(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

5 months ago


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#51 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Pooling Purple

Chipping Copper

Gash Gold

Soilent Green

Peeling Pink

Schwarz Black

Botched Blau

Those color names

#52 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I hate when people say that Einstein said it, because of course he didn't.

maybe it sounded more like.

Die Definition von Wahnsinn bedeutet, dasselbe zu tun und ein anderes Ergebnis zu erwarten.

#53 5 months ago

"The problem" can be fixed by not buying NIB. Wait six months or a year, then find a nice HUO that you can examine for "the problem" while your $$$ is still in your pocket.

...and I say this as someone whose last 4 machines were bought NIB. They _all_ had issues, as did the non-NIB machines I'd purchased before - it's part of the hobby, isn't it?

#54 5 months ago
Quoted from woody76:

yep, lots of mental illness in this hobby. I have seen this hobby ruin families just like drugs. insane.

Now THERE'S some stories I'd love to hear. What happened?

#55 5 months ago
Quoted from JWJr:

"The problem" can be fixed by not buying NIB. Wait six months or a year, then find a nice HUO that you can examine for "the problem" while your $$$ is still in your pocket.

This seems like the most reasonable suggestion... But I guess it's tough to fight the impulse buy psychology, and new titles are probably harder to come by used?

But for folks who find these issues to be major problems, there's probably little recourse.

#56 5 months ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The real question is why do people continue to buy games if they know the quality is subpar. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

Because the fear of missing out is too much for some folks to handle.

#57 5 months ago

Didn’t Micro come out awhile ago and claim something has been done to make his playfields better?

#58 5 months ago
Quoted from PinRob:

Didn’t Micro come out awhile ago and claim something has been done to make his playfields better?

I don;t know if that's true, but wouldn't be believable anyway. From what I remember he came out and said he was finally going to add some quality control....starting now.....seriously.

-6
#59 5 months ago

Has it ever occurred to anyone that to some people (probably the ones who intend to play the hell out of their games and aren’t obsessed with what they’re going to resell for, if they ever sell at all) that it’s just not that big of a deal?

I mean unless they’re losing giant swaths of art it’s not even that noticeable unless you’re looking for it, which we as enthusiasts do. But for casuals and even some owners, it just has to work, right?

While I do agree it sucks (and I blame digital printing FWIW) that it’s happening this way playfields aren’t really made to last forever even in the best of circumstances... even an unused PF will have inserts rise or sink, and used ones get dimples and chips and other assorted damages.

#60 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I can't 100% confirm this but I think there's been zero reports of pooling / chipping at any post in Stern pins where the artwork has been removed. Stern had the same issue with early Jurassic Park's, they then removed artwork around all posts for later runs and the issue was solved. Stern has since removed artwork around posts on all of their games going forward.
Many here have speculated that the cause of pooling / chipping issue is the new digital playfield artwork print process and that the pressure from posts can result in it occurring. Stern got around this by removing artwork surrounding all posts, no ugly washer band aids needed.

Sterns still have playfield issues even with the artwork removed around posts. Artwork lifting and pooling around ball guides and ramps where they are on the playfield as well as warped playfields. I do not think they have come even close to solving this. I’ve been burned on a few recent Sterns(even ones with artwork removed around posts.) It seems to me that only Spooky, American, CGC, and Haggis have solved it. JJP and Stern have not.

#61 5 months ago
Quoted from Vespula:

I am going to be in the new generation of first time nib jjp pin owners (whenever it finally ships) and accept that I'm definitely part of the problem in some people's minds as I wish mine would hurry up and ship so I can enjoy playing it in between installing mods, learning how to fix the issues (under warranty) and to care for it. I'm jjps perfect customer...a fixit kind of guy. I think I should be rewarded and moved to the front of the line!! (Are you reading this JJP!?!? Hint:Order: 466-SO114303 ) It will be my first pin!!! I accept the task! Eyes wide open! Gnfr!

Excellent. Your cc spray booth and touchup assortment is on standby? Exciting!!

