(Topic ID: 292889)

Why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields?

By PanzerFreak

45 days ago


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  • Latest reply 2 hours ago by cooked71
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There are 1021 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 21.
41
#1 45 days ago

I'm really tired of this one but after playfield issues plaguing Pirates, then early's Wonka's, and now early GNR's (and at least 1 recent April 2021 build) I can't help but to ask why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields? Why is JJP not holding Mirco accountable for these issues if it's on them or not allowing playfields enough time to cure? Why after 3 games with this issue has JJP not changed playfield manufactures if the issue is on Mircos side? This issue is negatively impacting otherwise great games and I don't understand why JJP has tolerated it. I'm sure JJP has said things internally and to Mirco about this issue but they are still tolerating it by not permanently fixing the issue (washers don't count either).

Mirco made some of the best quality playfields in pinball with Hobbit. On a related note I have 5+ year old STTNG Mirco playfield and it's perfect. Something had to have changed between Dialed In and Pirates. Some early Dialed In's had chipping but that seemed related to no protection from the factory at scoops for early builds, no pooling occurred. Since Pirates though JJP has been selling games that almost at random or in batches have pooling and or chipping around posts. For $8k - $12k+ buyers should not have to play the playfield quality lottery. To make matters worse JJP is no longer sending replacement playfields for affected games. Just recently I've seen reports of two $12,500 GNR CE's with December builds having chipping / pooling. The resolution from JJP was to send washers...

Finally, if this problem cannot be resolved due to digital print technology issues and or clear coat materials why doesn't JJP at least remove artwork around sling posts like Stern did to solve the issue? JJP actually did just that with many areas on WOZ and Hobbit. Do something at least! Shipping games with washers is a band aid and only proves that the issue still exists.

One last thing, I have have a GNR LE on order that should be shipped next month. I'm hoping I win the playfield lottery and have a great game. However, as I mentioned above at least one owner with an April build (with washers installed at the factory) had pooling / chipping in at least one playfield area towards the back of the game...

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129
#2 45 days ago

The real question is why do people continue to buy games if they know the quality is subpar. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

#3 45 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The real question is why do people continue to buy games if they know the quality is subpar. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

Good point. I'm waiting at least 6 months before buying any new JJP game as all now appear to have early playfield issues. I was thinking of doing the same thing with Stern but they have solved the issue by removing artwork around all posts.

However, it's now been 6+ months since GNR was announced and there's at least 1 report of pooling / chipping at a rear game post in an April 2021 build (when JJP is now shipping games with washers). It truly looks awful and I would be beyond pissed if it happened on my game considering these insane prices.

#4 45 days ago

Question should be "why does Mirco continue to put out poor quality playfields". The answer is .... cause he can as JJP doesn't have another source to go to for them!

Be great to see JJP bring the pf work in house and take the business away from Mirco. Maybe at that point Mirco will care about putting out quality instead of quantity. I doubt it as Mirco's position on quality has always been to ignore it. In another post Mirco put up a pf he was releasing and people were advising him of differences and flaws in the artwork .... for the most part he ignored them and just produced the pf with the flaws.

#5 45 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Stern solved the issue by removing artwork around all posts.

How is that a solution? Was it determined that artwork ink tended to delaminate around high impact areas? Or are Sterns still chipping / pooling in these areas but you don't notice it as badly on plain wood?

#6 45 days ago

Let's see what people say how the new Fathom remake plays. Maybe Haggis will be able to license their new pinball innovation to other manufacturers ... if others reaaaaaaaly care about indestructable playfields.

#7 45 days ago

Because they can... They have a line around the block waiting to buy their latest game so what's the incentive for them to actually address this issue? Answer, none whatsoever. My primary distributor told me a few months ago when I had a PF issue with my Stern TMNT LE (Stern sent me an unpopulated playfield as a result which was fine by me), that they only way this is ever going to get addressed is if people stop buying NIB. But, we both acknowledged that was unlikely to ever actually happen so expect the playfield lottery to be the "norm" moving forward...

Jeff

-36
#8 45 days ago

Still not sure why this bothers people. It's literally a 30 minute job to lay flat and protect and you never notice it ever again. Get er done! Enjoy great pinball!

19
#9 45 days ago
Quoted from Vitty:

Still not sure why this bothers people. It's literally a 30 minute job to lay flat and protect and you never notice it ever again.

Its a manufacturer defect with artwork literally lifting off the playfield. For $8k - $12k + buyers shouldn't have to be applying "fixes" that often look bad. Large washers all over the place look terrible.

19
#10 45 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

why doesn't JJP ... ?

You answered your own question below.

Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I have have a GNR LE on order that should be shipped next month. I'm hoping I win the playfield lottery and have a great game.

