(Topic ID: 52953)

Why is it so difficult....?

By Sharon

10 years ago


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  • 33 posts
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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by phishrace
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    #1 10 years ago

    Why is it so difficult to find someone to teach pin repairs?

    I've met some really amazing (and that's an understatement) people here who have helped me when I get stuck on a repair, who have supplied me with parts I never thought I could find, and who have given support when I was ready to covert something to firewood.

    I know with the decline (or possibly they just never were) of arcades in my area that there are not as many people in the repair business, and I really would not care to get into doing it for other people...but I would really like to learn how to work on my own machines a lot better. I can find my way through a schematic, and I can solder, I can take a thing apart and put it together, but that doesn't give me the general knowledge of say, 'when this happens, it's because of these three things' that some people have and can tell you without opening a manual or lifting a playfield.

    I'd love to spend time in a shop or even ride along on a route watching repairs, learning techniques, and picking people's brains. I'd go to workshops within a reasonable distance. I haven't found anyone that would do that though.

    I know there are some people that are lucky enough to have (current or past) jobs repairing, so they know all about them. Does everyone else learn by fumbling through until it works? I hate not knowing what to do next when I'm trying to make something work.

    13
    #2 10 years ago

    Because it's a job that doesn't pay well, most techs in the field now empty a cash box and clean a screen.

    So it's harder to find anyone skilled to help you.

    But wait, I'll let you in on a little secret. Did you see this in a post on Pinside ?

    " I can find my way through a schematic, and I can solder, I can take a thing apart and put it together".

    Now there is a man well on his way to being a great pin tech, he just don't know it yet.

    That is all there is to it. Don't over think problems and get yourself in trouble.

    How do you think people became great techs ? They learned. Often by themselves and sometimes with very funny or costly errors.

    Give me the person who fumbles his way through, and I'll show you a person with great potential. Those kind are way easier than the "EXPERTS" from other fields that always do more damage than good.

    You have the potential to learn and gain in confidence as you familiarize yourself with your games.

    Trust me, you'll do fine.

    LTG : )

    #3 10 years ago
    Quoted from Sharon:

    I've met some really amazing (and that's an understatement) people here

    See what I mean? I'd give your post a heart if I could.

    It still bites when I think I've finally solved it only to put it back together and it's only broken in a different way now. And I'd still like to shadow someone doing repairs so I know what in the world I'm looking at. It's like a dying language, less and less people know it, so there are less people to learn it from.

    #4 10 years ago

    I'm trying to learn repairs, but I'm a visual learner which doesn't help me much.

    #5 10 years ago

    Lloyd's right. You're well on your way, and you don't know it yet.

    #6 10 years ago

    I find it easier to read how something works than to have somebody tell me. If you read the countless threads on this sight about the problems that arise and how they are troubleshot and finally repaired, then you are well on your way to learning.

    #7 10 years ago

    Unfortunately, I'm with kwiKimart - more of a visual/tactile learner. Tell me a thousand times and I might get it, but show me how to do it myself once and I've got it.

    Funny, I finally find something I really want to learn and there aren't any teachers! Complete opposite of high school and college....too many teachers forcing me to learn things I had absolutely no interest in.

    Many thanks to Lloyd, bigehrl and o-din for believing that I can learn this

    #8 10 years ago

    I have learned how to repair most things, but I am terrible at adjusting and cleaning. Someday I hope to find someone that can come over and shop and dial in my machines maybe once a year.

    I am not even sure how to dial in a machine, because I really have nothing to compare mine to.

    #9 10 years ago

    It does help to have a some kind of background in electricity and electronics. Classes are readily available in these fields. My background is automotive. Until one year ago when I purchased my first pin, I had never opened one before. But the knowledge I learned repairing auto electronics has made this (shall I say) easy. I have repaired every malfunction myself, but did ask for advice on pinside a couple times that helped greatly. You must have patience and time. And by the way, this has been one of the best years of my life!

    #10 10 years ago
    Quoted from Sharon:

    Why is it so difficult to find someone to teach pin repairs?

    This reminds me of when I got my business license to do pin repairs. The people at city hall had no idea how to classify me. They knew what pinball machines were, but had never had anyone apply for a license to repair them (population: ~1M people). After much discussion, they put me into a category similar to TV repairman.

    Be thankful for the resources you have available. 20 years ago there was no internet. If you want more experience, operate your games. You'll learn in a hurry.

