Why would you take them up on the buyback offer when you can sell it to someone else for a lot more? No one would do that. Since you don't want to sell it, I say try to push a little harder for an unpopulated pf. That's got to be cheaper and easier for JJP, right?? Unbelievable that JJP wouldn't want to do that.

Not sure about the Cliffy's. I've looked into that, but still not sure what's in there. But whatever is install seems to be holding up.

Scoops seem to be OK. Dimples are not noticeable unless you really look for them.

I looked for a PF build date, but didn't see a date in the front area or the sides.

Sorry all - didn't mean to derail the thread w/DI posts- just wanted to share my DI w/a 8-2017 build date.

Big difference between then and now.
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I guarantee if you sell it yourself you'll get a lot more than the buyback price JJP are offering, regardless of how bad the PF may be...

If you truly want a bare playfield, I would consider getting a lawyer involved. There are specific weak points in the warranty a lawyer will be able to use to give you the recourse you are looking for. JJP will not change their behavior until it is cheaper to make a non-defective playfield than it is to keep paying to defend a litany of lawsuits.

After reading JJP's response with this issue, there is absolutely no grail theme out there that I would ever consider buying NIB from JJP until they can prove to us they have changed.

To me - the advantage of finding a domestic manufacturer & paying a higher price seems obvious. This is not rocket science, there has got to be another company in the US that can CNC plywood, print it, add inserts, and clear coat it. My guess is a large sign company could start doing this without much investment.

With a domestic based PF company, JJP can oversee quality much easier.

If enough of you grow some balls and sell them back JJP will fix the issue. Keep going at the rate you are and ya’ll are fucked. I’m out of any JJP pins ever. New or used, DONE. Enjoy

Never happen, people are trying to actually pay to get new PF's
What other product do you buy defective where you offer the company money to fix it?
If I had a CE, I would sell it back to them in a heartbeat, or to another collector if they were insane enough to pay me more than it cost me with the defective PF

Either of you “have the balls” to give up the $5k profit you can make selling your CE in order to make a point to JJP?

I don't own a CE (tried to get one, and then was going to get an LE before the issues surfaced)
but if I had one, I 100% would sell it back to JJP or to another collector if they were willing to pay more

selling it back to JJP won't make a point to them at all
At this junction, they are either fully aware they have an issue that 100% needs to be fixed going forward, or they just don't care.
A few people selling machines back to them won't make a difference.

If I had an LE with a badly damaged PF and they offered to buy it back, id do it. You’ll be able to pick up an LE down the track for below RRP I would assume.

But I don’t think they’ve offered it recently to LE owners? (Was only offered very very early on in production when they were trying to pretend they fixed the issues). Likely because they know people will take them up on it if they do. The only recent offers have been to CE buyers AFAIK. They know full well no CE buyers are taking them up on the offer.

That's it in a nutshell. There is no fix and pins still work just fine. If someone is truly that unhappy then they would be glad to sell it back. Wants the point of buying a new pf is the whole process is flawed? You will then be trying to get JJP to warranty bad replacement pf's.

This almost seems passive aggressive to me. For reasons already stated in this thread, they are playing a "calling your bluff" card on how bad the damage actually is.

It's shrewd and calculating, and not a way to build customer loyalty.

I know pinball is a crazy industry, but it seems foolish to assume there is an inexhaustible supply of new pinball owners to replace every unsatisfied one. Just because the cliff hasn't been found yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This buyback offer is the Schrodinger's cat of pinball warranties.

Buying back a CE is an easy decision for JJP due to the market pricing of that model. Has JJP offered to buy back any LE's? My guess is many LE owners would take that offer in a heartbeat

They offered to buy back at least one pinsiders SE.

I took the offer and they never followed through, i think 6 weeks is more than fair to wait, nothing but crickets. I know there was one other that waited 3 months and nothing, so JJP is full of shit on the buyback.

It seems really odd that they say they're going to inspect the machine for additional damage if you send it in for a refund. I think I remember on a Deadflip stream awhile back Jack mentioned Stern gets rid of all parts that are returned because it would be a legal liability if they recycled any returned part into a new machine and something went wrong with it.

Presumably when JJP offers the refund due to playfield chipping they've already accepted that the playfield issue is sufficient for a refund by looking at pictures, so it seems like there shouldn't be any issue/need for any additional inspection beyond that to qualify for the refund. Unless maybe they're trying to recycle machines or parts, which would not be good.

So basically it sounds like JJP is just throwing this language in there to try to plant an idea in the owner's mind that the refund might not get final approval after the machine is sent back. That way it's less likely the owner actually takes the offer and when it's refused JJP can just say "Hey, our proposed solution was the offer to buy it back and you declined it". Then JJP can carry on without incurring any cost to remedy the issue of their bad product. And if you call their bluff and accept the buyback then they just don't respond and delay hoping they never actually have to follow through on it.