Try speaking with your wallet! Until people do, none of these quality issues will change.

#11 45 days ago

... and yet people continue to buy them.
There are many manufacturers in the world making POS stuff that will continue to do so until the market (i.e., customers) stop buying crappy products.

#12 45 days ago
Quoted from Vitty:

Still not sure why this bothers people. It's literally a 30 minute job to lay flat and protect and you never notice it ever again. Get er done!

AKA, "You'll eat this shit, and like it!"

21
#13 45 days ago

Theme whores, FOMO, rich people, flippers, the bullshit legend of "JJP quality," not really caring that much as it doesn't affect resale that much etc etc

12
#14 45 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

No its not. I hate when people say this.

#15 45 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

No its not. I hate when people say this.

Right. It's called controlled experimentation to test a hypothesis.

#16 45 days ago

Obviously the vast majority of pinball buyers - be they home or route - don't care about minor playfield flaws.

The only way to protect yourself from the risk of buying a playfield that isn't flawless is to stop buying pinball machines.

#17 45 days ago

the better question is, why is JJP still making games with crappy GI lighting? you think they would have fixed this by now, but GNR has the same half assed GI lighting as WOZ does. Have they not learned anything?

Inserts are brighter than the GI's. Can't see shit.

#18 45 days ago

For a small sum of $250 JJP will send you the improved pf kit.

Stern’s kit will cost $2500 but it’s limited edition, so...

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#19 45 days ago
Quoted from Haymaker:

No its not. I hate when people say this.

“The definition of insanity is saying the same thing over and over expecting different results.”

Fixed it for ya.

11
#20 45 days ago
Quoted from Vitty:

Still not sure why this bothers people. It's literally a 30 minute job to lay flat and protect and you never notice it ever again. Get er done! Enjoy great pinball!

You're a dream customer for these people. What the hell kinda answer is this?

#21 45 days ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

the better question is, why is JJP still making games with crappy GI lighting? you think they would have fixed this by now, but GNR has the same half assed GI lighting as WOZ does. Have they not learned anything?
Inserts are brighter than the GI's. Can't see shit.

Not all have bad lighting. Hobbit and dialed in are perfectly fine. But yeah... woz is a lighting nightmare.

#22 45 days ago

"... why doesn't JJP at least remove artwork around sling posts like Stern did to solve the issue?"

I guess I don't understand what that solves unless pooling is okay as long as there's no artwork under it?

#23 45 days ago
Quoted from jorant:

Not all have bad lighting. Hobbit and dialed in are perfectly fine. But yeah... woz is a lighting nightmare.

Wonka has the worst GI lighting I have ever seen. It is the only game in the modern LED era that actually needs Pinstadium lighting.

#24 45 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

"... why doesn't JJP at least remove artwork around sling posts like Stern did to solve the issue?"
I guess I don't understand what that solves unless pooling is okay as long as there's no artwork under it?

I can't 100% confirm this but I think there's been zero reports of pooling / chipping at any post in Stern pins where the artwork has been removed. Stern had the same issue with early Jurassic Park's, they then removed artwork around all posts for later runs and the issue was solved. Stern has since removed artwork around posts on all of their games going forward.

Many here have speculated that the cause of pooling / chipping issue is the new digital playfield artwork print process and that the pressure from posts can result in it occurring. Stern got around this by removing artwork surrounding all posts, no ugly washer band aids needed.

#25 45 days ago
Quoted from frenchmarky:

"... why doesn't JJP at least remove artwork around sling posts like Stern did to solve the issue?"
I guess I don't understand what that solves unless pooling is okay as long as there's no artwork under it?

The artwork is applied digitally rather than silk screen. The theory is the artwork isn't bonded as well and is being pulled by the clear and helping make the pooling and chipping worse than areas where the clear is directly applied to the wood. The past three games from Stern have had no issues with pooling since they started this. Compared to the prolific pooling issues, there have been a very few issues with warped playfields from Stern on the latest games. Stern seems to be replacing them in a fairly timely manner though.

10
#26 45 days ago

Because they view this community as a bunch of suckers that does NOT know how to say "no".

Its like watching your friend date a crazy chick. She's hot AF, but she also is hurtful, manipulative, toys with your emotions, and is known to commit false allegations of rape - but hey - she is hot and you bagged her so roll the dice and hope it works out!!!

Least it is not a cargument.

#27 45 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I'm really tired of this one but after playfield issues plaguing Pirates, then early's Wonka's, and now early GNR's (and at least 1 recent April 2021 build) I can't help but to ask why is JJP still making games with faulty playfields? Why is JJP not holding Mirco accountable for these issues if it's on them or not allowing playfields enough time to cure?...

