I just use a big magnet to make the ball go wherever I want.

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You can’t death save Jjp games. There is a nub on the apron that prevents it. At least On dialed in.

Really...never noticed.

Careful with that idea.

I had a player try that years ago and scratched hell out of the glass. After a friendly discussion he decided to buy me a new playfield glass and never return.

LTG : )

Good Lord, what have we come to? Never heard of death save, and that's after playing for 50 years. After watching those videos I think you'd have to be an a-hole to do that on location or on any game you do not own.

When I was a teen in the 70's we would shake a game on location before dropping coins to see how tight the tilt was set. Then we'd know how far we could nudge it. That's nothing compared to this crap.

We haven't "come to" this point, it's already been there for decades & decades.

Just watched those two videos and I have to admit that I was impressed with the skill. There's no way I'd do that on location or to someone else's machine though. (I don't think I could do it anyways, lol)

With that said, it's still cheating in my opinion. And if I did manage to do that at home and get a high score...I wouldn't consider it legitimate.

Well I say, "Own your drain, cue up next ball or another coin".

You say that becasue you own 80s SS machines...Not our fault DMD+ era basically eliminated after ball bonus'!

As an operator, it’s my fault if people can do death saves (I’ve set the tilt too loose).

If I set the tilt tight to prevent death saves, then I’ve removed a significant part of the skill of pinball: nudging.

Of course, a ten cent rubber nub below the flippers can prevent death saves entirely...at which point the tilt sensitivity won’t matter.

It would probably make sense to use those in tournaments and then you can eliminate the no death save rule.

Also, “damage to the machine” is pretty weak. Six years of my games on location and I’ve never seen a nudging related injury to any of my pins. Honestly, a slide save or death save on a wood floor is probably less damaging to the game than people who rock the game back and forth to eek out ten extra pop bumper hits. Sometimes I just imagine the leg bolts boring ever widening holes...

On some floors the game glides like ice and you can do it without a hint of violence.

A death save or violent slide can easily cause damage to the head to two machines when The heads collide. I’ve certainly seen this. That’s probably the extent of serious damage.

Plenty of locations have games only
An inch or
Two apart.

That bang back vid is a thing of beauty

I like my early SS games. What the hell is a "DMD"? A "damn modern distraction?"

And I love mine...and they don't get a lot of shaking!

i think this summed it all up.

The move can not only potentially damage machines but can also damage your wrist.

I played at a location once where the jerk next to me kept on death saving his ball and at one point hit the game I was playing pretty hard messing up my ball. I was like “what the hell dude!”

At the end of the day it just left me thinking he was really bad at pinball.

These are not violent if done properly.

The below at 1:24:36 is an example of how easy they can be done especially on a plastic apron game. That amount of movement is less than a lot of people's "nudges". A slap save has more inherent risk of damage than these to but are allowed.

Yes, some yahoo jackass with no grace or someone that needs to move a game 6 inches or kick the legs is on the extreme side and could harm a machine. IMHO if the above is done it's a skill move and that's all it take to complete this type of move.

I've got serious money in my collection. With that said if anyone is at my house and you have the skill to do the save with grace you are welcome to do it on my machines and if you don't tilt I'll give you a hi five/props for it too. This won't hurt your game.

If you want more examples of how they can be done properly without hurting a game just watch Esher L during his streams.

All my machines:
"WE'RE TIRED OF THE DEATH SAVE"
Just kidding. I don't do those.
But I might. Too bad VFW was cancelled.

My TWDLE allows them.

It does and it makes it more difficult than other Stern games but still possible.

I’ve always wondered about that too, like is there a legit reason he couldn’t do that, other than ‘It’s the rules’ ? Probably Something about damaging the pitcher or Being too violent I guess

It' like hockey, you can bash a dudes face in straight up, but if you don't drop your stick immediately you're boned.

Pretty piss poor example if you ask me.

- Hit a pitcher with a baseball bat = Near 100% chance of injury to the player.
- Death Save on a pinball machine - Nearly a Zero % chance of damage to a game.

I understand though that when people can't effectively support their opinion they tend to grab for the most ludicrous examples possible to try and shame people into thinking their belief is the only possible one.

