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(Topic ID: 273521)

Why is deathsaving considered cheating?


By snowy_owl

3 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 114 posts
  • 51 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 40 days ago by 85vett
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Is deathsaving cheating?”

    • Yes, of course! Duh. 99 votes
      65%
    • Nope, it's a real skill of pinball, not cheating. 15 votes
      10%
    • No, but should be illegal in competitive play. 39 votes
      25%

    (153 votes)

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    There are 114 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 3 months ago

    As we all know, deathsaves are considered cheating by many people. They're the only illegal move in competitive pinball. But why? Seems to me that it should be legal. After all, you're probably taking the risk of a tilt if you do it and honestly, it takes skill and practice to pull it off. So why is it considered cheating? Can someone please enlighten me?

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    #2 3 months ago

    It breaks the game. One could play indefinitely with bangbacks and deathsaves.

    It puts too much emphasis on just one skill. No need to really get good at aiming, trapping, ball control, etc when you can just keep knocking the ball back into play.

    Many people can't do bandbacks or deathsaves correctly and risk injury to themselves or damage to the machine.

    #3 3 months ago

    I'd say it's because you're exploiting something that is outside of the playfield (the metal plate beneath the apron) to put the ball back in play. If the game designer wanted a ball save feature there, they would have added one to the right outlane that doesn't require a move that could potentially damage the machine.

    #4 3 months ago

    If you treat my machines like that you will be asked to leave immediately, so making it a formal rule makes it easier to mange than trying to argue using it versus aggressive nudging.

    It can also leave the machines un-level, which is unfair to the other players after you.

    #5 3 months ago

    Tilt thrus are also an issue, as it can cause the next player to tilt as well.

    #6 3 months ago

    I figured I'd get this response. I don't ever deathsave on location, those are other people's games. However, if it's my own game, I still stand by my statement. I don't see why it's cheating.

    #7 3 months ago

    Wth is a deathsave.?

    #9 3 months ago

    Here’s the bangback

    11
    #10 3 months ago

    If you're asking in competition, it's becasue you have to make rules to limit playtime. If you have a way to bring the ball back in play you could play all day. If I was playing on my TZ I could bang-pass from the right out to the left, and then bang back pretty easily back in the day, that would just be recockulus in a tournament.

    Obviously other things mentioned already like damage, DQs, tilt-thrus, moving the machine too far etc etc.

    If you mean in you own home, I don't care. Obviously there's a big group of people on pinside think tilting is cheating so i wouldn't listen to them too much.

    #11 3 months ago

    It's considered cheating because IT IS.

    #12 3 months ago

    I don't feel like you could do this on all games... pretty cool if you can pull it off.

    #13 3 months ago

    Play better.

    #14 3 months ago

    In a competitive situation it’s definitely illegal.At your own house with your own games, then yea it’s totally fair.Your ball should end when it goes down an outlane (unless you have kickback lit).So it’s not fair that you could just put it back in play.Death saving could also hurt a machine as listed from other pinsiders above me.As for your own enjoyment at home nobody’s watching you or actually cares that you preform one.

    #15 3 months ago
    Quoted from Bwilson:

    I don't feel like you could do this on all games... pretty cool if you can pull it off.

    Trying to deathsave on older games is useless, I've seen people try.

    #16 3 months ago
    Quoted from snowy_owl:

    I figured I'd get this response. I don't ever deathsave on location, those are other people's games. However, if it's my own game, I still stand by my statement. I don't see why it's cheating.

    Well, if it’s your own game, do as you please: Take the glass off, set it to 10 balls, place rubber bands blocking the outlanes etc.

    In all seriousness death saves are a skill, but it does not belong in competitive pinball.

    Some things don’t need detailed rationalizations, they just fall into the category of you just know it’s wrong when you see it.

    #17 3 months ago
    Quoted from snowy_owl:

    They're the only illegal move in competitive pinball

    Not true. Competitions can allow them if they want. The big time ones won’t let you though. It’s just like most other tournament rules. If you allow them, the game takes longer. Games taking too long is a top priority for most tournament organizers. Keep things on time.

