(Topic ID: 262181)

Why I Bailed on Stern Pinball


By freakandgeek

43 days ago



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  • 266 posts
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  • Latest reply 41 days ago by pcprogrammer
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    There are 266 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 6.
    #101 43 days ago

    OP: Thanks for so much for bringing this article to the community with your opinions about what is needed to enjoy owning pinball machines (making a profit) and for your insightful responses within this thread. Very helpful.

    To sum to:
    1. Buying NIB is good IF the value increases (and numbers are limited, nothing is ever re-run, title is popular and theme/atmosphere/game play is very good) because you didn't have to do anything.
    2. Buying project older titles is good because the value will increase.... ..once you spend the time and money to fix them.

    You should stick to #2. #1 seems.... Speculative.

    #102 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    The public Determines what are collectibles. Not any business. If I sell something and say “it’s a collectible” that doesn’t mean shit. If you don’t think Pinball machines are collectibles — well I don’t know how I can help you there cause you need to retrain your brain.

    Some, not all pinball machines, are collectibles, as I think you're starting to discover. Most machines made in the last decade won't be collectible for some time, if ever.

    Old baseball cards are collectible. The ones that were over produced in the 90's+ are not.

    #103 43 days ago

    Hey OP, these companies making pinball machines don’t care about the secondary market. They care about making machines that operators and homeowners buy and move on to the next one. Sure, they make limited editions to increase profits, but don’t focus on what happens past the initial sale. Stern in particular never promised you that a game would go up in value or that they would not make another version.

    If you want to go buy a collectible, the Franklin Mint is calling your name..

    #104 43 days ago

    I find this thread interesting. I personally got into the hobby back in the mid 90's after college. My friends and I actually had a small pinball side business but that's another story. In my 20 plus years now messing around with pinball machines, I was fortunate enough to make a few buck on some machines and loosing on others. I haven't got a new Stern in a bit but if one comes out I like I'll still pick it up and if I ever sell I'm not going to loose sleep over it because I knew what I was getting into when I got it. I never expect to make money on them or treat them as an investment. For investments I'll put money into the stock market and other true avenues of investments. The OP has his own reasons and in his eyes it seems he is trying to minimize any loss and that's his decision, in my case if I enjoy the game or the family does I really don't care if I make a buck or loose a few should I ever decide to sell it, for me it is for the fun of playing them and watching family and friends enjoy them. Most hobbies are money drains but I'd like to think all hobbies are done for personal enjoyment, fun and to make memories. Just my 2 cents.

    #105 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    I am not entitled to anything. But their change in production means their games are of little interest to collect. I also firmly believe they could do better if they would stop rerunning machines.
    Sure there are those that will always buy these things new. But other people need to be convinced that they have to get something or they are going to miss out. It’s marketing 101.

    They follow that marketing by making LEs. LE means limited edition. That’s your only guarantee that a pinball machine will be potentially “collectible”. Why would they stop re-running other machines? That makes zero business sense. Again, Stern isn’t “a hobby”. They’re a business. If selling more non-LE games is good for business, your interests as a “collector” are irrelevant.

    #106 43 days ago
    Quoted from Hayfarmer:

    If you're in a hobby to make money, you're stupid.

    Maybe...however you are missing a big reality in this hobby.

    This hobby is very very expensive to engage in and maintain a presence in. There is a huge percentage now in the hobby that really for all practical purposes and financial logic have no business being in the hobby. Lots of guys with +\-60k income with 60k +\- worth of machines. How does that happen? Either very poor financial decisions (credit cards, loans, etc) or alternative income source - in this case usually directly from this flipping / profiteering zeitgeist we are in the midst of.

    It’s true, all NIB machines depreciate, some faster and worse than others but all depreciate. If you stay committed to finding projects and deals, learn how to repair and don’t overspend on silly mods you will absolutely make a profit every single time with used games.

    This has become not just a biproduct of the hobby but for many the ONLY point of entry and a requirement to participate.

    NIB all shiny and sexy and with a new car smell are seductive for those who get to a place where they have a few good valuable games in their lineup or a stockpile of profits from flipping. It’s tempting to buy NIB but the sexiness masks the inevitable depreciation and ultimately those “hobbyists” who rely on the profits get caught off guard with the reality of the depreciation loss.

    I have no ill will with manufacturers driving up costs and pumping out vaults of vaults. Why wouldn’t they?? We just keep buying!

