(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

2 years ago


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#751 2 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

What about those that bought a CE = Collector's Edition - would it still be considered Collector's Quality with the defects?

The problem all owners are facing is that no matter what "designation" is placed on the thing, CE, LE, SE, in the end, they are still identified by the definition of what they (JJP) produce, a coin operated amusement device. Until a defect prevents this object from being able to provide entertainment for a reasonable fee, i.e. play a game of pinball, there is no way a lawyer could argue otherwise, so With defects, or not, they are providing a machine that takes in money, and provides a game of pinball. They do not warranty it from having any defects, they warranty it to be able to act as a coin operated amusement device, something it will do even if you stripped the playfield to bare wood.

#752 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The problem all owners are facing is that no matter what "designation" is placed on the thing, CE, LE, SE, in the end, they are still identified by the definition of what they (JJP) produce, a coin operated amusement device. Until a defect prevents this object from being able to provide entertainment for a reasonable fee, i.e. play a game of pinball, there is no way a lawyer could argue otherwise, so With defects, or not, they are providing a machine that takes in money, and provides a game of pinball. They do not warranty it from having any defects, they warranty it to be able to act as a coin operated amusement device, something it will do even if you stripped the playfield to bare wood.

Not sure I agree with this....

Jersey Jack Pinball machines are playable works of art that are built to last and mark unique milestones in the history of the game, providing owners an exceptional value from day one and for years to come.

https://www.jerseyjackpinball.com/about/

#753 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

The problem all owners are facing is that no matter what "designation" is placed on the thing, CE, LE, SE, in the end, they are still identified by the definition of what they (JJP) produce, a coin operated amusement device. Until a defect prevents this object from being able to provide entertainment for a reasonable fee, i.e. play a game of pinball, there is no way a lawyer could argue otherwise, so With defects, or not, they are providing a machine that takes in money, and provides a game of pinball. They do not warranty it from having any defects, they warranty it to be able to act as a coin operated amusement device, something it will do even if you stripped the playfield to bare wood.

exactly why I will not be a buyer

#754 2 years ago
Quoted from Palmer:

[quoted image]

I like it. I’ll buy two

#755 2 years ago
Quoted from Doctor6:

This is incredibly low brow, but I absolutely love it.

It really is... even for my standards.

19
#756 2 years ago

Wait, wait, wait... I am changing my position on this, IF it's true that JJP is offering to buy back the games at full price and cover the fees for shipping the game back to them...

Well, wtf? Send it back then. Problem solved. Move on with your life?

#757 2 years ago
Quoted from Dan1733:

Not sure I agree with this....
Jersey Jack Pinball machines are playable works of art that are built to last and mark unique milestones in the history of the game, providing owners an exceptional value from day one and for years to come.
https://www.jerseyjackpinball.com/about/

Not a ding on you, but Your agreement or disagreement with what I said will not matter to the lawyers, they will bring in a machine, with the defects, show it to the judge/jury, push play, play a game, then rest their case. Legally, providing a machine, no matter what it does or doesn't do, if it plays a game for money inserted, JJP is off the major hook, and they will say the defects are minor blemishes to be expected after playing on it for any amount of time, and anyone bringing a lawsuit against them will find out quite early on how to loose even more money to JJP In lawyers fees while chasing this white rabbit down a hole. This is not about customer satisfaction, this is about legal liability, and they have held up their end of the bargain, as far as they are concerned, it's just not the way the angry mob wanted this to play out.

#758 2 years ago

As of this posting, 5 of the 6 topmost threads on pinside general forum are discussing Mirco and JJP's fucked up playfields.

We're passing the "so sad it's funny" phase and moving into just sad.

#759 2 years ago
Quoted from Bublehead:

Not a ding on you, but Your agreement or disagreement with what I said will not matter to the lawyers, they will bring in a machine, with the defects, show it to the judge/jury, push play, play a game, then rest their case. Legally, providing a machine, no matter what it does or doesn't do, if it plays a game for money inserted, JJP is off the major hook, and they will say the defects are minor blemishes to be expected after playing on it for any amount of time, and anyone bringing a lawsuit against them will find out quite early on how to loose even more money to JJP In lawyers fees while chasing this white rabbit down a hole. This is not about customer satisfaction, this is about legal liability, and they have held up their end of the bargain, as far as they are concerned, it's just not the way the angry mob wanted this to play out.

I think you may be underestimating the ability/creativity of lawyers with respect to many states' consumer protection laws, advertising laws and the commercial code. Who knows, maybe someone will decide to test the same.