    #11 10 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Because it's a job that doesn't pay well, most techs in the field now empty a cash box and clean a screen.
    So it's harder to find anyone skilled to help you.
    But wait, I'll let you in on a little secret. Did you see this in a post on Pinside ?
    " I can find my way through a schematic, and I can solder, I can take a thing apart and put it together".
    Now there is a man well on his way to being a great pin tech, he just don't know it yet.
    That is all there is to it. Don't over think problems and get yourself in trouble.
    How do you think people became great techs ? They learned. Often by themselves and sometimes with very funny or costly errors.
    Give me the person who fumbles his way through, and I'll show you a person with great potential. Those kind are way easier than the "EXPERTS" from other fields that always do more damage than good.
    You have the potential to learn and gain in confidence as you familiarize yourself with your games.
    Trust me, you'll do fine.
    LTG : )

    I'm Lucky enough to have Lloyd near by to help me. Thanks again for your help on Monday!

    #12 10 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    Give me the person who fumbles his way through, and I'll show you a person with great potential.

    Awesome, after frying my display the other day after plugging a connector back in wrong while the game was on, I am well on my way to becoming a genius!

    #13 10 years ago

    No one said it would be without co$t.

    #14 10 years ago

    buy the repair videos. This old pinball got me started on learning how to fix games back in the day. Good stepping stone. Then I printed out all the repair guides in nice big binder forms for problems I run into.

    #15 10 years ago

    I'd like to offer up a few things I've learned over the years. You didn't specify SS or EM, and I'm an old EM guy, but I think these apply most everything.

    You didn't say if you had a VOM. If you don't, get one and learn how to use it. Even if you have to start with a $7 Horrible Freight meter. Of course, the first time it lies to you, you will want to smash it with a hammer and go get something good.

    Learn the basic math of electricity: I=E/R. It will serve you well. Learn what parts are. What looks like a transistor could be a SCR, or a triac. Assume nothing.

    When you first open a machine, DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING! Do a detailed visual inspection. Look for things broken, burn marks, parts missing, work done by lesser technicians (we like to call those "pecker tracks").

    Start at the power cord. Is it in good shape? Then to the fuse holders, they usually catch hell. Make sure you have good clean power coming out of the transformer (EM) or power supplies (SS) before you go after anything else. Flippers and lights will wait.

    Listen to no one, trust no one. "I already changed that" or "I already fixed that" means nothing. That machine is your baby now. Do your own troubleshooting.

    As with all types of machinery, there are repetitive failures: This machine won't do that so it's this part. This is not a magic gift from the troubleshooting gods, it's from experience. Though the internet will help you there.

    Don't be a parts swapper. Shot gunning is not troubleshooting. Just replacing parts until it works is an expensive way of fixing things, and the sign of a lousy technician. Figure out what's wrong, then fix it. I realize this can be a bit more difficult in the SS world, where computers come into play.

    As LTG said, don't over think things. KISS-Keep it simple, stupid. That light is not lighting up because it's not getting power, not because the planets are out of alignment or alien magnetic fields. Stick with the basics.

    Don't be discouraged by the occasional set back. You will accidently let the magic smoke out now and again. We've all done it, we all still do it. Carry on.

    I hope my ramblings help. The fact that you want to learn gives you a pretty good head start.

    #16 10 years ago

    An "apprenticeship" or looking over someone's experienced shoulder is nice, but really not all that needed.

    I am fortunate to have been professionally trained and worked in electronics all my life. My experience comes from repairing computers to over a dozen years in the cellular phone repair service and now 15+ years with a radio communications technology company.

    The training is the core to all the electronics, and the basics really never change. It's the specifics that do. Even when you know how to repair an electronics item, it's made differently by different manufacturers. The company I work for turns out a number of new products every year, and the new products are always evolving - in addition to repairing gear that is old technology of years past.

    With any branch of electronics, it doesn't matter if it is a pinball, a radio, or a state of the art studio system, these are the things that will give you the base knowledge to be successful:
    - formal electronics training.
    - reading, reading reading and more reading. From books to online and everything in between.
    - conversing with others in the field.

    The desire to know is all you need to start.

    #17 10 years ago

    Wow, thanks for all the advice. I appreciate it very much. I have EMs and SS. Both give me trouble lol.

    I suppose I am lucky to have had a head start in being interested in taking things apart. My dad had me taking stuff apart to repair and resell at six years old. I can't stand not knowing how things work, and try to learn as much as I can about whatever it is. It bothers me to no end when I meet people who use computers every day but have no idea how they work - I could tell them it ran on blue cheese and the wishes of children and it would mean as much. I've been building my own machines since it was an option.

    I have a background in tinkering lol.

    #18 10 years ago
    Quoted from Sharon:

    I could tell them it ran on blue cheese

    Mmmmmm.........blue cheese!

    #19 10 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Mmmmmm.........blue cheese!

    Ahhhh, the secret is revealed!

    #20 10 years ago

    That tinkering gene is a huge advantage for you, so don't sell yourself short.

