In So Cal from the early 70s on thru the early SS era Bally was king. With every arcade I can think of showcasing Bally's latest and greatest machines with their fast game play and cooler than the rest artwork. They were also the first solid states I remember playing. Each time a new Bally dropped it always drew a crowd.
Williams were second and the Gottliebs around here were mostly antiques until I came across Joker Poker. Region plays a big part in what you were exposed to and remember.
1980's - Pinball's Booming
1990's - Pinball's Crashing
Never underestimate the power of a decade.
I'm sure if you had told pinheads in the 80's that in 10 years Stern would be the last struggling manufacturor and pinball would be in a coma they would have laughed at you...
But one thing is certain... that laugher died.
This is in interesting thread. As a person in my 30s who certainly paid too much for a Cirqus Voltaire, I have a few thoughts.
Like the g0nz0 I was never huge into pinball. Arcades were everything to me. However, as I've gotten older, pinball has become more and more of a major interest of mine. Will that persist? Who knows. But it is building into a nice hobby on top of the arcades I own.
I think the comment about EM prices being low because the 90s games are generationally appropriate makes sense. However, I find myself getting more interested in EMs now that I own this 90s machine. Furthermore, I played CV for the first time only three months ago.
As for the price, I did research, and I knew it was too high, but I didn't want to pass up what appeared to be a good thing. The simple fact that these games aren't being built anymore causes some level of panic when you feel like "that is the one." As a result of this "scarcity" I was willing to pay a little more to ensure that I could get one.
Lastly I watch my four year old play this game, and she absolutely loves it. I think that the cyclical nature of products and trends directly correlates to the parents raising the next generation of kids. There is a good chance my son and daughter may actually like the feeling of an old stand up arcade or pinball machine. It could potentially be nostalgic for a whole new generation.
Obviously you can't know the future, but this is a fascinating thing to watch. Hopefully I didn't annoy anyone with my opinions 
.
Quoted from g0nz0:1980's - Pinball's Booming
1990's - Pinball's Crashing
Never underestimate the power of a decade.
I'm sure if you had told pinheads in the 80's that in 10 years Stern would be the last struggling manufacturor and pinball would be in a coma they would have laughed at you...
But one thing is certain... that laugher died.
As has been noted, there was a fundamental difference between the late 1990's and today. Home use buyers. They make up >50% of the market now. So we'd need to see a complete collapse of pinball in the wild AND in homes for a catastrophic price drop.
Could happen for sure, but the buyers are much more diversified than they were back then.
I'd also note that the drop in prices in the late 90's lead to the home market that we see today.
Either way, I hope prices collapse. More pins for me.
Quoted from g0nz0:1980's - Pinball's Booming
1990's - Pinball's Crashing
Technically pinball boomed more in the 90's than the 80's - I mean, TAF came out in 1991.
I don't see prices plummeting. When people have to pay 200-300 for replacement "node" boards and other surface mount stuff I see older machines with easily repairable boards going up. One lightning strike or a chain reaction failure could cost thousands.
Quoted from Aniraf:This is in interesting thread. As a person in my 30s who certainly paid too much for a Cirqus Voltaire, I have a few thoughts.
It was unfortunate, you do not have a chance to purchase Cirqus Voltaire during the WMS closeout in 1998.
You might not want to know what it cost was to those that watched, waited, and decided to buy after the end of the production run.
It would put an interesting bomb onto this thread, and decidedly shock new "unbelievers" and make their heads spin in circles like the Exorcist.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:It was unfortunate, you do not have a chance to purchase Cirqus Voltaire during the WMS closeout.
You might not want to know what it cost was to those that watched, waited, and decided to buy after the end of the production run.
It would put an interesting spin on this thread, and decidedly shock "unbelievers".
I'd like to know 
Quoted from Aniraf:This is in interesting thread. As a person in my 30s who certainly paid too much for a Cirqus Voltaire, I have a few thoughts.