#62 5 months ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

I mean unless they’re losing giant swaths of art it’s not even that noticeable unless you’re looking for it, which we as enthusiasts do. But for casuals and even some owners, it just has to work, right?
While I do agree it sucks (and I blame digital printing FWIW) that it’s happening this way playfields aren’t really made to last forever

True enough. Unless...

You ARE losing giant swaths of art. Problem is steel ball rolling over broken cc and bare wood. Not worrying about resale as it falls apart a week after playing. C’mon man. Your excitement for this title is blinding your better judgement it seems.

#63 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:

Excellent. Your cc spray booth and touchup assortment is on standby? Exciting!!

Your black armor and fire don't scare me, underlord!

#64 5 months ago
Quoted from Vespula:

Your black armor and fire don't scare me, underlord!

Oh stop it you...I’m blushing.

#65 5 months ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The problem can't just be **fixed** (unless somebody wants to buy a new $200,000 printer).

or go back to screening.

#66 5 months ago
Quoted from BeeGee6533:

Sterns still have playfield issues even with the artwork removed around posts. Artwork lifting and pooling around ball guides and ramps where they are on the playfield as well as warped playfields. I do not think they have come even close to solving this. I’ve been burned on a few recent Sterns(even ones with artwork removed around posts.) It seems to me that only Spooky, American, CGC, and Haggis have solved it. JJP and Stern have not.

These are the may Deadpool premiums. They’re working on it at least.

2D2DCFAE-5EB1-4C42-9EF6-5085B62AC3C6 (resized).jpeg
#67 5 months ago
Quoted from PinRob:

Didn’t Micro come out awhile ago and claim something has been done to make his playfields better?

After the initial run of GnR SE which did have problems,the production was halted again and problem was suppose to be addressed by Mirco's people.They made an announcement of better QC and each playfield would be marked as solid.For quite a while there was no mention of any playfield issues but here we are again.Are these new problem playfields or are we just rehashing the old problem ones that have just now been sold as new?

#68 5 months ago

Are they having trouble selling? No? That’s why.

“Good enough” sells. Just not to me

#69 5 months ago
Quoted from romulusx:

After the initial run of GnR SE which did have problems,the production was halted again and problem was suppose to be addressed by Mirco's people.They made an announcement of better QC and each playfield would be marked as solid.For quite a while there was no mention of any playfield issues but here we are again.Are these new problem playfields or are we just rehashing the old problem ones that have just now been sold as new?

And I can’t even find where or when Micro did the announcement anymore

#70 5 months ago
Quoted from underlord:True enough. Unless...
You ARE losing giant swaths of art. Problem is steel ball rolling over broken cc and bare wood. Not worrying about resale as it falls apart a week after playing. C’mon man. Your excitement for this title is blinding your better judgement it seems.

I feel like people missed that I was simply answering the “Why is JJP still making games with faulty PFs?” question, lol.

#71 5 months ago

It would be nice if Mirco had a feedback/comment/Q&A thread on here. I would like to purchase 5-10 replacement playfields but won't until I know they are of the quality I would expect.

#72 5 months ago
Quoted from PinRob:

And I can’t even find where or when Micro did the announcement anymore

Virtual Pinball Expo 2020

Day 3 - Part 1

Mirco clearcoat "Durability to a different level (including destruction testing)" Clip time frame= 10:02 - 22:08

#73 5 months ago

Short answer is because they continue to purchase faulty playfields, unfortunately.

#74 5 months ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

I feel like people missed that I was simply answering the “Why is JJP still making games with faulty PFs?” question, lol.

Apologies amigo. Too many blind defenders. I need a score card to keep up.

What’s the over/under again?

#75 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinzzz:

Virtual Pinball Expo 2020
Day 3 - Part 1
Mirco clearcoat "Durability to a different level (including destruction testing)" Clip time frame= 10:02 - 22:08

That video was published November 20, 2020. Micro states that the playfield clear coat durability process they are now employing has been under way for over a year already. So as I interpret it he seems to say that playfields after November 20, 2019 are A-OK.