    I can recommend a few you-tube videos that will be well worth your time for learning soldering, and well worth the hours it takes to watch them all. There's two 'channels' that I would suggest digging through in depth.

    First is "paceworldwide", the company making soldering tools. They put a lot of their older soldering training course videos up for viewing, and all of them are very informative. They were made in the early 80's, but most of the information in them is just as relevant today as it was then, so don't be put off by the age of the videos.

    There is also MrMarcSiegel, who works for pace, and did a more recent series of instructional soldering videos. Again, worth every moment of watching them. He covers a lot more of SMT type stuff, instead of thru-hole, but still teaches quite a lot of technique to learn from.

    -Hans

    #21 10 years ago

    Thanks Hans, I will check those out. Early 80s...glad I am not in any videos from the early 80s.

    #22 10 years ago
    Quoted from browne92:

    Start at the power cord. Is it in good shape? Then to the fuse holders, they usually catch hell. Make sure you have good clean power coming out of the transformer (EM) or power supplies (SS) before you go after anything else. Flippers and lights will wait.

    I can see why you go in this order, sometimes I feel like that kid working on Christine, where there were brand new wiper blades and no windshield. Typically this means I'm waiting for parts or someone who knows more than I do though.

    Quoted from browne92:

    That machine is your baby now. Do your own troubleshooting

    YES!!!! THAT is what I want to do! As soon as I know what my results mean

    Quoted from browne92:

    This is not a magic gift from the troubleshooting gods, it's from experience. Though the internet will help you there.

    And Pinsiders! <3

    Quoted from browne92:

    Don't be a parts swapper. Shot gunning is not troubleshooting. Just replacing parts until it works is an expensive way of fixing things, and the sign of a lousy technician. Figure out what's wrong, then fix it. I realize this can be a bit more difficult in the SS world, where computers come into play.

    I try not to, but...why not? I mean, if the same thing goes out and goes out, then obviously there is a reason other than that thing, but why not replace a thing if you can? Assuming cost doesn't come into play, I mean.

    Quoted from browne92:

    KISS-Keep it simple, stupid.

    Wow, haven't heard that since I showed horses. lol. Great sayings never die.

    Quoted from browne92:

    That light is not lighting up because it's not getting power, not because the planets are out of alignment or alien magnetic fields. Stick with the basics.

    You've worked in IT/Support/Customer Service haven't you. People I have worked with are always baffled by people that know nothing about computers. I try to explain to them that there is a difference between not knowing because you've never had to - people that have never had computer before for instance, and people that just don't want to know - my mother's brother's aunt's boyfriend knows ALL about these, and he said I need a new UBS. *facepalm* I've met both types, and the former will listen to me, the latter will believe that it's because of those pesky alien magnetic fields.

    Quoted from browne92:

    I hope my ramblings help. The fact that you want to learn gives you a pretty good head start.

    Yes, very much, and I hope so!

    #23 10 years ago

    And get to know other pinheads. They are a huge resource. And learn how to repin connectors because a gremlins favorite nesting spot in an old game is in the connectors.

    #24 10 years ago
    Quoted from kwiKimart:

    I'm trying to learn repairs, but I'm a visual learner which doesn't help me much.

    Don't doubt yourself Grasshopper.

    Read...then close your eyes--and then you shall see.

    You'll do just fine--just do it...only way to learn.

    Thereby in the end...as Master (LTG) teaches...you yourself will be a skilled tech to teach others.

    #25 10 years ago

    Just learn the way I did, get a bunch of garbage machines that were all dead and bring them back to life. I have learned so much by doing that. The only problem with long dead machines is the problems compound and multiple things may need to be fixed before they will come back to life and that can lead you down the wrong path if you are not careful. You may not get the much needed feedback that the repair you just did was important and required.

    I find working on a machine that just died to be a very different experience compared to a long dead machine that I am trying to bring back to life.

    The worse the machine, the more I learn. Also the older pins tend to be easier to learn on, just less going on so you can wrap your head around much of the basics in trouble shooting. I learned on the early Bally SS pins, late 1970's to early 1980's. I don't think I could have picked better machines to learn on for SS pins.

    #26 10 years ago
    Quoted from HHaase:

    a few you-tube videos

    Damn. Two hours lost to "recommended for you" videos. Don't you hate when that happens?

    #27 10 years ago

    Hmmmm...the force is strong in this one.

    Quoted from Sharon:

    browne92 said:

    Don't be a parts swapper. Shot gunning is not troubleshooting. Just replacing parts until it works is an expensive way of fixing things, and the sign of a lousy technician. Figure out what's wrong, then fix it. I realize this can be a bit more difficult in the SS world, where computers come into play.
    I try not to, but...why not? I mean, if the same thing goes out and goes out, then obviously there is a reason other than that thing, but why not replace a thing if you can? Assuming cost doesn't come into play, I mean.