Things done and legal in pinball that present more risk to a pinball machine:
- Holding the flippers with trapped balls - Extra strain on resistors. Can blow parts on a board.
- Slap save - Can not only injure your hand but can bend a lock bar or cause it to not seat properly (especially the old lock bar style)
- Slide save - Can easily hit games adjacent to them. This became so prevalent in the league I play in that a rule had to be made that if you made contact with an adjacent game you were DQed.
- Pushing forward and back (to get that "extra" pop bumper hit) on an early SS game. Anyone ever see a backbox come lose on those? I sure have, and I've repaired several cabs with this kind of damage. Yeah, most is from old age and moving games but hey, I can put lame examples in too, right?
- How about the fad of hitting down on the lock bar to reduce the bounce off a sling shot. Think that's good on the lock bar?
- Anyone play someone else's game that has a powder coated lockbar with their ring on? Maybe a couple of you take them off but the vast majority do not. That can damage the powder coating.

I could go on with a bunch of other lame examples. Facts are that most of these aren't really issues when it comes to abusing and damaging games and only cause an issue in rare situations or in EXTREME situations. Kind of like a death save done by someone that feels they need to kick the leg to accomplish it or move the game 6 inches back and forth.

I know 4 people that route games. I can't think of a single example of a cab being damaged from game play usage outside of the random ass hat that donkey kicks the coin door. Out of the couple hundred games I've seen of theirs on route the only cab that I've seen any type of damage to with separation would be an Aerosmith and I think we all know why that is the case... Those cabs could fall apart in the box they came in.

If you don't want them in your tournament just make a rule against it. If you don't want it in your house then tell people about it but there is no reason to try and shame people into believing what you believe like how most of this thread has gone so far.

It’s not rocket science.

Smacking heads of pinball machines together is a clear and obvious way to damage games by doing death saves. Not to mention it’s a great way to damage pingulps. I have seen it. I have done it. I apologize.

No, the games don’t collapse like a Jenga stack but they get scuffed and scratched.

You guys all live in mansions and have 2 feet between each game? Same with the locations you play at?

These dumb threads exist simply to tickle contrarians’ giggle glands.

Apparently it is rocket science then.

I have maybe 4 inches between my games and pingulps on most of them (picture attached of my current set-up). Never once have I hit the game next to it doing a death save. Maybe because I can do them with some sort of control? If you are hitting games next to you then there are one of two reasons:
- You aren't doing them with any sort of control
-and/or-
- You didn't pay enough attention to the game situation to know what your limits would be and that a death save (or and sort of movement left or right) is not advisable.

If you are moving the back of the game that much when doing a death save you are either doing it wrong or you are going way above what is needed to accomplish the task. If you have to move them that much then I would agree that you shouldn't do them as you can damage a game. Situations matter.... If your games are already basically touching you shouldn't do them, nor should you do any sort of aggressive nudges.

But then again, You also have to pay attention to the game environment. If it's on rubber feet or a sticky type of floor, I'm not going to attempt it in the first place. It's like anything else in life, you have to understand the situation and conditions before you make your judgement on if something can/should be done.

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I have nothing against you and actually agree with you on most topics, but man, it seems like you live to argue.

I'm normally pretty passive, which is also why I stick to mainly tech type of threads but there are some conversations that I just can't sit back and be quite on. This is one of those types of threads because some people want to make you believe that someone that can accomplish a death save is an evil person.

I just want to make sure it is clear. Properly done, these are not going to hurt your game nor do I feel that it is "cheating" as it is a skill that is developed by most of the top players in the community and their is a mechanism built into a game that will tell you if you are doing more than what is allowed to a game to save a ball (the tilt).

Some things just hit a cord with me and this happens to be one of those topics. If the topic was just, "Yes, it would be considered cheating because tournaments generally don't allow them" I probably never would have said a thing but in typical fashion it became a shaming thread with mostly false information being blasted out on why they supported that stance (you'll destroy your games).

I'm curious though, at what point is a difference of opinion with supporting info behind that stance not acceptable or even desired in a public forum where questions are being asked? I don't really consider it arguing.

LMAO

Ok great you convinced me. How about you all have us over for a deathsave competition on your fabulous collection. I'm sure everybody will exercise uptmost finesse and care, as well as exhibiting only the most skilled and subtle death save talents, and your games will emerge after 2 days of death save attempts completely unscathed.

this dumb thread is about "why are deathsaves illegal in tournaments." You really don't understand why? Or are we just on a more existential path discussing the zen of pinball environments?