Like the g0nz0 I was never huge into pinball. Arcades were everything to me. However, as I've gotten older, pinball has become more and more of a major interest of mine. Will that persist? Who knows. But it is building into a nice hobby on top of the arcades I own.
I think the comment about EM prices being low because the 90s games are generationally appropriate makes sense. However, I find myself getting more interested in EMs now that I own this 90s machine. Furthermore, I played CV for the first time only three months ago.
As for the price, I did research, and I knew it was too high, but I didn't want to pass up what appeared to be a good thing. The simple fact that these games aren't being built anymore causes some level of panic when you feel like "that is the one." As a result of this "scarcity" I was willing to pay a little more to ensure that I could get one.
Lastly I watch my four year old play this game, and she absolutely loves it. I think that the cyclical nature of products and trends directly correlates to the parents raising the next generation of kids. There is a good chance my son and daughter may actually like the feeling of an old stand up arcade or pinball machine. It could potentially be nostalgic for a whole new generation.
Obviously you can't know the future, but this is a fascinating thing to watch. Hopefully I didn't annoy anyone with my opinions
I'm 33, so we can relate. I remember playing TAF, Slugfest, and WW at Chucky Cheese and the local bowling alley when I was a pre-teen. I didn't touch pinball until 2007, when I bought my first game. I've overpaid on a few pins (and underpaid on many others) but even if the prices go to half of what I paid for I don't give a F. I bought what I wanted because it was exactly what I wanted. It's fun, safe entertainment that the family has enjoyed and will enjoy until we all collectively tire of it
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:It was unfortunate, you do not have a chance to purchase Cirqus Voltaire during the WMS closeout in 1998.
You might not want to know what it cost was to those that watched, waited, and decided to buy after the end of the production run.
It would put an interesting spin on this thread, and decidedly shock new "unbelievers".
20 years ago 
The party never ends right ?
Good luck with that
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:It was unfortunate, you do not have a chance to purchase Cirqus Voltaire during the WMS closeout in 1998.
You might not want to know what it cost was to those that watched, waited, and decided to buy after the end of the production run.
It would put an interesting spin on this thread, and decidedly shock new "unbelievers".
!300 bucks at the Expo that year. NIB. And I did not buy one.
Quoted from smognote:tell the neo geo collectors that. ever see the prices of some of those cartridges!!! how could this be its retro
I think a lot of that era of collecting is at it's peak, currently. I don't think the NES rarities market has much more room to grow as many of the big collectors are retiring and/or dying.
The peak collectors of any amusement device will be the people that grew up with them and marveled over them as a child. Atari 2600 collecting isn't a big thing anymore. NES is (nearing) a peak. I think Neo Geo will go strong for another 10-15 years and diminish somewhat as the people with the passion for it, aka those that grew up with it, start selling.
See also: Woodrail pinballs, Elvis memorabilia, jukeboxes, 78 RPM vinyl, etc.
If kids today can connect to pinball, it will have a chance. If not, it will fade like everything else.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:chance to purchase Cirqus Voltaire
I passed on a routed example in 2004 for $1500...bought a NGG instead for the same money...which was still high back then.
Quoted from DennisDodel:!300 bucks at the Expo that year. NIB. And I did not buy one.
Ouch! Granted I started college in 1998 and pinball wasn't top of mind.
Quoted from DennisDodel:!300 bucks at the Expo that year. NIB. And I did not buy one.
Worse, a few years ago I bought a huo CV with papers showing closeout pricing paid. The game was costing me six times that amount, and it wasn't even new in box anymore (but it looked new).
Prices are based on supply and demand. And the overall economy. Look at what car prices have done, so many auctions and prices still climb. Note both buyers and sellers are paying 10% commission. Some times the auction house cuts the commission to get car sold. EM prices have gone up the least except in a few cases. EM project games once valued at $50 now going for over $200.
Plummet, NO, prices may stall or drop 5-10%. So many games going into private collections and not coming out.
BLUF: Knowledge for education in this provided 2017 market pricing chart excerpt
Prices are not based on supply and demand exclusively to the aspects of pinball.