#760 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Allow me to shill for JJP for a moment...
THey are in a super tough and shitty situation, having sold what appears to be (at least) dozens of lemons at an incredibly high cost to seriously discerning buyers. A full refund/buyback is really their best option. They do not want to be babysitting these games for years on end, they don't want to be dealing with these angry buyers and their playfields for the foreseeable future, so they are offering everybody a chance to get out.
It sucks for people who want their games but at this point it makes the most sense for JJP. They want to wash their hands of this fiasco and move on and they'll never be able to do that if they are still dealing with these games for years to come. JJP isn't VW and they don't have the resources for this to go on for years while at the same time making everybody 100 percent happy. So this is what they've come up with.
In a couple hundred retail sales over the past 15 years I've sold a few lemons and eventually a buyback or trade offer has gone out to customers. At some point it's the best for everybody involved and in my case it's always worked out for myself and my customers.
If I owned one of these games I'd definitely be ready to move on with my life and get my money back. I'd know I could always buy one in the future once these issues are sorted out.
I know it sucks but I'd suggest to anyone affected they seriously consider this offer. It's clear JJP doesn't want to deal with these games anymore, so it's shit or get off the pot time for everybody.

Not a few lemons or even dozens. I would say it is in the hundreds. The nature of the problem of ink not adhering to the wood will affect most if not all machines eventually. It is no wonder JJP is ignoring people. This is a disaster in reality.

#761 2 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Not a few lemons or even dozens. I would say it is in the hundreds. The nature of the problem of ink not adhering to the wood will affect most if not all machines eventually. It is no wonder JJP is ignoring people. This is a disaster in reality.

Offering full refunds isn't ignoring people, nor is it a disaster for anybody but JJP. Hopefully they can make this work.

#762 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Offering full refunds isn't ignoring people, nor is it a disaster for anybody but JJP. Hopefully they can make this work.

Well the constant drumbeat here of “ Maybe it is just a few playfields that are defective “ isn’t helping anyone but JJP. The nature of the issue means most will have lifting artwork at some point. Looking at it the correct way is important to getting this resolved.

#763 2 years ago
Quoted from jandrea95:

The boxing material will be sent out.

After the game is boxed a pickup is scheduled.

So, They expect the customer to pack it up and get it ready?
They say a refund; but full retail value plus shipping?
I'm betting they pay "a" value for the game only... Probably minus the 1000 nonrefundable deposit and shipping fees both ways.
Let's not give them credit until
1) we have proof with details
2) that person(s) confirms they got said refund in a timely manner

#764 2 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

Well the constant drumbeat here of “ Maybe it is just a few playfields that are defective “ isn’t helping anyone but JJP.

I think we all know there's tons of fucked up playfields out there.

There's always a few contrarians but I don't think there's any kind of succesfull disinformation campaign here. We all know it's a big issue for far too many people and so does JJP.

-1
#765 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Constant drum beat?!
I think we all know there's tons of fucked up playfields out there.
There's always a few contrarians but I don't think there's any kind of massive disinformation campaign here. We all know it's a big issue for far too many people and so does JJP.

You go from dozens to a ton. Right………..

#766 2 years ago
Quoted from jandrea95:

I personally took JJP up on the buyback offer in February, and have never received a call as promised. This was on an SE. Maybe if I had a CE they would have called me back. I have my doubts anyone has received one dime back from JJP.

that is interesting. I would get my money back as well and move on but everyone is different.

#767 2 years ago

I was thinking Toy Story would be amazing..... but...

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#768 2 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

that is interesting. I would get my money back as well and move on but everyone is different.

Its a great solution for both LE and SE owners to just get a full refund (+ shipping costs)....thats a no brainer, but I'd be shocked if JJP actually did this...offering to buy back a CE is a no brainer (for JJP) as the market value is $5-10K higher, which means nobody will do it.

18
#769 2 years ago
Quoted from Extraballz:

You go from dozens to a ton. Right………..

(at least) dozens is what I wrote. So could be 100. Or 1000. That's what (at least) means and it's accurate. We've had dozens of complaints here, not thousands.

I don't understand why everything has to become a pitched battle based upon every single word here; this isn't a court room and we aren't under oath.

It makes it difficult and painful to discuss anything when people want to litigate every fucking word all the way to the Supreme Court.

#770 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

It sucks for people who want their games but at this point it makes the most sense for JJP. They want to wash their hands of this fiasco and move on and they'll never be able to do that if they are still dealing with these games for years to come.