    25
    #18 3 months ago

    I get on players in my business if they try it. I've only ever seen one that had the skill and finesse to not hurt the game. Most WHACK it as hard as they can and sooner or later they will break something. Like the clock in my TZ.

    I won't put up with it.

    LTG : )

    #19 3 months ago

    It’s just a bad habit to get into imo. You do it all the time on your games fine, but it increases the risk that you inadvertently do it on others’ machines and piss them off. Or do it in a comp and get DQed.

    One of the reasons why I’ve never practiced/learned them.

    #20 3 months ago
    Quoted from snowy_owl:

    As we all know, deathsaves are considered cheating by many people. They're the only illegal move in competitive pinball. But why? Seems to me that it should be legal. After all, you're probably taking the risk of a tilt if you do it and honestly, it takes skill and practice to pull it off. So why is it considered cheating? Can someone please enlighten me?

    On a modern “tilt warning” machine with even a medium tilt, there’s almost no risk at all. There’s games and floors where I would be 100 percent with only 1 or 2 warnings. Potential for 3 extra balls a game.

    It’s not considered “cheating,” it’s simply against the rules. All sports have rules. For various reasons (potential damage to machines, distracting other players, potential injury, disadvantage for smaller, weaker, or injured players, increased risk of tilt thru) it doesn’t make sense to allow it in competition.

    14
    #21 3 months ago
    Quoted from snowy_owl:

    I figured I'd get this response. I don't ever deathsave on location, those are other people's games. However, if it's my own game, I still stand by my statement. I don't see why it's cheating.

    Yeah I figured how this would go. Had all the makings of a thread where someone asks a question, gets about a dozen convincing, logical reasons WHY that answers their question, and just dismisses them all arbitrarily without even explaining why.

    How about you explain to us why you would even ask this question when there isn’t a single answer on earth that would get you to reconsider your dumb opinion? Slow work day? Bored?

    You’ve been given a ton of sound, logical answers to what’s kind of a stupid question, and you refuse to consider them and still “stand by your statement.”

    What’s the point? Are you really that obtuse, Shawshank Owl?

    10
    #22 3 months ago

    Death saving on other peoples' pins is a dick move

    #23 3 months ago
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    #24 3 months ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    I get on players in my business if they try it. I've only ever seen one that had the skill and finesse to not hurt the game. Most WHACK it as hard as they can and sooner or later they will break something. Like the clock in my TZ.
    I won't put up with it.
    LTG : )

    I’m a leg-kicker. Give the front right light a little jab kick right at the foot of the leg, and then pull it back with my right hand. On a death save friendly floor and game works every time.

    I used to be a hip / thigh pusher but too many bruises / broken phone screens changed that.

    #25 3 months ago

    What kind of a dick head would do this to anyone's game? They would be kicked out of my house

    11
    #26 3 months ago
    Quoted from Hayfarmer:

    What kind of a dick head would do this to anyone's game? They would be kicked out of my house

    Because for the first 70 years off pinball they were commercial machines made for locations. You probably wouldn't violently shake your own vending machine to get the fucking Funyuns out either, but I would.

    #27 3 months ago

    I didn't even know this was a thing, never saw it before. Personally I'd consider it cheating on my own machines and if I did it myself I'd end up with the cabinet heads banging into each other. Seems like a low-class move but I can see why people playing in a location might do it if they can get away with it without tilting, and can see why tournaments wouldn't permit it. If I'd bet somebody 50 cents on a game and they did that and beat me I wouldn't pay 'em. To me, once the ball goes out the side drain like that, you lost the ball. Makes me think of playing pool by yourself and shoving the pool table to prevent scratching the 8 ball, even though yeah, you ain't supposed to bang or whack the side of pool table, but in pinball it is okay... to a point. I must admit that the 'bangback' doesn't seem as bad for the machine though, just maybe for my wrist if I was ever to try it.