That is an extreme oversimplification.
However, prices are heavily influenced by the state of the economy.
The market pricing for titles does fluctuate for specific reasons, up and down.
Those that have not seen the changes, have not been around long enough to watch the market, especially starting from 1990.
The amounts are not always inconsequential either, sometimes several thousand dollars.
Some market periods are very distinct for a reason, if a person is familiar with pinball history.
This chart also shows the current rises due to market inflation and manufacturer MSRP prices, particularly in the past 5 years.
This value is a "median average", not an absolute, or specific to an individual title.
Read the description, it is important.
The chart is heavily influenced by current modern manufacturers.
Also, this is the first year JJP was included in market data based on viable statistics.
The market is presently healthy, however the industry is questionable.
These two areas are not comparable, and should not be interchanged in discussion, but they are interrelated.
Keep flipping.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Prices are not based on supply and demand exclusively to the aspects of pinball.
That is an extreme oversimplification.
However, prices are heavily influenced by the state of the economy.
The market pricing for titles does fluctuate for specific reasons, up and down.
Those that have not seen the changes, have not been around long enough to watch the market, especially starting from 1990.
The amounts are not always inconsequential either, sometimes several thousand dollars.
Some market periods are very distinct for a reason, if a person is familiar with pinball history.
This chart also shows the current rises due to market inflation and manufacturer MSRP prices, particularly in the past 5 years.
This value is a "median average", not an absolute, or specific to an individual title.
Read the description, it is important.
The chart is heavily influenced by current modern manufacturers.
Also, this is the first year JJP was included in market data based on viable statistics.
The market is presently healthy, however the industry is questionable.
These two areas are not comparable, and should not be interchanged in discussion, but they are interrelated.
Keep flipping.
Supply and demand is the ONLY thing that dictates free market prices. Full stop.
Now, what creates a glut./scarcity in supply or an increase/decrease in demand is up for debate.
Additionally, people keep forgetting that >50% of pins are now sold for home use only.
None of this means prices couldn't tank but comparing it to the 90's is a meaningless exercise.
Quoted from g0nz0:1980's - Pinball's Booming
1990's - Pinball's Crashing
Never underestimate the power of a decade.
I'm sure if you had told pinheads in the 80's that in 10 years Stern would be the last struggling manufacturor and pinball would be in a coma they would have laughed at you...
But one thing is certain... that laugher died.
The decades are reversed in totality of sales regarding the various periods of success in the pinball industry.
Telling owners that Stern would be the last surviving manufacturer they certainly would have laughed.
Why?
They decided to quit.
They did not "soldier on".
People have given so much kudos credit to this company that made bad financial and production decisions, but failed to recognize those that bought their games when they were struggling. People are simply unaware, or don't care.
Stern stopped making games in 1984, made no major game hits since 1981 (Lightning), and were not around in the late 1980s in preparation of the part of the resurgence in the 1990s. Iron Maiden has become a cult game now, but was marginally successful title (1982).
Their sales contributions overall were poor in comparison to every other manufacturer, and titles few after 1980 with Flight 2000 (AUG 1980) being the last highly successful game.
However, their build quality was always inferior to Bally, Williams, or Gottlieb games, often copying complete board sets and technology directly from Bally themselves in a period of less legalities.
Unfortunately, their quality probably always will be less now, if a person understands what happened at Stern in 2007, and certainly since 2011 as the changes were blatant in terms of quality.
Stern as a company continued to operate indirectly, however, through conglomeration of joining forces with other companies through other resources such as Data East and Sega in the late 80s and into the 90s to ride the last "wave", but that came much later after their short hiatus.
The only thing that Stern is presently laughing about is the lack of knowledge as they increase prices by reducing features and build quality to maximize temporary profits until the end of the latest interest period. They know it will not last forever, and are attempting to capitalize on this same absence of understanding.
