the rubber and being driven downward into the playfield instead of a clean lateral rebound.
They're not really fixing anything; they're just creating new problems.

Relaaaaaax.

Jjp's quality playfields should be able to handle the extra....little......

oh fuck.

-1
#1085 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Just 2 examples:
1. WW, the ball completely slows down by disappearing behind the TV screen and for a while you have no idea where or what the ball is doing, till a big arrow on the screen begins flashing to tell you the ball will be exiting out of slowville area.
2. Dialed In the ball shooting from left side goes so slow at times, it actually stops on the back of the habit trail before reaching the mechanic woman diverter. Ball can also go through Bob left orbit and completely disappear, when by sound only you hear ball goes into trap door and then through tunnel to phone. All the while you sit there and wait and see no ball action at all.
The point of pinball is to actually see the ball. In both these examples of WW and DI, the ball goes missing much of the game. Playing a ball in tunnels is not

Just 2 examples:
1. WW, the ball completely slows down by disappearing behind the TV screen and for a while you have no idea where or what the ball is doing, till a big arrow on the screen begins flashing to tell you the ball will be exiting out of slowville area.
2. Dialed In the ball shooting from left side goes so slow at times, it actually stops on the back of the habit trail before reaching the mechanic woman diverter. Ball can also go through Bob left orbit and completely disappear, when by sound only you hear ball goes into trap door and then through tunnel to phone. All the while you sit there and wait and see no ball action at all.
The point of pinball is to actually see the ball. In both these examples of WW and DI, the ball goes missing much of the game. Playing a ball in tunnels is not fun, hence why Stern stopped or will not make subways. JJP has not yet learned that lesson. Slow games are painful and not too fun. GNR is a sssllllllooooooowwwww painful game when the light show wears off. Not much else to it, as it goes from MB to MB, because there is literally nothing else for Keith J. to program the ball to interact with. No mechs. This is why many people are calling GNR a “boring game.” I do admit GNR cover of Sir Paul’s song is impressive with all the lights going during the cover song GNR does. But that wears off by about the tenth time seeing it. Lol

Jim, your constant ragging on jjp is wearing thin man, how about you put a lid on it ...... My first ignore function happily applied to you dude.....

#1086 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Just 2 examples:
1. WW, the ball completely slows down by disappearing behind the TV screen and for a while you have no idea where or what the ball is doing, till a big arrow on the screen begins flashing to tell you the ball will be exiting out of slowville area.
2. Dialed In the ball shooting from left side goes so slow at times, it actually stops on the back of the habit trail before reaching the mechanic woman diverter. Ball can also go through Bob left orbit and completely disappear, when by sound only you hear ball goes into trap door and then through tunnel to phone. All the while you sit there and wait and see no ball action at all.
The point of pinball is to actually see the ball. In both these examples of WW and DI, the ball goes missing much of the game. Playing a ball in tunnels is not fun, hence why Stern stopped or will not make subways. JJP has not yet learned that lesson. Slow games are painful and not too fun. GNR is a sssllllllooooooowwwww painful game when the light show wears off. Not much else to it, as it goes from MB to MB, because there is literally nothing else for Keith J. to program the ball to interact with. No mechs. This is why many people are calling GNR a “boring game.” I do admit GNR cover of Sir Paul’s song is impressive with all the lights going during the cover song GNR does. But that wears off by about the tenth time seeing it. Lol

For God's sake, give it a rest. Those games aren't slow and your point you're trying to make sucks. "The point of pinball is to actually see the ball?" Who said this? Like ever?

#1087 5 months ago
Quoted from mostater:

Many of us have had to put down a non-refundable deposit. Was that the same with you? Just wondering if your distributor forgave it or worked with you on it, if so.

Distributor refunded my card.

Not that it mattered what payment method I used, he knows more than anyone how extensive the problem is

#1088 5 months ago
Quoted from RA77:

Jim, your constant ragging on jjp is wearing thin man, how about you put a lid on it or piss off somewhere else with the bullshit. My first ignore function happily applied to you dude.....

Can’t you stand the heat my friend of a good discussion or people’s opinion? Relax. That’s what this forum is all about, discussing our different viewpoints, grow up. Truth hurts for some…

#1089 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Vid you did the right thing. Below comment is from the Mandalorian thread and think this guys sums up the GNR experience, not just all the PF issues. So you’re not missing out on anything.

Me personally: even though they are slow games, like (somewhat) the way DI and WW shoot (even though the ball gets lost on both layouts all the time), but that’s the expertise of the long time designer Pat L. versus the very inexperienced Eric M (POTC the ball meanders all over the place and GNR is almost not pinball, but rather a light show with music. Both shoot so slowly like the guy above stated).

As a average player I 100% agree with this. This os why JJP is so awesome for me. I’m no highscore guy, Sterns seem so cheaply built, says my wife who’s worse then me. But all that glitter and long ball time only makes the JJP line up heads and shoulders above for us average Joes. I am having a little fun on a new JP but rarely go over 100 mil.

#1090 5 months ago
Quoted from jorant:

For God's sake, give it a rest. Those games aren't slow and your point you're trying to make sucks. "The point of pinball is to actually see the ball?" Who said this? Like ever?

And a big lol at that's why Stern eliminated subways. It wasn't a cost cutting measure but an epiphany that Stern realized nobody wanted to lose sight of the ball!

#1091 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

GNR is a sssllllllooooooowwwww painful game

Hahahahahaha - dumbest statement ever. GNR is a multiball game. There are *4* multiballs before a song, then the song is a multiball that will punish you for playing slow. Only a poor player would call GnR slow.