Except this has been going on for multiple games in a row now... This isn't an isolated incident with one game, it's a series of games. If JJP really wanted to wash their hands of this then they'd actually fix the issue permanently and then move on. The fact that JJP clearly isn't remotely interested in fixing this IS the core problem here.

Jeff

#771 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Allow me to shill for JJP for a moment...

Now that’s what we like to see….some equal opportunity shilling.

#772 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Maybe? GNR was the only game JJP has ever made that sold out quickly (CE's)....all the other CE's took forever to sell

jjPotC CE sold out pretty quickly. Like 6 months, and really more like 1 month once everyone realized what a home run the game was.

#773 2 years ago
Quoted from Dan1733:

ability/creativity of lawyers

But what is the actual legal recourse of a finding for the owner of the machine? Another machine? Not likely. Your money back plus lawyers fees? Not likely. What are the actual damages that can be recovered? By offering a COMPLETE buy back, JJP is offering the ultimate recourse in most legal arenas. You are made completely whole, no lost money at all. Perceived lost value is of no consequence, even if it's market value is greater than the paid cost, the courts don't give a crap about that. You paid $10k plus shipping, you got a defective product, you sell it back for $10k plus shipping. You are whole in the eyes of the law. And no, they will not cover lawyers fees, nor would you likely recover any because they offered to make you whole (a satisfactory outcome to the courts) yet you refused the deal, therefore you are without recourse, or more commonly known as shit outta luck. This has played out the same way in so many situations in the past for other "artisan" labeled products, like high end guitars, collectors watches, anything where the value is subjective based on quality of the goods provided. The courts will always find for the company if they at anytime after the sale have offered to make the customer whole by refunding their entire purchase price, including shipping. It sucks but its what will happen here.

#774 2 years ago
Quoted from Bendit:

Wait, wait, wait... I am changing my position on this, IF it's true that JJP is offering to buy back the games at full price and cover the fees for shipping the game back to them...
Well, wtf? Send it back then. Problem solved. Move on with your life?

They did offer this, but the fact remains no one is chiming in stating they actually got the money back. I took them up on the offer to buy back my machine, was told I would get a call back in 2-6 weeks and never got a call. I checked back in and was told it’s still in process but would get a call from Jen, and never got a call.

This was in February. I don’t think they necessarily lied, but they certainly didn’t follow through, and their focus is most certainly not on taking care of upset customers currently.

Not trying to burn them at the stake, but they certainly will never see another dime of my money. They have yet to prove they can deal with any sort of volume whatsoever, and as a consumer, just disappointing.

Zero fucks given at this point, but I do feel it’s important that potential future customers understand the risks in dealing with this company. I think that’s reasonable.

#775 2 years ago
Quoted from woody76:

that is interesting. I would get my money back as well and move on but everyone is different.

I was prepared to take the buy back. They never called me back. Over 4 months now

#776 2 years ago
Quoted from jandrea95:

They did offer this, but the fact remains no one is chiming in stating they actually got the money back. I took them up on the offer to buy back my machine, was told I would get a call back in 2-6 weeks and never got a call. I checked back in and was told it’s still in process but would get a call from Jen, and never got a call.
This was in February. I don’t think they necessarily lied, but they certainly didn’t follow through, and their focus is most certainly not on taking care of upset customers currently.
Not trying to burn them at the stake, but they certainly will never see another dime of my money. They have yet to prove they can deal with any sort of volume whatsoever, and as a consumer, just disappointing.
Zero fucks given at this point, but I do feel it’s important that potential future customers understand the risks in dealing with this company. I think that’s reasonable.

But you listed and sold it in March? Did you give them 6 weeks to buy it back. Confused.

#777 2 years ago

JJP doesn’t know the game was sold. And still no call to follow up based on the post above. Does it matter when it was marked on pinside as sold? I imagine if you had a chance to make a faster exit to get your $$ without the hassle you would

Quoted from Yelobird:

But you listed and sold it in March? Did you give them 6 weeks to buy it back. Confused.

#778 2 years ago
Quoted from djsolzs:

JJP doesn’t know the game was sold. And still no call to follow up based on the post above. Does it matter when it was marked on pinside as sold? I imagine if you had a chance to make a faster exit to get your $$ without the hassle you would

Sure especially if he made a profit. Was just asking cause the question was IF they are really offering a buy back and those that said they did ended up selling the game Before that transpired.

#779 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

But you listed and sold it in March? Did you give them 6 weeks to buy it back. Confused.