People that state that a comparison to the 1990s are market uneducated both from the standpoint of manufacturers and pricing. Presently, the pinball industry is moving into a comparative period that occurred in 1993-1994. Many manufacturers, many choices, failing manufacturers, or those that choose to quit, and over reaching prices. Learn from the past, or repeat the mistakes. So many repeated mistakes, and subsequent denial. See the above comment for an example of this ignorance.
Stern only "survived" out of a private choice to LOSE MONEY for the first 4 years after they former stuck out on their own again from 1999-2003. TSPP was one of the saving grace titles. They were not "saviors of pinball", that marketing makes people want you to believe. They regurgitated titles for reruns just like they are doing today for some of the same reasons. They nearly imploded after continued losses all the way up to 2009, and changes were FORCED upon Gary Stern and company by the investor council which otherwise would have shut the company down permanently.
The "real" present joke is on new owners, not Stern.
Something people should consider in all those "deep thoughts" of understanding pinball history, and what really happened.
I doubt this explanation will be shared in a pinball book.
Im 43, as a kid I was all about videogames, barely played pinball. Now Im in the hobby for 3 years and love it. New generations are heavily into videogaming too. But I think that the pattern is young generation starting to enjoy "phisical" entrtainment (as opposite to virtual) once they get older (above 20/30). So I see new bood coming into the hobby in the future, I have no doubt. Pinball is fun, like ping pong, bowling, etc..
At the same time I am afraid now new machines are flooding the market. Do you know how many machines do Stern produce per year? I think that new blood will always enter the hobby, but at the same time its attractive just for a very small fraction of young people, its a niche with specific interets and skills.
So now, lots of old machines have been restored to good levels, plus all the new ones. Maybe too many for the future market?
I'm 45 and have had almost every game system they've made but my aunt and uncle owned a bar and that exposure to pinball made a lasting impression.
I mean it's in you to a point for sure.. ingrained in our DNA lol but those young yrs (I'm talking single digits) made a lasting impression. I watched the star castle, asteroids, space invaders and BOOM pacman come in and get played while the pin sat next to them empty but it was there and in the long run trumps the arcades because of the actualness of it... it's not a screen its real and that's what i think will keep people coming around in cycles in the future. There will always be pin people
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:The decades are reversed in totality of sales regarding the various periods of success in the pinball industry.
Telling owners that Stern would be the last surviving manufacturer they certainly would have laughed.
Why?
They decided to quit.
They did not "soldier on".
People have given so much kudos credit to this company that made bad financial and production decisions, but failed to recognize those that bought their games when they were struggling. People are simply unaware, or don't care.
Stern stopped making games in 1984, made no major game hits since 1981 (Lightning), and were not around in the late 1980s in preparation of the part of the resurgence in the 1990s. Iron Maiden has become a cult game now, but was marginally successful title (1982).
Their sales contributions overall were poor in comparison to every other manufacturer, and titles few after 1980 with Flight 2000 (AUG 1980) being the last highly successful game.
However, their build quality was always inferior to Bally, Williams, or Gottlieb games, often copying complete board sets and technology directly from Bally themselves in a period of less legalities.
Unfortunately, their quality probably always will be less now, if a person understands what happened at Stern in 2007, and certainly since 2011 as the changes were blatant in terms of quality.
Stern as a company continued to operate indirectly, however, through conglomeration of joining forces with other companies through other resources such as Data East and Sega in the late 80s and into the 90s to ride the last "wave", but that came much later after their short hiatus.
The only thing that Stern is presently laughing about is the lack of knowledge as they increase prices by reducing features and build quality to maximize temporary profits until the end of the latest interest period. They know it will not last forever, and are attempting to capitalize on this same absence of understanding.
People that state that a comparison to the 1990s are market uneducated both from the standpoint of manufacturers and pricing. Presently, the pinball industry is moving into a comparative period that occurred in 1993-1994. Many manufacturers, many choices, failing manufacturers, or those that choose to quit, and over reaching prices. Learn from the past, or repeat the mistakes. So many repeated mistakes, and subsequent denial. See the above comment for an example of this ignorance.