    10
    #28 3 months ago
    Quoted from frenchmarky:

    If I'd bet somebody 50 cents on a game and they did that and beat me I wouldn't pay 'em.

    who bets with change?!? i think single dollars are the lowest reasonable wagering denomination in 2020.

    #29 3 months ago
    Quoted from bigehrl:

    who bets with change?!? i think single dollars are the lowest reasonable wagering denomination in 2020.

    'Cause I'm getting old and feeble and a standard-size Hershey bar seems like it should still only cost a quarter. Geez now it's considered a deal if they're two for three bucks!

    #30 3 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    You probably wouldn't violently shake your own vending machine to get the fucking Funyuns out either, but I would.

    Funyuns no. Ho Hos or Ding Dongs sure.
    Deathsave or bangback - nope. Dick move.

    #31 3 months ago

    This thread reminds me of a Meme Keefer posted on another forum that made me chuckle. Sad part is it's true. If the community see's someone barely move the game to complete a death save they are pitchforked but if they slide the game from one zip code to another (EX the Josh Sharpe move on Congo IN A TOURNAMENT) and everyone says how cool it was and celebrates.

    A properly done Deathsave doesn't require massive movement, kicking a leg or anything of the sort. In a lot of instances it takes more force to do some of these massive slide saves that I see ALL THE TIME in tournaments even by some of those in this thread that condone a deathsave. That's the only part I don't get.

    For me it depends on whom owns the game and what their feelings are about deathsaves. If they aren't cool with them then I wont do one as it's about respect of others opinions and equipment.

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    #32 3 months ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    If the community see's someone barely move the game to complete a death save they are pitchforked but if they slide the game from one zip code to another (EX the Josh Sharpe move on Congo IN A TOURNAMENT) and everyone says how cool it was and celebrates.

    From a potential game damage standpoint, I agree, hypocritical. From a competitive play standpoint, I recognize the separation of in-play saves vs. post-drain saves. One's fine, one isn't, gotta draw the line somewhere.

    There's a fix for slides saves. Ask anyone who played in Illinois state finals at my house how many they got away with.

    #33 3 months ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    There's a fix for slides saves. Ask anyone who played in Illinois state finals at my house how many they got away with.

    Rubber feet?

    #34 3 months ago

    One tilt warning and/or reduced debounce on modern Sterns, tight tilts on older games that have little (WPC) or no debounce. Slide 'em all you want, but you'll pay.

    #35 3 months ago

    Yeah I’m surprised more people don’t mess with the debounce settings. I was so pumped when that was added.

    #36 3 months ago
    Quoted from bigehrl:

    who bets with change?!? i think single dollars are the lowest reasonable wagering denomination in 2020.

    Ain’t bet .50 since I was 5

    #37 3 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Because for the first 70 years off pinball they were commercial machines made for locations. You probably wouldn't violently shake your own vending machine to get the fucking Funyuns out either, but I would.

    Funyuns, hell no. Maybe doritos tho

    #38 3 months ago

    A simpler way to do it at home is by simply removing the playfield glass. Now is that cheating!

    #39 3 months ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    There's a fix for slides saves. Ask anyone who played in Illinois state finals at my house how many they got away with.

    I bet that same "fix" for those will "fix" death saves too

    Rubber feet, tight tilt and/or reduced debounce stops all those dead in their tracks. They can also prevent skillful nudging too when taken to far so it's a tightrope to walk sometimes.

    #40 3 months ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    They can also prevent skillful nudging too when taken to far so it's a tightrope to walk sometimes.

    Yeah, I probably went too far with game difficulty at state finals. It was my compromise with Josh Sharpe. He wanted to start finals at the crack of dawn because his wife's surprise birthday party got moved to the same evening. I bailed out his horrible planning by making the machines evil.

    #41 3 months ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Ain’t bet .50 since I was 5

    think i've owed you $.50 for about 42 years now.