It's evil genius at work. Definitely not a good example of good customer service and standing behind the quality of the product.

I would keep sending them emails so its on the record. Was the offer made in writing (i.e. email)? My guess is the last thing they want to do is buy back LE's. Buying back a CE is a no brainer as they could resell it to one of their distributors in 5 minutes.

As much as I hate litigation... It's beyond time for that. It's so insanely stupid that JJP refuses to send out replacement PFs which would cost them a hell of a lot less than buybacks and if they're going to do buybacks then they should be doing it for the market price. This entire attitude wreaks of entitlement and JJP needs to be put right back in it's place. I just don't see any other way than to sue their pants off. Will those actually affected get anything out of it? Nope, probably not but... Perhaps this will cost JJP so much in lawyers fees, bad publicity, and such that they either actually fix this permanently or go bankrupt. Either way, if the community is going to continue to allow this garbage from them then garbage is all we're going to get and that's simply not right. F JJP...

Jeff

Barry responded to my question regarding the play fields and my LE order that’s coming. I asked how they’re handling the situation and here’s his response.

Hello Steve,

We are continuing to address each issue on a case by case basis.
This is a small percentage over all.
We only offered buy back on the CE because the CE run is sold out and replacement was not an option.

We never have offered populated playfields and that still is true today.

To recap, this is a small group, we offered to everyone affected a very generous resolution based on their game model.

Barry Engler
Jersey Jack Pinball
(331) 223-9396
Sent From My Android

Complete and total lie. I'd run the other way if I were you... For one, they can get more CE playfields if they wanted to, they just don't. Secondly, anyone here of a "very generous resolution" for ANYONE...???

Jeff

With wiz I burnt up their phones. I called till they answered and called till they sent the PF but then Jack sent me a shit one and I sold it and bought a good one through Jen.

Why did you settle for a shitty replacement play field? The good news us you had an option to buy another play field. It appears JJP isn't even offering that option at the moment.

The host of the story was to burn their phones up. Call and drive them insane. I personally think they deserve to be sued. This issue has been going on since they started and they are knowingly selling la flawed product. But I am no lawyer.

Cause they know the replacement they would send you is also the same shit quality????

And THAT my friends........is WHY Toy Story will sell out again right away and the PF problem is just really not much of a problem when you can not only get a full refund from the manufacturer BUT you can also sell your "shitty pf game" for much more than you paid.

Not many people are really ever gonna do a PF swap. Maybe play the one you have until you wear out the thing with 50k plays and then send it HEP to make it "perfect" again. There you go, great solution!

Not sure this is true or not? My guess is they sent out hundreds of replacement play fields for POTC and WW although my guess is very few actually did the play field swap so we really don't know.

Maybe? GNR was the only game JJP has ever made that sold out quickly (CE's)....all the other CE's took forever to sell

But then they did right? POTCCE with it's "shit pf's" now sell for over $35k

WonkaCE's just sold out the remaining at $12,500.

For the moment, whether it's houses, travel, pinball etc. people are spending the shit out of $$$ they have had to save over Covid.

The day of reckoning is coming but it's not this year!

AND as you get older, i promise you, you begin to care less and less about the little things that don't matter much.

The amount of pinball crap i've accumulated sitting in boxes that will never be opened most likely until after i'm gone is astounding. How much shit do you have? Life is short.

My guess is that replacement playfields for POTC were closer to the single digits.

With everything going on, inflation, oil will be through the roof, and much more, the economy is going to go to shit. People buying 12k pins is going to stop. Jersey Junk Playfields better enjoy this while it lasts

Warning: Realism ahead!

When has anyone ever NOT been shrewd and calculating in a profitable business? What JJP is doing is classic Business 101. Handle all product defect issues individually and in private. Do the least amount as possible to satisfy the most vocal customers, and NEVER make an open statement to potential customers that there are any problems, because there are no problems that prevent the machines from performing their intended purpose. Stand on your warranty that says we will repair or replace only when the product can no longer function as intended. This is sound legal advise that they are getting from their counsel, I can guarantee it.

And that is the big rub for everyone who wants a "perfect" playfield. JJP can stand back and lawyer up and do absolutely nothing, and they would be within their rights.

The following is the phrase that just about every lawyer will agree with:

None of the defects that customers are experiencing makes the machine unusable as a coin operated amusement device.

Maybe we need to say that again for emphasis-

None of the defects that customers are experiencing makes the machine unusable as a coin operated amusement device.

I am not a JJP fanboy, don't own any, haven't seen one I can't live without, but I am also a realist, and anyone living in the fantasy world that JJP will suddenly jump up on a soap box, scream "Our playfields suck and we are working on it" is fooling themselves.

If I did own a GnRCE, I would be selling it to another collector if they are willing to buy it at going market rates, or selling it back to JJP if nobody else wants it at MSRP plus shipping. That is just simple Economics 101. It sucks, I would be pissed, but as someone who understands the reality of being in business, I also know what to expect from one, and isn't it surprising, be it Stern, JJP, or you name the manufacturer, they all follow this same playbook when playfield defects crop up? Hell even Bally/Williams back in the day did the same thing when people complained and the results were the same back then, too.