Stern only "survived" out of a private choice to LOSE MONEY for the first 4 years after they former stuck out on their own again from 1999-2003. TSPP was one of the saving grace titles. They were not "saviors of pinball", that marketing makes people want you to believe. They regurgitated titles for reruns just like they are doing today for some of the same reasons. They nearly imploded after continued losses all the way up to 2009, and changes were FORCED upon Gary Stern and company by the investor council which otherwise would have shut the company down permanently.
The "real" present joke is on new owners, not Stern.
Something people should consider in all those "deep thoughts" of understanding pinball history, and what really happened.
I doubt this explanation will be shared in a pinball book.
Feel free to point out any inaccuracies in the comment I made.
While we wait for that, it is interesting to point out that when listing out a comparison between the 90's and today you failed to mention the most important variable...The purchasing audience/consumer. [see the two comments above this one to illustrate the point]
Didn't Stern own or have a stake in Nutting Associates, which is how they snaked the Bally boardset?
Quoted from taylor34:Seems like we may have finally reached a tipping point based upon the listings I've seen lately...
Are we referencing eBay or on Pinside lately?
We must be at a tipping point, some folks are drinking and listing.
Quoted from taylor34:Seems like we may have finally reached a tipping point based upon the listings I've seen lately...
Yeah, post some links. I hate it when people make posts like this and don't give examples. The games listed near me that I wanted to buy in the last few months have sold in 10 minutes.
Quoted from taylor34:Seems like we may have finally reached a tipping point based upon the listings I've seen lately...
Like? Pinside has always been high on prices imo . Market is still good....look at all the pins jjp and cgc are selling for 8k+. Also the market for nice condition/restored b/w pins is still really good also.....
Quoted from taylor34:Seems like we may have finally reached a tipping point based upon the listings I've seen lately...
Based on my current experience selling games, your right. It's here. Many of these were $1000 + higher just 6 months ago. Great time to buy, bad time to sell.
GOT Premium $5600 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/55566
GB LE $ 6950 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/55390
Kiss Premium $ 5495 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/54740
LUCI Refinery $7500 https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-acdc-premiumle-luci-edition#post-4029853
AC/DC LTBR $8495 https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-acdc-ltbr-143-huo#post-4042370
Rob Zombie $4900 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/54984
The Hobit $ 6000 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/54109
My healthcare insurance costs have been going up 30% year over year. Pretty soon I won't have anby more money for utilities let alone pinball!
Quoted from galaxian:My healthcare insurance costs have been going up 30% year over year. Pretty soon I won't have anby more money for utilities let alone pinball!
That sucks, try to sell a couple of nice machines right no on top of it. Ouch.
There is a lot more supply of higher end games right now so the secondary market from about $6k to $9k is weaker...not too many people can buy multiple $8k games so they have to sell games to get new ones and it seems more people want the nib games.
Lower priced games, those below $4-$5k seem firmer, but there are examples of games sitting like a 4600 SM with $800 in good mods and a nice 4600 potc. Both are great games, imo and at decent prices. People asking $8k for tz just aren't going to find a long list of buyers. If you are a buyer, there are deals around, but I wonder if some of those stern le and premiums have more room to fall.
Quoted from sparechange1974:Based on my current experience selling games, your right. It's here. Many of these were $1000 + higher just 6 months ago. Great time to buy, bad time to sell.
GOT Premium $5600 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/55566
GB LE $ 6950 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/55390
Kiss Premium $ 5495 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/54740
LUCI Refinery $7500 https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-acdc-premiumle-luci-edition#post-4029853
AC/DC LTBR $8495 https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-acdc-ltbr-143-huo#post-4042370
Rob Zombie $4900 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/ad/54984
The Hobit $ 6000 https://pinside.com/pinball/market/classifieds/archive/54109
The only one I agree with is that the GOT prem. is a great deal... possibly RZ but ugh, I dislike that one enough to still not buy it.
The others look about right to me and have been at those prices for a while.