    Look at it this way: You get a machine with the player four scoring display not working. So you order up a new display board. No help. Well then the computer must not be sending the score to the display. Order up a new computer. Nothing. It's got to be the power supply. Nope. How much money have you spent to find out that the last jelly head to work on the think yanked a wire out of a connector on the harness?

    Another possibility. You've got a shorted regulator in a power supply. Your 5 volt supply is now putting out 15 volts and cooking everything it touches. How many computer boards you want to fry before taking a meter to it?

    Troubleshoot first, replace parts later.

    Not to say that it's a bad thing to swap out a part if you have a KNOWN GOOD working spare. But don't take anybody's word on that either. (We're back to that "Listen to no one, trust no one" thing). I worked with a guy who's favorite trick was to take the old, bad part, put it back in the box, and put the box back on the shelf with the spares. Ask me how many times I wanted to strangle that SOB.

    Yes, I've done some IT. But I started in medical equipment repair. I learned 'meticulous' by changing the wiring harness in a servo-ventilator. I had the guts of that thing scattered from hell till breakfast. Took my time, very careful. She went on to help others breathe again.

    #28 10 years ago
    Quoted from Sharon:

    Damn. Two hours lost to "recommended for you" videos. Don't you hate when that happens?

    But a lot of good info though, eh?

    -Hans

    #29 10 years ago
    Quoted from browne92:

    I worked with a guy who's favorite trick was to take the old, bad part, put it back in the box, and put the box back on the shelf with the spares.

    Oh yeah, endless frustration there!

    There are certain times it is useful to swap parts as a function of the troubleshooting process. Using known good parts is a definite must.

    #30 10 years ago
    Quoted from wayout440:

    Using known good parts is a definite must.

    When troubleshooting automotive electronics you can spend hours going through flow charts and the final step is "install known good ECM". Yah, I've got one of those handy for every year, make, and model. So you order one, and they send you the bad one that somebody else sent back.

    #31 10 years ago
    Quoted from browne92:

    Troubleshoot first, replace parts later. Not to say that it's a bad thing to swap out a part if you have a KNOWN GOOD working spare.

    Oh, I kinda thought you guys meant never replace a part unless there is no other option, so many people tell me this. I know you want to know WHY something goes bad, and if you just keep throwing new stuff at it, you won't, something might just start working and you are none the wiser. But sometimes....like, if you can get a bumper kit for not much more than just the two pieces of that you need to replace, then *I* would get the kit because I know it's a whole working assembly, and I can part out the damaged one and see what I have worth saving later on. Plus, I've found that I do a lot more damage to bumper parts trying to get an assembly apart than it had originally.

    Quoted from browne92:

    I worked with a guy who's favorite trick was to take the old, bad part, put it back in the box, and put the box back on the shelf with the spares. Ask me how many times I wanted to strangle that SOB.

    Okay...how many times? My husband does that with computer parts, I know just how you feel.

    Quoted from browne92:

    from hell till breakfast.

    OMG I have a new favorite saying!

    Quoted from o-din:

    they send you the bad one that somebody else sent back.

    Hey, I just went through that with Sneers. Told them if they were going to send me a used, broken one, then I wanted the difference in price that an open box item gets and they can also send me replacements of the parts that the last guy broke.

    Quoted from HHaase:

    But a lot of good info though, eh?

    Weellll.....I didn't actually get to the info I was supposed to be looking at then....when I logged in, there were these recommended videos listed in the corner, and so I watched 'just one'. But then there was more recommended to me after that, and BAM! two hours gone. I swear I'm innocent...it was a set up!

    #32 10 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    And learn how to repin connectors

    I can believe that would be a problem, and once I snag my husbands tools for that...

    BUT

    Is there a way, other than putting a meter to each side, to test out if the connector is bad? Or does that not work either? (shush, that feels like a really stupid question already lol)

    #33 10 years ago
    Quoted from Sharon:

    Is there a way, other than putting a meter to each side, to test out if the connector is bad?

    Sure. The wiggle test. With game powered up or in switch test, wiggle wires attached to suspect connector and see what happens. Watch the lights and/ or display while wiggling. My Shrek had a pushed pin on a power connector under the playfield right out of the box and that's how I found it. Power was cutting out mid game, so I started wiggling wires and found it in no time. Reinserted the pin and it was good to go. Don't break out the meter if you don't need to. Your eyes and hands will discover (and fix) far more problems than your meter ever will.

    You won't find the wiggle test in any manual, but it probably should be there.

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