    #42 3 months ago
    Quoted from snowy_owl:

    As we all know, deathsaves are considered cheating by many people. They're the only illegal move in competitive pinball. But why? Seems to me that it should be legal. After all, you're probably taking the risk of a tilt if you do it and honestly, it takes skill and practice to pull it off. So why is it considered cheating? Can someone please enlighten me?

    Let me come and play your games and I can show you why deathsaves should not be allowed. After I show you I am sure you will change your mind too.

    #43 3 months ago
    Quoted from Hayfarmer:

    Funyuns, hell no. Maybe doritos tho

    Doritos can also be used as kindling to start a fire. That's how I would use that fake food..

    #44 3 months ago

    These moves can damage games. Several years ago, I replaced a set of legs on Iron Man. According to the bartender, she caught some guy sliding the game back and forth trying to save the ball. She described what she saw and it sounded like a death save to me. He had pulled the game about six inches away from the wall so he could really move it around. There was an expansion joint with a lip on it in the floor and this guy was shoving the game back and forth over the expansion joint, ended up putting a slight bend in a couple of legs. At the time, I didn't realize that was even possible. Here is the kicker, I had the game set to five balls with a generous tilt! This guy must have been a lousy player as he was nowhere to be found on a two week old high score table that still had some default scores. Bar owner told the staff if that bastard ever comes back to let him know so he can toss him out.

    Another time there was a guy doing bangbacks on my EBD at Chicago Expo many years ago. He broke the weld on one of the tabs of the lockdown bar. Eight Ball Deluxe can be a real bitch sometimes, but c'mon.

    #45 3 months ago
    Quoted from pinballaddicted:

    Let me come and play your games and I can show you why deathsaves should not be allowed. After I show you I am sure you will change your mind too.

    Turtle Power!!

    #46 3 months ago

    I know that manufacturers hate changing anything, but they could redesign the apron to make these moves impossible.

    #47 3 months ago
    Quoted from BrianBannon:

    These moves can damage games. Several years ago, I replaced a set of legs on Iron Man. According to the bartender, she caught some guy sliding the game back and forth trying to save the ball. She described what she saw and it sounded like a death save to me. He had pulled the game about six inches away from the wall so he could really move it around. There was an expansion joint with a lip on it in the floor and this guy was shoving the game back and forth over the expansion joint, ended up putting a slight bend in a couple of legs. At the time, I didn't realize that was even possible. Here is the kicker, I had the game set to five balls with a generous tilt! This guy must have been a lousy player as he was nowhere to be found on a two week old high score table that still had some default scores. Bar owner told the staff if that bastard ever comes back to let him know so he can toss him out.
    Another time there was a guy doing bangbacks on my EBD at Chicago Expo many years ago. He broke the weld on one of the tabs of the lockdown bar. Eight Ball Deluxe can be a real bitch sometimes, but c'mon.

    Aw man that sucks.This is also the reason you should never death save on anyone’s machines.If I had anyone even try to perform a death save on my machines, they would be kicked out immediately.

    #48 3 months ago
    Quoted from Pinbaltz:

    I know that manufacturers hate changing anything, but they could redesign the apron to make these moves impossible.

    They could and have; Bif Bars, pointy plungers etc. They just don;t care, and there's no real reason they should.
    There is a tilt mech....that should take care of most of it.

    #49 3 months ago

    Centaur has those gates on the inlane dividers and was designed so that a proper nudge will save the ball before it rolls to the drain. That's an example of working within the game. Not cheating. Hitting the machine to save the ball right before it hits the drain is something else to me, even setting aside the possibility of damaging stuff.

    At home, on your game, do whatever. Play with the glass off and just pick it out of the outlane and set it back in the shooter lane. I'd just as soon working on legit nudging skills to prevent such drains when I'm not playing at homr.

    #50 3 months ago

    Competitive games have rules. Like How come in pro baseball the batter can’t bash in the skull of the pitcher?

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