I mean, the time of buying NIB games and selling it down the road for more $ when the game is no longer available ended when the prices got so high that the resale value is so much less. That has little to do with a lot of people in this hobby. The majority of people in my circle of pinball friends have a new Stern here and there but 70% of all titles among all my friend's machines are still older than the year 1999.
Those 80's and 90's games seem to be getting closer and closer to the price where I saw restored examples of them sell for the same price 5-6 years ago. Crazy.
If they've reached a point where they start going back down, I'm ready to buy the 2 or 3 that always eluded me. If not, I don't really care if prices on the classics go up or stay the same because I've obtained just about every pin I ever wanted and it was because those titles are the ones I like to play, not because they will gain or lose value in the pinball market.
The majority of my friends and other I compete with feel the same and don't really care what a game is "worth" to resell. It's much more important that the game is reliable and fun at that moment that we are playing it.
Quoted from snyper2099:Yeah, post some links. I hate it when people make posts like this and don't give examples. The games listed near me that I wanted to buy in the last few months have sold in 10 minutes.
Like the guy mentioned above, it appears like new games from all manufacturers except Chicago gaming are starting to really have a hard time maintaining value. It doesn't appear like games below $4k are affected yet, but if the new games fall much farther it's going to start putting pressure on that line. On top of that, it doesn't look like Star Wars sold very well at all to home owners, like barely more than Aerosmith, and 40% lower than like Game of Thrones. The question is where does it stop.
Im seeing top end falling down 10-15%, but bottom end coming up same. That’s locally speaking. Not a prediction, but what I’m seeing on cl around here. Is it the same around the country? Saw some nice deals on solid older titles in Chicago, in the 2-3k price range. If only I had money....
Quoted from taylor34:Like the guy mentioned above, it appears like new games from all manufacturers except Chicago gaming are starting to really have a hard time maintaining value. It doesn't appear like games below $4k are affected yet, but if the new games fall much farther it's going to start putting pressure on that line. On top of that, it doesn't look like Star Wars sold very well at all to home owners, like barely more than Aerosmith, and 40% lower than like Game of Thrones. The question is where does it stop.
It stops around 2010 currently.
Most games before that are still going up
Quoted from taylor34:Seems like we may have finally reached a tipping point based upon the listings I've seen lately...
Agreed! I wouldn't say plummet but a tipping point. And last year was that point. Or should I say I seen a lot of prices jump in the last year only to come down recently.
As most have already said it's more with higher dollar pins $5000 and up compared to last year. The higher the price the harder the hit. Many higher dollar games just setting that would have sold in days if not hours last year. How many pins that do sell on here are marked price kept private. Wonder why?
Quoted from Vino:Are we referencing eBay or on Pinside lately?
We must be at a tipping point, some folks are drinking and listing.
You’re thinking of the tippling point, which is much more fun than the tipping point.
Quoted from Multiballmaniac1:2018 will be bad for the economy. It’s just a matter of what quarter.
Care to explain?
Quoted from Pinballlew:Care to explain?
Prices are going up a quarter at his local arcade next year and he’s taking it badly.
Quoted from ForceFlow:What supporting evidence do you have? I know several people in their teens, 20s, and 30s who own games. Granted, not all of them are big spenders, but hobbyists can be any age.
Pinball is not just an "old guy" thing. Walk into any show these days and there is a fairly good cross section of the population flipping away--men, women, young, and old.
I have 10 pins. 34 years old. Close to 50k in pins. Worth more to me in pins then at .002 percent interest rate. Not many hobbies where you can get equal return on your investment if you make smart purchases. For that reason I doubt value is going to "plummet".
I'm not surprised by the inflation around A list titles and while there prices may dip, they won't plummet. What I don't understand is how the prices on B and C list titles have skyrocketed. To me, those are the titles where there is potential for prices to plummet. Case in point, there is a FS thread for a DE SW where the asking price is $4600. Really? I can get a GOT Pro for that price. T2 for $3500? System 11 (not restored) for $2500? I get that STTNG and CFTBL are now 5k machines, but I don't want to be the guy holding a $4000 fishtails.
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