One last thing, I have have a GNR LE on order that should be shipped next month. I'm hoping I win the playfield lottery and have a great game. However, as I mentioned above at least one owner with an April build (with washers installed at the factory) had pooling / chipping in at least one playfield area towards the back of the game...
[quoted image]

Looks like you answered your own question. You people simply dont know how to say "no". You HAVE to have that "ooo shiney" that you're willing to take a five digit risk. Dude, you're putting $10K+ out HOPING it is going to work out for you.

Give it to me. I'll invest in crypto and make WAY more money for you, and best of all, you wont feel bent over.

#28 45 days ago
Quoted from jorant:

Not all have bad lighting. Hobbit and dialed in are perfectly fine. But yeah... woz is a lighting nightmare.

that is true. DI seems to be ok with lighting. POTC is dark as well. He needs to get away from that clear posts to try and distribute GI lighting. They do not project out enough.

#29 45 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The real question is why do people continue to buy games if they know the quality is subpar. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

Why do crack heads keep smoking crack?

10
#30 45 days ago

I can’t imagine paying 20, or 30k for games with shit playfields. Apparently people don’t care about it though. 12k for a game with a shit playfield seems like a deal

#31 44 days ago

The advantage of this new thread over the other one (Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern By f3honda4me (1 year ago)) is that this one only has 30 posts. I just can't bring myself to read the 1041 new posts in that other thread - but I was keeping up for a while.

I do believe, that we have come to expect super high gloss, mirror-like surfaces on our new games and this drives manufacturers to exceed the recommended layer thicknesses of the paint suppliers rather than apply multiple layers (which would be expensive). It also means these surfaces show every imperfection.

#32 44 days ago
Quoted from branlon8:

The advantage of this new thread over the other one (Continued playfield issues with JJP and Stern By f3honda4me (1 year ago)) is that this one only has 30 posts. I just can't bring myself to read the 1041 new posts in that other thread - but I was keeping up for a while.
I do believe, that we have come to expect super high gloss, mirror-like surfaces on our new games and this drives manufacturers to exceed the recommended layer thicknesses of the paint suppliers rather than apply multiple layers (which would be expensive). It also means these surfaces show every imperfection.

Yesh, sadly as far as "continued" playfield issues go it's now just JJP. Stern thankfully actually did something other then washers to correct the issue. Removing artwork around all sling posts fixed the issue for Stern. Why JJP doesn't do the same thing is beyond annoying.

-2
#33 44 days ago

Has there been a pin with common issues besides WW? Thats the only one I've seen "constant" issues

#34 44 days ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Yesh, sadly as far as "continued" playfield issues go it's now just JJP. Stern thankfully actually did something other then washers to correct the issue. Removing artwork around all sling posts fixed the issue for Stern. Why JJP doesn't do the same thing is beyond annoying.

Stern still has issues, guide rails digging into playfields, pulling clear and artwork up. Stern did, however, change their process I think with Elvira. Noticeably thinner clear coat.

#35 44 days ago
Quoted from Lermods:

Stern still has issues, guide rails digging into playfields, pulling clear and artwork up. Stern did, however, change their process I think with Elvira. Noticeably thinner clear coat.

Good point about guide rails digging into playfields on Stern games, have seen that.

#36 44 days ago

It seems that a few players in the industry are still in the 1980's and 90's mindset that these machines are for operators and not collectors. Crazy to me that Haggis is the only one that has actually even publicly addressed the issue and used it to their advantage to appeal to the home collector. Baffling really that they are the only one.

#37 44 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The real question is why do people continue to buy games if they know the quality is subpar. The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

Bingo

#38 44 days ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

Why do crack heads keep smoking crack?

yep, lots of mental illness in this hobby. I have seen this hobby ruin families just like drugs. insane.

#39 44 days ago

why single out JJP , Stern does the same thing ... terrible clearcoat , misprints ... faded colors

#40 44 days ago
Quoted from transprtr4u:

why single out JJP , Stern does the same thing ... terrible clearcoat , misprints ... faded colors

JJP was singled out because Stern, love them or hate them, is trying to fix the problem. The point of the thread is JJP throws a few washers on the game and called it good enough and isn't addressing the real issue.

13
#41 44 days ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Theme whores, FOMO, rich people, flippers, the bullshit legend of "JJP quality," not really caring that much as it doesn't affect resale that much etc etc

Loved: the bullshit legend of "JJP quality,"

#42 44 days ago
Quoted from Mrawesome44:

The definition of Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome

Quoted from Haymaker:

I hate when people say this.

I hate when people say that Einstein said it, because of course he didn't.