Dunno why you are confused, JJP had no clue I sold the game. I would have informed them as such had they called me. Does me selling the game negate the fact they never followed up?

#780 2 years ago
Quoted from jandrea95:

Dunno why you are confused, JJP had no clue I sold the game. I would have informed them as such had they called me. Does me selling the game negate the fact they never followed up?

No just curious if that’s why they didn’t respond.

#781 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No just curious if that’s why they didn’t respond.

fair question

#782 2 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

jjPotC CE sold out pretty quickly. Like 6 months, and really more like 1 month once everyone realized what a home run the game was.

6 months is very different than a few hours (GNR).....it took years for WW and DI to sell out their CE's ....

#783 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No just curious if that’s why they didn’t respond.

Really do u think JJP follows real time market threads on PinSide? They didn't follow up because they chose not to, and buying back SE's or LE's is the last thing JJP wants to do. If they do its all good in my book

#784 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Really do u think JJP follows real time market threads on PinSide? They didn't follow up because they chose not to, and buying back SE's or LE's is the last thing JJP wants to do. If they do its all good in my book

No idea honestly. Though at times there are at least a half dozen JJP employees on the forum so anything is possible.

#785 2 years ago
Quoted from Yelobird:

No idea honestly. Though at times there are at least a half dozen JJP employees on the forum so anything is possible.

Good maybe they can chime in on all the rhetoric going on these days....would love to hear directly from JJP on things like play fields, customer support, buy backs, etc....

#786 2 years ago

I bet we'll find not a single buyback happens

#787 2 years ago
Quoted from Zitt:

I bet we'll find not a single buyback happens

I'm interested -- what're we betting?

#788 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Good maybe they can chime in on all the rhetoric going on these days....would love to hear directly from JJP on things like play fields, customer support, buy backs, etc....

Lol yeah I wouldn’t wait for that. My guess is they are in observation only mode.

#789 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I'm interested -- what're we betting?

My bet is they will offer to buy back CE's all day long (most won't sell them back)....LE's are an entirely different animal .... makes zero business sense for JJP to buy back the game versus just provide a new play field, which is why I doubt it will happen....shipping (original + return) would be more than the cost of a new play field

#790 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

My bet is they will offer to buy back CE's all day long (most won't sell them back)....LE's are an entirely different animal .... makes zero business sense for JJP to buy back the game versus just provide a new play field, which is why I doubt it will happen....shipping (original + return) would be more than the cost of a new play field

That might all be right, but Zitt seems to be betting that not a single buyback of any JJP GnR will occur, when it sounds like JJP is already offering them to at least a few folks. To win the bet all I'd need is for one customer to accept a buyback (and for JJP to cut the check, of course). Those odds sound alright to me.

#791 2 years ago

The legal angle is what is in play here. That they offered a buy back, wether you take it or not, if it covers every dime you spent on acquiring the product, in the eyes of the law, the customer is made whole and the issue is closed. If this is unsatisfactory to the buyer, JJP can tell them pack sand, we offered to make you whole, you refused, your legal recourse is exhausted. It's really that simple.

This is the best legal course of action by JJP, especially on a very desired title, because it closes every legal challenge that could be brought against them, and those who really want to keep the game, defects included, have no actionable path if they decline their offer. So keep the game and gripe, or sell it back and try again, but it's still a pf lottery. Or sell it to the highest bidder, make a little cash, and move on. The one thing that is not going to happen is keeping the game and have JJP offer you anything more than a buy back, they do not want to sell you a blank pf that may have defects as well, so their only legal dodge is buy backs.

But I believe if they buy back a product, it can no longer be sold as new, it must be listed as refurbished if they resell it, so get your calls in to your distributors and look out for them to quietly sell the refurbs to distributors who know people who want a CE, but are willing to accept the defects and the limited or non-existent warranty, and maybe pay less than MSRP for the chance.

#792 2 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Good maybe they can chime in on all the rhetoric going on these days....would love to hear directly from JJP on things like play fields, customer support, buy backs, etc....

They will say nothing because they don’t want to lose their job.

#793 2 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

Either of you “have the balls” to give up the $5k profit you can make selling your CE in order to make a point to JJP?

And then watch jjp sell it for 15k in 2 minutes on market place . LOL

14
#794 2 years ago

Do people really believe buyers are lining up to pay a premium if people start dumping these. I think the value is very artificial on a CE. It super sought after by the hard core because it is supposed to be the best of the best and limited. It's all about fear of missing out and having that beautiful example. If ten appeared on the market place all with bad playfields I think that bubble would burst. If JJP actually fixes this in future runs the market will not be kind to the ones with bad playfields.