Side note he did save the baby from possibly getting knocked by a falling playfield. Not really sure about having the baby in the video though.

#76 5 months ago
Quoted from PinRob:

Side note he did save the baby from possibly getting knocked by a falling playfield. Not really sure about having the baby in the video though.

The baby was supposed to prove that he was actually human, by him not immediately eating the child for it's adrenochrome.

As many have previously pointed out online, his stomach bulge makes it appear that he had just been fed, prior to filming the video.

Others have pointed to his family crest, displayed outside their summer palace in Bern, depicts the true reptilian origins.

f08c22a8fd9065d8ad39e1e4ec375aee (resized).jpg
#77 5 months ago

Not excusing anyone here, but I will play devil's advocate and say that I think this is being blown out of proportion at this point. It sure seems like the bulk of the issues with GnR were in the early runs from last summer and the reports are few and far between these days for recent builds. Unless someone can prove this is still widespread including cracking, I would not let this slow me down at all if I was in the market for GnR. Pooling has no effect on gameplay and seems to have no effect on resale on this title. If you want the game, buy it, make sure all the posts have a washer, forget about all this and have fun playing.

#78 5 months ago
Quoted from JWJr:

"The problem" can be fixed by not buying NIB. Wait six months or a year, then find a nice HUO that you can examine for "the problem" while your $$$ is still in your pocket.
...and I say this as someone whose last 4 machines were bought NIB. They all_ had issues, as did the non-NIB machines I'd purchased before - it's part of the hobby, isn't it?

If you buy an HUO example, someone bought it NIB

#79 5 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

Not excusing anyone here, but I will play devil's advocate and say that I think this is being blown out of proportion at this point. It sure seems like the bulk of the issues with GnR were in the early runs from last summer and the reports are few and far between these days for recent builds. Unless someone can prove this is still widespread including cracking, I would not let this slow me down at all if I was in the market for GnR. Pooling has no effect on gameplay and seems to have no effect on resale on this title. If you want the game, buy it, make sure all the posts have a washer, forget about all this and have fun playing.

I never want to be “that guy”

Is a chipping playfield under warranty a valid claim to want fixed?

#80 5 months ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

I never want to be “that guy”
Is a chipping playfield under warranty a valid claim to want fixed?

It appears that unless your distributor is willing to go into their own pocket, you are on your own.

#81 5 months ago

Because Jack only wants your money - cares not about delivering a quality, desirable product.
Seriously; if he cared about anything but money - he'd own up to the problem.
Having screwed the customer on 3 different games over... what 6 years? Speaks volumes.
Just send him money via go fund him; and he'll be just as happy

Making Playfields isn't hard... it's pretty damn clear that Mirco is a hack and he should be run from this hobby with Pitchforks.

#82 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Good point. I'm waiting at least 6 months before buying any new JJP game as all now appear to have early playfield issues. I was thinking of doing the same thing with Stern but they have solved the issue by removing artwork around all posts.
However, it's now been 6+ months since GNR was announced and there's at least 1 report of pooling / chipping at a rear game post in an April 2021 build (when JJP is now shipping games with washers). It truly looks awful and I would be beyond pissed if it happened on my game considering these insane prices.

Now you’re getting the picture. JJP games, especially GNR have insane prices for not much more than lots of LEDs, with music. No mechs and I know you like mechs, really who doesn’t? So why punish yourself and spend all this money on the playfield lottery? Buy it, if you got it for $1k less and flip it straight away, while still in the box. Let the next guy take the chance since JJP no longer takes care of us the customer. Boycot this behavior or it will be the new norm at JJP. People keep trying to pass the buck from JJP to Mirco, but Mirco only does what JJP instructs them to do, just like any subcontractor. This is squarely JJPs issue, not Mircro’s. Besides, there is not much to this game after you’ve played it 100 times. It gets quite old quickly anyway, with the same songs over and over again, just like any music pin does for that matter. First few times through even with no mechs, the game is fun because of all the lights and sound, but save yourself some money, as there will soon be a glut of GNRs on the market, when TS hits. Be a wise consumer and jump ship now! Prices on GNR are too high for this kind of poor customer product and service from JJP.