-11
#43 44 days ago

I am going to be in the new generation of first time nib jjp pin owners (whenever it finally ships) and accept that I'm definitely part of the problem in some people's minds as I wish mine would hurry up and ship so I can enjoy playing it in between installing mods, learning how to fix the issues (under warranty) and to care for it. I'm jjps perfect customer...a fixit kind of guy. I think I should be rewarded and moved to the front of the line!! (Are you reading this JJP!?!? Hint:Order: 466-SO114303 ) It will be my first pin!!! I accept the task! Eyes wide open! Gnfr!

12
#44 44 days ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I hate when people say that Einstein said it, because of course he didn't.

Yeah thats just the diarrhea icing on top of the shit cake when it gets attributed to Einstein

"don't believe everything you read on the internet"
-Abraham Lincoln

#45 44 days ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Loved: the bullshit legend of "JJP quality,"

I still think there are a number of items where JJP exceeds Stern's quality standards but this playfield issue is destroying that reputation. It's probably the worst quality issue a pinball machine can have, 2nd I would say is a cracked cabinet, 3rd is decal issues. JJP cannot honestly market themselves as making the highest quality pinball machines with this issue popping up in their last 3 titles and then what seems like almost randomly throughout runs.

This issue should have been corrected with Pirates and then been done with. The fact that it still hasn't been fixed after Wonka and now GNR is embarrassing. The washer "fix" is basically a message to customers of "We know there's an issue and don't care".

#46 44 days ago

These playfield issues present a few problems for hobbyists:

First, we have no idea the degree of frequency the problems actually occur. Obviously they DO occur, otherwise we would not see posts here (justifiably) complaining about them. As a result, I see posts indicating “I am going to buy xxx game, and just hope I get lucky…” to “I have bought xxx games without issues, so I think things are probably fine.” While the playfield issues are certainly significant to an individual collector, how frequently the issues actually manifest is directly related to how seriously the manufacturer treats and investigates the issue.

Second, no one seems to be sure of what actually causes these problems… Theories here range from: (1) it’s the wood; (2) it’s the clearcoat; (3) not enough “drying/curing” time; (4) change in process/chemicals; (5) adhesion problems with the clear and ink; etc. as the more common explanations I see. Theoretically, I would assume the manufacturer would be happy to fix any one of those (and pass the cost along to us) assuming they knew what was actually causing the issue…

However, because games keep coming off the lines with issues, I have to assume (a) they don’t know what is causing it, and consequently can’t fix it; or (b) know what is causing it, and have determined the frequency of occurrence to be so low it is not worth a process change.

Consequently, I am not sure the “vote with your wallet” argument will get us what we want—namely, a product that doesn’t flake off the wood. Quizzically, when sales drop off at a manufacturer, it usually results in cost-cutting measures or attempts at innovation… QC isn’t typically where revenue gets committed. Moreover, pinball is red hot right now, and I don’t see that changing anytime soon. Further, the sales environment is evolving. I think we assume most buyers of new games are home-users (and this is probably true) but I have to imaging a growing market is the arcade sector which is changing the balance a bit. Pre and post-COVID, new arcades are being born as “bar-cades,” and “museums” and I have found an ever-increasing number of "hobbyists" that have expanded into routing handfuls of games… I haven't seen this number of "wild" pinball machines since the 90's... I subscribe to a mainstream news feed with a keyword of pinball, and the number of local/regional articles highlighting new commercial businesses featuring pinball is staggering to me… Commercial use is growing, and there is less of a concern of "Collectors Quality" among those folks…

Here is what I would say… Is it is vocalizing our concerns to the manufacturer which will drive change. Tell your distributer playfield quality is important. Ask them before you buy if they will back you on playfield issues, and get it in email. Fill out surveys when you buy games. Email JJP and Stern asking how they stand behind their playfields. Post on social media. Make it known to THEM that this is important, and they need to figure it out/address it.

#47 44 days ago
Quoted from jrdjhnson:

However, because games keep coming off the lines with issues, I have to assume (a) they don’t know what is causing it, and consequently can’t fix it; or (b) know what is causing it, and have determined the frequency of occurrence to be so low it is not worth a process change.

Quoted from jrdjhnson:

Here is what I would say… Is it is vocalizing our concerns to the manufacturer which will drive change.

This matter is entirely too serious for such an intelligent comment

36
#48 44 days ago

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#49 44 days ago

Easy to say stop buying.
But the manufacturer’s draw you in saying they have isolated and fixed the problem, you part with your cash, same old shit show occurs.
Once you’ve paid your deposit your scammed..... again!

#50 44 days ago
Quoted from Sako-TRG:

But the manufacturer’s draw you in saying they have isolated and fixed the problem

The problem can't just be **fixed** (unless somebody wants to buy a new $200,000 printer).

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