Hmm, the title of this thread is not about if they are illegal in tournaments. It's "Why is death saving considered cheating?" Yes, the rhetoric has been about how much damage you are doing but that wasn't the question that was asked.

We all know they aren't generally allowed in tournaments which isn't the debate at question.

Also, you obviously missed something in my previous post so I will quote it here for you again:
"I've got serious money in my collection. With that said if anyone is at my house and you have the skill to do the save with grace you are welcome to do it on my machines and if you don't tilt I'll give you a hi five/props for it too. This won't hurt your game."

If you can do one without hitting the game next to it, kicking the legs or tilting out then you are more than welcome to do it at my house. People that do come to my house know that and often do it and I have Zero issue with them completing that skill since they know what they are doing.

The whole point of this is, is it cheating? Of course it is, the ball in the outlanes is basically out of bounds. Same as in football ,basketball or soccer. Once it goes there, it's a turnover. If not, what's the purpose of the out lanes?

Let me pose this question. When a ball rockets down between the flippers and bounces off the apron and back between the flippers - do you consider yourself lucky and keep playing or do you tell yourself that was an honest drain and let the ball go? I would imagine most tournaments consider that a legitimate drain. Asking for a friend.

Cool parlor trick, but it’s cheating IMO.

I would never be proud of a high score if I attained it using either method.

Lucky, keep playing.

Nope. Every tourney I'm aware of just considers that the luck of the bounce. Unless you forcibly shove the game to encourage it, in which case, bangback DQ.

Lord Jesus....NOW this is getting serious!

Agreed, in tournament play, if the ball bounce back out from a center drain or even a fast out lane drain you get the keep playing. Here is where it get's a bit tricky and why I quote you Yancy (from a TD perspective).
- I always thought if it occurred more than once per ball that the second time you were supposed to drain the ball. I don't know where I heard that but I've never had it happen twice in a single ball so never encountered it. Curious from the TD stance if that is still play on or if you have to drain.
- Some games have a post with a rubber on it in the drain. Waterworld is a good example of this. My understanding is you can use that post like you would a center post. Thoughts there?

It’s no different than Lazarus balls. You get unlimited.

However if you budge at all, could get you a DQ.

I treat this as part of the apron. So Lazarus rules apply. No nudging to help it back in.

I take the rubbers off all those through posts. Honestly not sure why they are there. Maybe to slow down balls feeding the trough?

How is your judgement on this?
https://clips.twitch.tv/PlumpStylishMouseVoHiYo

Play on. He moved. The game didn’t. You can tell he wanted to move the game though. We’ve discussed this before on tilt forums. I think the consensus was play on.

Exactly. Great description.

I’m still proud of my death save location GCs. I know all the other goons I dick measure scores with are doing it too so why give them an advantage?

Makes your victory even sweeter and theirs are stuck with a big fat *

I've played for years and never knew what a deathsave or bangback was. Frankly, they look like they take a bit of skill. But do I consider them cheating? Absolutely. The ball is going down the OUTLANE. Game over.

Now moving the game without tilting for a ball that hasn't entered the outlane or SDTM, that's kosher as hell. Because the ball is still in play.

When has a ball entered the outlane? Are wicked shimmy’s allowed?

tell your friend that there was a time (most of it's existence) when pinball was just a vending machine/amusement device in a bar or pizza place that you're trying to play for as long as possible on very little money, while you kill some time. so you can bet your ass i'm going to feel lucky when i don't have to shovel more of my hard earned money into it to continue, and will play the hell out of that rebounded ball! if your friend wants to let it drain and exemplify some sort of moral superiority, they're welcome to do that. but no judgements either way.

God no.

I use these cabinet door-slam protectors from 3M.
I put them on the games and don't need to worry about people shoving them around, and also don't need to keep a big eye on people in a tournament situation.
Simple, easy, removable, and quite effective.
Once in a while a screaming ball SDTM will pop off it and hit the glass, and sometimes a ball hits off it just right and comes back into play when it wouldn't have normally, but so worth it to get rid of the ability to death-save.

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Do all you guys play with the glass on or off ? Why do locations and tournaments insist on keeping the glass on? Its removable for a reason and really helps my game when it’s off.