It’s pretty obvious you don’t like the game (or WW or DI) - that’s fine. But what’s your purpose in continually posting negative comments about everything?

#1092 5 months ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

The difference with the auto industry and the brands with poor quality is - you drive you car back to the dealer and they fix it for free under a warranty

Or with some of the luxury brands they actually pick it up and/or offer you a loaner while they work on your vehicle.

16
#1093 5 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And Vid has spoken.
A guy that can fix some messed up shit with the best of them
How old are you Vid? Life is short.

Exactly.

JJP is going to be making GNR for the next decade.

I can wait a year.

As soon as they secure a different playfield supplier, I'll get one without the headache

#1094 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Exactly.
JJP is going to be making GNR for the next decade.
I can wait a year.
As soon as they secure a different playfield supplier, I'll get one without the headache

Thanks for validating that the playfield issues are because of Mirco. JJP should have fired them 3 games ago!

#1095 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

I work for a car company and the engines are burning oil, some before first oil change. 1 quart per 1000 miles is within specs. Oil interval is 7500 miles with a 4.9 quart capacity. Wtf? So new policy is customer is responsible for checking and topping off everyday and every gas fill up.
New company culture=not our problem if you drive it/play it.
Can’t fight it as CEO has turned off ability to hear complaints. Lawsuits are stacking up billions are being spent.
I don’t get it.

I don't know what company you work for but the last several new cars we've bought no longer have dipsticks or anyway other than the computer to tell you what the oil level is. Two of them (both BMW V8s) burn oil before changes and they tell you when you need oil. I was pretty surprised to hear this was within spec and I'm really not a fan of not having a physical way to check something as vital as engine oil but it appears to be the way all the manufacturers are moving.

#1096 5 months ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

God. Those washers look so freaking bad……….

They are not only ugly but are also a reminder that any playfield with them could have an issue.

Quoted from vid1900:

Exactly.
JJP is going to be making GNR for the next decade.
I can wait a year.
As soon as they secure a different playfield supplier, I'll get one without the headache

Sounds like a good plan. That's ideally what I would want as well, a GNR LE made with a corrected playfield that doesn't have giant washers installed all over the place. If playfield issues are resolved then there should be no need for the abundance of washers.

Resale value with GNR LE's won't be like Pirates due to the large number of them being made. If JJP eventually releases updated playfields with better art adhesion, clear, etc then I would expect those games to maintain their value better and be the more desirable model. It's also possible JJP never updates their playfields and that this is just the new normal.

#1097 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Just 2 examples:
1. WW, the ball completely slows down by disappearing behind the TV screen and for a while you have no idea where or what the ball is doing, till a big arrow on the screen begins flashing to tell you the ball will be exiting out of slowville area.
2. Dialed In the ball shooting from left side goes so slow at times, it actually stops on the back of the habit trail before reaching the mechanic woman diverter. Ball can also go through Bob left orbit and completely disappear, when by sound only you hear ball goes into trap door and then through tunnel to phone. All the while you sit there and wait and see no ball action at all.
The point of pinball is to actually see the ball. In both these examples of WW and DI, the ball goes missing much of the game. Playing a ball in tunnels is not fun, hence why Stern stopped or will not make subways. JJP has not yet learned that lesson. Slow games are painful and not too fun. GNR is a sssllllllooooooowwwww painful game when the light show wears off. Not much else to it, as it goes from MB to MB, because there is literally nothing else for Keith J. to program the ball to interact with. No mechs. This is why many people are calling GNR a “boring game.” I do admit GNR cover of Sir Paul’s song is impressive with all the lights going during the cover song GNR does. But that wears off by about the tenth time seeing it. Lol

Do you own any JJP Pins?

#1098 5 months ago
Quoted from GPS:

Looking forward to playing it and then mostly wiping it with a diaper!!

I was just at a friends house yesterday cleaning the glass and playing several machines. I need to diaper wipe my one machine today as a matter of fact!

Digression over.

#1099 5 months ago
Quoted from mostater:

Many of us have had to put down a non-refundable deposit.

Have you asked for a refund? If you point out the extensive changes JJP has made to the warranty since last winter, coupled with the ongoing playfield issues which were covered by the "Bumper to Post" warranty at the time you preordered (assuming you put down your deposit under the old warranty) but now are not, you've got a pretty good argument that they've materially changed the deal and you're entitled to a refund if you want out. Under the circumstances, I would think a bit of foot-stamping should do the trick.

Just for reference, here's the "Bumper to Post" warranty pulled from the November 2020 GnR manual on JJP's website:
Old Warranty

And here's the more limited, Stern-style warranty from the current GnR manual, which based on the date appears to have gone into effect in March 2021:
New Warranty

#1100 5 months ago
Quoted from jorant:

Those games aren't slow and your point you're trying to make sucks.

I would agree DI and Wonka play slow for modern games. JJP flippers have always felt soft to me. Pop bumpers and slings flick instead of kick the ball. Fresh out of the box they play like a well-worn 90s game.

Quoted from jorant:

"The point of pinball is to actually see the ball?" Who said this? Like ever?

Me, several times. Can't stand subways, or covered areas of a playfield where the ball is just gone and comes out wherever. Anytime I can't see the ball doing something, the game is effectively dead. So yeah, the point is to see the ball, hit it, watch it whip around a habitrail, interact with a mech, anything visible.

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