Moral to the story: be loud, be obnoxious, be vocal, get in their face and the face of potential customers. Put up a billboard near the factory, take out an ad in trade magazines, post to social media, start a "Screwed by JJP" fan club. "Only the squeaky wheel gets the grease" is a saying that applies here. A Class action lawsuit is a dead end (see lawyer loving legal statement above) so the court of public opinion is all you have left.

Much easier for sure. But I ain't buying then.

I am not helpless when it comes to fixing machines, but there's no f'ing way I would tackle a PF swap on any JJP machine. Not just because I don't have the time, but mainly because these machines cost too much to begin with. To expect customers to spend 80+ hours on a PF swap is just nuts...

Agreed. My Hobbit looks good as well. Dimpling is the least of the worries here.

I've been working on pinball machines over 20 years and the last thing I want to do is attempt my first playfield swap...especially on a game I paid LE money for.

Fortunately my LZLE has a gorgeous playfield, guess I lucked out.

Fair enough.

Jeff

That is exactly it. A 100% calculated outcome. Decide what the desired level of responsibility is wanted and then make a legally reviewed stance to present to the customer.

Some will not even consider the offer.
Some will worry about the parameters.
Some will tire over time.
Some will sell privately.
Some will just play the game.

Few will actually follow thru with the return.

JJP ends up taking the route of least liability. And that is a win in today’s business world...

I posted this in another thread:

JJP getting called out on Twitter...
https://twitter.com/neilmcrae/status/1395033318366789633?s=20

Makes me wonder when distributors are going to start pushing back and saying enough is enough and simply drop JJP all together. Yeah I realize JJP sells direct but I'll bet they really don't want to be on an island with no buffer between the customer and them. Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think JJP can survive on direct sales alone. I know what my distributor had to go through to get my POTC CE playfield replacement and there is no way I'd have gotten one if I had to deal direct. That experience alone is why I'd never buy from JJP direct either for that matter.

Jeff

lol

I stopped by and spoke with a distributor in central MO a couple months ago who told me that they dropped JJP due to all the issues. I didn't press, but I assume they were getting far too many complaints relative to others. I believe they just deal with NIB Stern (and lots of renovations...which is why I was there).

This is a start, but FB is more visible than Twitter, since they push the posts via algorithm. This works way better on bigger companies, we got our LG refrigerator repaired the same day my wife posted a big post to their page saying we were not getting good customer service. If she hadn't posted, we were stuck with a broken refrigerator and about $300 worth of food that was going to go bad. They got a repairman there within 2 hours.

Allow me to shill for JJP for a moment...

THey are in a super tough and shitty situation, having sold what appears to be (at least) dozens of lemons at an incredibly high cost to seriously discerning buyers. A full refund/buyback is really their best option. They do not want to be babysitting these games for years on end, they don't want to be dealing with these angry buyers and their playfields for the foreseeable future, so they are offering everybody a chance to get out.

It sucks for people who want their games but at this point it makes the most sense for JJP. They want to wash their hands of this fiasco and move on and they'll never be able to do that if they are still dealing with these games for years to come. JJP isn't VW and they don't have the resources for this to go on for years while at the same time making everybody 100 percent happy. So this is what they've come up with.

In a couple hundred retail sales over the past 15 years I've sold a few lemons and eventually a buyback or trade offer has gone out to customers. At some point it's the best for everybody involved and in my case it's always worked out for myself and my customers.

If I owned one of these games I'd definitely be ready to move on with my life and get my money back. I'd know I could always buy one in the future once these issues are sorted out.

I know it sucks but I'd suggest to anyone affected they seriously consider this offer. It's clear JJP doesn't want to deal with these games anymore, so it's shit or get off the pot time for everybody.

What about those that bought a CE = Collector's Edition - would it still be considered Collector's Quality with the defects?

There is actually someone else on that very post who called them out BEFORE the comment to which you point. Someone named "gribbs2". Hmmm...that name sounds familiar.

Levi makes perfect sense but we're talking about a demographic who won't take refunds even for nonexistent RAZAs.

Except, they aren't. From members that have posted here saying they got a buyback offer, JJP went completely silent. I haven't heard of anyone going through the buyback process successfully. It's a bullshit offer.

This is incredibly low brow, but I absolutely love it.

It seems the offer has been renewed and made "official," with a deadline of next week. Let's see if anybody takes them up on it and if JJP follows through. As they are sending out this offer in writing I'm inclined to believe they will.

I think from this post, at least DP/Barry appears to be aware Mirco is a problem. I’m betting Mirco will eat a huge expense if the F up their playfields or they will go elsewhere. Something JJP should admit & commit to instead of losing more customers forever

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