#83 5 months ago
Quoted from John_I:

Not excusing anyone here, but I will play devil's advocate and say that I think this is being blown out of proportion at this point. It sure seems like the bulk of the issues with GnR were in the early runs from last summer and the reports are few and far between these days for recent builds. Unless someone can prove this is still widespread including cracking, I would not let this slow me down at all if I was in the market for GnR. Pooling has no effect on gameplay and seems to have no effect on resale on this title. If you want the game, buy it, make sure all the posts have a washer, forget about all this and have fun playing.

Washers on a $12+k work of art is like putting steel coverings over the Mona Lisa to protect it and is not easy to forget at all when it is staring you in the face constantly while playing. Looks like crap no matter how you try to position them.

#84 5 months ago
Quoted from Zitt:

Because Jack only wants your money - cares not about delivering a quality, desirable product.
Seriously; if he cared about anything but money - he'd own up to the problem.
Having screwed the customer on 3 different games over... what 6 years? Speaks volumes.

Right on the money, Jack and JJP don’t care, because the market is buying anyway. This won’t end till we say no to any company releasing crappy play fields or products. 3 games and counting. We can all be assured that Toy Story will have the same issues, because JJP will not change vendors. Because JJP knows any vendor they change to will have same issues because PF formula JJP orders will be the same for their look. Mirco is not the real problem, it is JJP.

#85 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Now you’re getting the picture. JJP games, especially GNR have insane prices for not much more than lots of LEDs, with music. No mechs and I know you like mechs, really who doesn’t? So why punish yourself and spend all this money on the playfield lottery? Buy it, if you got it for $1k less and flip it straight away, while still in the box. Let the next guy take the chance since JJP no longer takes care of us the customer. Boycot this behavior or it will be the new norm at JJP. People keep trying to pass the buck from JJP to Mirco, but Mirco only does what JJP instructs them to do, just like any subcontractor. This is squarely JJPs issue, not Mircro’s. Besides, there is not much to this game after you’ve played it 100 times. It gets quite old quickly anyway, with the same songs over and over again, just like any music pin does for that matter. First few times through even with no mechs, the game is fun because of all the lights and sound, but save yourself some money, as there will soon be a glut of GNRs on the market, when TS hits. Be a wise consumer and jump ship now! Prices on GNR are too high for this kind of poor customer product and service from JJP.

I agree with your comments about the playfields, it's on JJP for not holding Mirco accountable and then continuing to use them.

With that being said why is GNR now ranked #2 on Pinside if the game has nothing in it? Why did GNR win the TWIPY 2020 GOTY along with a ton of other awards if it has nothing in it? This thread isn't about the game being good or bad but rather playfield quality. There's dozens of people who poured thousands of hours into making this game and it's a shame to see such a great pin have its reputation hurt by playfield issues of all things.

By the way you really don't count an entire upper playfield with multiple shots as a mech? You don't count a 6 ball physical lock as a mech? You don't count the spinning record disk as a mech? You don't count any of these items as feature / toys? Yet Led Zeppelin is loaded because Stern made it? lol.

- Bass guitar ramp return w/ passive diverters
- Guitar lock w/ passive diverters
- Drumstick ramp return
- Crashing cymbal pop bumpers
- AXL sculpt
- Slash hat light assembly
- Record spinner
- Catwalk ramp returns
- Speaker stack diverter cover
- Hotrails!
- Fully articulated spotlights
- LED-lit Guitar Pick Spinners
- Hex Stage Lights
- Concert Jumbotron LCD

Added 76 days ago:

Updating

#86 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinzzz:

Virtual Pinball Expo 2020
Day 3 - Part 1
Mirco clearcoat "Durability to a different level (including destruction testing)" Clip time frame= 10:02 - 22:08

Wow, for them to say that after all of the early GNR playfield issues...