#795 2 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

(at least) dozens is what I wrote. So could be 100. Or 1000. That's what (at least) means and it's accurate. We've had dozens of complaints here, not thousands.
I don't understand why everything has to become a pitched battle based upon every single word here; this isn't a court room and we aren't under oath.
It makes it difficult and painful to discuss anything when people want to litigate every fucking word all the way to the Supreme Court.

Well. If I thought it could possibly be a thousand I don’t think I would have said dozens. Feels like you were playing it as probably being a low number of overall PF’s. Maybe I am wrong but it felt that way. Plus you were a person who had downplayed the playfield problem since POTC. Maybe you have come around lately about it being a serious issue. So not actually hanging on every single word. Your intent and past history were more important in what I wrote. You were saying…..

#796 2 years ago
Quoted from JohnTTwo:

And then watch jjp sell it for 15k in 2 minutes on market place . LOL

They would probably “destroy” it and take the write off...

#797 2 years ago

There's been a few posts about the history of JJP playfield issues. Below is a summary of what I remember occurring over the years. I'm sure this isn't 100% correct as this is just off my memory since WOZ started shipping in 2013. What I learned after reading my comments below...make playfields to the exact spec / process from Hobbit lol.

WOZ

Original run: Some of the early original WOZ ECLE's and SE's with Bader made playfields had severe chipping in the State Fair, pops, and in front of the drop target areas. Part of this issue was due to those areas being high traffic and not having mylar installed from the factory. JJP later sent out mylar kits to customers, customers with chipped areas were offered decals. Again not all WOZ ECLE Bader made playfields were affected. JJP switched to Mirco at some point in either late 2013 or early 2014.

Hobbit

The first JJP game where 100% of the playfields were made by Mirco. From what I've read there's been 0 reports of playfield quality issues with Hobbit playfields. Personally I think the Hobbit playfields are the best playfields JJP has offered (and any manufacturer for that matter) in their games.

Dialed In

Some early Dialed In's had chipping at the SIM card and cell phone scoop. JJP attempted to correct the issue with factory made / installed metal edge protectors. The factory metal edge protectors didn't seem to work well and JJP later switched to installing official Cliffy protectors from the factory at the SIM and cell phone scoops.

Pirates

A majority of Pirates playfield seem affected by pooling / chipping, Pirates also seems to be the first JJP game where pooling is observed. JJP initially didn't install washers under sling posts on early Pirate builds, these games were most affected by pooling / chipping at the sling posts. Sometime in early 2019 JJP started to install plastic washers under sling posts. However, some owners with later build Pirates still reported pooling / chipping at other areas on the playfield.

Wonka

Pooling and chipping with early build Wonka's seemed widespread. Later build games seem to have had the issue corrected but reports of pooling / chipping continued, just not as widespread as with early build Wonkas.

GNR

Similar to Wonka, affecting early build games. Early GNR's didn't appear to be shipped with washers installed under posts, this changed starting sometime in early - mid 2021 with washers being installed under sling posts. Even with factory washers installed at posts some owners have reported pooling / chipping.

Added over 3 years ago:

Updating

#798 2 years ago

Just played a few games on my gorgeous GNRCE, and it’s a f ing beautiful machine, radcals, artwork, etc etc

You guys know it.

Also love my Big Lebowski. No comparison on the artwork/beauty but a great game nonetheless

This is in between watching and LOVING Lebron getting his ass kicked and finished for the year by the Suns!!!

Boom boom

#799 2 years ago

I can’t speak for anyone but myself .That being said I’ve owned 2 JJPs ,WOZRR was my first pin I purchased from a dude I met on pinside and the playfield was immaculate .Put some love in it,sold it ,Wish i had it back .Purchased my first NIB GnR LE arrived in April .Was so bat shit crazy about it i didn’t pay attention to a scoop problem. .This has been posted, I corrected it but still have questions ..My playfield is immaculate i’m trying to decide if i shoukd take precautionary measures or wait n see but reguardless of what condition your playfield is in I’d strongly advise to chill out and work things out because this is the absolute best pin you will find for fun and long legs .It’s a code that will last the test of time .I truly think if you give up on this pin it’s because you blow at pinball .

#800 2 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

This is in between watching and LOVING Lebron getting his ass kicked and finished for the year by the Suns!!!

Well I don't know anything aboot Radcals but I always love watching LeBron lose, so thanks for reminding me so I can turn on the end of thr crying, pissing, & moaning....er I mean game.

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