Mirco live playfield testing.

giphy.gif

Added 76 days ago:

Updating

#87 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

The amount of hate you have towards JJP and love for Stern (who you never criticize) never ceases to amaze me. Why is GNR now ranked #2 on Pinside if the game has nothing in it? LOL. Why did GNR win the TWIPY 2020 GOTY along with a ton of other awards if it has nothing in it? This thread isn't about the game being good or bad but rather playfield quality.
You don't count an entire upper playfield with multiple shots as a mech? You don't count a 6 ball physical lock as a mech? You don't count the spinning record disk as a mech? You don't count any of these items as feature / toys? Yet I'm sure you think Led Zeppelin is loaded because Stern made it. lol.
- Bass guitar ramp return w/ passive diverters
- Guitar lock w/ passive diverters
- Drumstick ramp return
- Crashing cymbal pop bumpers
- AXL sculpt
- Slash hat light assembly
- Record spinner
- Catwalk ramp returns
- Speaker stack diverter cover
- Hotrails!
- Fully articulated spotlights
- LED-lit Guitar Pick Spinners
- Hex Stage Lights
- Concert Jumbotron

Loooool, like all companies equally including JJP. Purchase their games and have fun, so don’t know why you say that??? Only don’t like being overcharged for subpar products and it doesn’t matter who the company is, so I’m in your camp. Think LZ is way overpriced and also under spec’d with almost no interesting mechs, other than one spinner in the middle if you pony up thousands more for at most a $35 part. Get half the songs of GNR. So my displeasure with subpar offerings goes both ways.

But come on, that list you have given is a stretch. No mechs listed there at all. At least LZ does have one ball interactive mech. Lol Just look at your list again...it is no WOZ, POTC or Dialed In in the mech department that’s for sure. Not even close. List out those items costs and what exactly are we paying for??? Your list can’t actually cost JJP more than a few hundred dollars. Yes, LZ is just as lacking, even more so without all the inexpensive LEDs GNR offers. That list is all fluff and no substance for us players that really like ball interactive mechs. Thought that was what pinball was all about, not just lights, plastic and some songs?

#88 5 months ago
Quoted from jimwe5t:

Loooool, like all companies equally including JJP. Purchase their games and have fun, so don’t know why you say that??? Only don’t like being overcharged for subpar products and it doesn’t matter who the company is, so I’m in your camp. Think LZ is way overpriced and also under spec’d with almost no interesting mechs, other than one spinner in the middle if you pony up thousands more for at most a $35 part. Get half the songs of GNR. So my displeasure with subpar offerings goes both ways.
But come on, that list you have given is a stretch. No mechs listed there at all. At least LZ does have one ball interactive mech. Lol Just look at your list again...it is no WOZ, POTC or Dialed In in the mech department that’s for sure. Not even close. List out those items costs and what exactly are we paying for??? Your list can’t actually cost JJP more than a few hundred dollars. Yes, LZ is just as lacking, even more so without all the inexpensive LEDs GNR offers. That list is all fluff and no substance for us players that really like ball interactive mechs. Thought that was what pinball was all about, not just lights, plastic and some songs?

I really don't want to get into a debate about mechs and features. It would just be nice if JJP could consistently put a quality playfield in their products like they did with Hobbit. They actually removed the artwork around all posts on that pin, maybe that's why it holds up so well. WOZ the same thing. JJP should at least remove artwork around sling posts if they are going to continue using Mirco.

From Hobbit.

20210508_100038 (resized).jpg

Added 76 days ago:

Updating

#89 5 months ago

Collectors only gotta love your list PFreak. Real pinball players want interactive magical mechs, when spending these high prices of now $13,500.00 for a CE. Can’t have more for parts and labor, than $3500 to $4,000 tops for GNR CE. LZ can’t have more than $3,000 to $3500 for a $9200 LE. Kman touts these figures all the time.

#90 5 months ago
Quoted from amxfc3s:

It would be nice if Mirco had a feedback/comment/Q&A thread on here. I would like to purchase 5-10 replacement playfields but won't until I know they are of the quality I would expect.

I suggest searching out the mirco playfields warnings for potential buyers thread for some answers on why these things don't exist.

#91 5 months ago

PanzerFreak you just need to completely ignore jimwe5t... Any other effort to engage this intellectually superior individual will just be a complete waste of your time. There are few members on here as predictable as jimwe5t when it comes to what they're going to say before they say it and it just creates more noise. Anyone who thinks Stern games are more feature packed than JJP are crazy stupid. That's not to say that Stern games aren't fun and don't have features but you're looking at two completely different kinds of pinball companies. Oh and they BOTH have playfield issues so...

Jeff

#92 5 months ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

They actually removed the artwork around all posts on that pin, maybe that's why it holds up so well. WOZ the same thing. JJP should at least remove artwork around sling posts if they are going to continue using Mirco.
From Hobbit.
[quoted image]

Could never figure that out myself?? I have (2) prototype POTC playfields and at That time they had all the artwork correctly removed from around all posts and not a Single issue with these. Yet somewhere along the line at production they opted to put the artwork around the posts back in???

IMG_6844 (resized).jpg
#93 5 months ago
Quoted from proco:

Let's see what people say how the new Fathom remake plays. Maybe Haggis will be able to license their new pinball innovation to other manufacturers ... if others reaaaaaaaly care about indestructable playfields.

No such thing as indestructible. And if others want to play on plastic, that’s fine. But I need wood and steel for my $$$ games.

#94 5 months ago
Quoted from pincoin:

If you buy an HUO example, someone bought it NIB

That seems obvious.

What's also obvious is that "NIB" = "pig in a poke" - unboxing, I've seen perfect machines, machines with small defects (wrong apron cards, for one), and one machine where a power board capacitor came rolling out of the box when I opened it.

Buying HUO allows for inspection before purchase that's not possible with NIB.

#95 5 months ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

Could never figure that out myself?? I have (2) prototype POTC playfields and at That time they had all the artwork correctly removed from around all posts and not a Single issue with these. Yet somewhere along the line at production they opted to put the artwork around the posts back in???
[quoted image]

Wow no way! So much customer frustration could have been avoided had JJP just stuck with that original choice.

One would think JJP would surely have made the no artwork switch with Wonka after Pirates but nope! Surely surely JJP would have made the no artwork switch after Pirates and Wonka but nope...Unbelievable.

#96 5 months ago

I've started some data collection to see how expansive this JJP problem really is. Please contribute.

Also, could someone figure out a way to keep these up top so they don't slip into the nether regions of Pinside.

SE
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-playfield-chipping-data-collection-se#post-6270790

LE
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-playfield-chipping-data-collection-le#post-6272458

CE
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jjp-playfield-chipping-data-collection-ce-1#post-6270787

#97 5 months ago

^^^ Seriously, three separate threads on this? Just ask people to post whether their game is SE, LE or CE.

#98 5 months ago
Quoted from swampfire:

^^^ Seriously, three separate threads on this? Just ask people to post whether their game is SE, LE or CE.

Agreed. Seems like a no value data collection. If they don't have the game who cares about that vote?

#99 5 months ago

So I have a playfield with chipping. My distro went above and beyond for me. Spending his own money to make me whole. Jason at classic games rooms came through for me big time. Not all distro are the same and I highly recommend Jason for anyone looking for a new pin. Thanks Grindle3 for your help!

#100 5 months ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

So I have a playfield with chipping. My distro went above and beyond for me. Spending his own money to make me whole. Jason at classic games rooms came through for me big time. Not all distro are the same and I highly recommend Jason for anyone looking for a new pin. Thanks Grindle3 for your help!

Man I love hearing that. I just bought my first game from Jason, a STH Pro. I live close enough that I was able to pick up the game, and his warehouse is impressive. He is a really nice guy too.

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