    #107 43 days ago
    Quoted from slicknick13:

    If Chevrolet could reasonably make a profit from a new '53 Corvette, then I have no doubt they would. There's no binding contract that something is a collectable, they certainly weren't when they were new.
    Hell, you can build a brand new '69 Camaro from parts these days.

    Must be too young to remember how many checker cabs (1959-1982 production) there were BITD.

    -1
    #108 43 days ago
    Quoted from herbertbsharp:

    No man, you're fucking yourself.

    I'm not flexible enough...need more yoga.

    #109 43 days ago
    Quoted from SadSack:

    Must be too young to remember how many checker cabs (1959-1982 production) there were BITD.

    Cabs? Give me a break.

    #110 43 days ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    They follow that marketing by making LEs. LE means limited edition. That’s your only guarantee that a pinball machine will be potentially “collectible”. Why would they stop re-running other machines? That makes zero business sense. Again, Stern isn’t “a hobby”. They’re a business. If selling more non-LE games is good for business, your interests as a “collector” are irrelevant.

    It's only truly limited if the demand outweighs the desire. Spooky are the only ones doing this right today. The other companies are missing the mark.

    Stern puts out 500 LE's. That is way too many. "Limited" Stranger Things still available, Beatles still available, Elvira, etc.

    Let me just say I have limited edition t-shirts of no more than one millions copies. Is it really a collectable?

    Their business would be better if they induced better fear of missing out. Re-running vaults on every popular game (outside of Tron) is not going to help get people off the fence.

    #111 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    Cabs? Give me a break.

    I operate games. I spent over $20k on them last year. I bought LOTR, TAF, TFLE, Munsters Pro, TSPP, BBBB and a slugfest. What you are saying is completely retarded from this perspective. There are not any games other than stern or Sys11/WPC that are dependable enough to operate efficiently. So if Stern is crap because you can't make money off them, you are trying to make money off them the wrong way. Not every hobby is for every person.

    36
    #112 43 days ago

    He has his opinion and no amount of logic is going to sway him from his argument. He didn’t come here to discuss anything, he came here for a pat on the back and an echo chamber but now that he’s not getting the response he wanted, he’s threatening to leave.

    I mean, that really says it all about his character and the value of his opinion.

    Instead of bitching about how Stern done you wrong, maybe be grateful you have a hobby that mostly pays for itself. That’s a rare treat.

    #113 43 days ago

    He did earn a participation trophy's worth of engagement, though.

    -3
    #114 43 days ago
    Quoted from jsandjs:

    I find this thread interesting. I personally got into the hobby back in the mid 90's after college. My friends and I actually had a small pinball side business but that's another story. In my 20 plus years now messing around with pinball machines, I was fortunate enough to make a few buck on some machines and loosing on others. I haven't got a new Stern in a bit but if one comes out I like I'll still pick it up and if I ever sell I'm not going to loose sleep over it because I knew what I was getting into when I got it. I never expect to make money on them or treat them as an investment. For investments I'll put money into the stock market and other true avenues of investments. The OP has his own reasons and in his eyes it seems he is trying to minimize any loss and that's his decision, in my case if I enjoy the game or the family does I really don't care if I make a buck or loose a few should I ever decide to sell it, for me it is for the fun of playing them and watching family and friends enjoy them. Most hobbies are money drains but I'd like to think all hobbies are done for personal enjoyment, fun and to make memories. Just my 2 cents.

    I literally lost many millions in the stock market in the dot.com crash. So forgive me that I have looked to alternatives like real estate or even pinball. Pinball really just is my slush fund. I always can sell a game for what I have in it or more for a quick emergency bill.

    #115 43 days ago

    Whatever the initial intent of this article/thread, it's quite evident at this point that you "seeing where this goes" equates to seeing how long you can keep the thread going and/or seeing how many down votes you can garner through the use of stupid/snarky/quippy one line responses. I bought in for a while... But maybe just time to go enjoy my pinball machines. Good luck with your quest.

    #116 43 days ago
    Quoted from DBLM:

    Hey OP, these companies making pinball machines don’t care about the secondary market. They care about making machines that operators and homeowners buy and move on to the next one. Sure, they make limited editions to increase profits, but don’t focus on what happens past the initial sale. Stern in particular never promised you that a game would go up in value or that they would not make another version.
    If you want to go buy a collectible, the Franklin Mint is calling your name..

    Of course they don't care, but what if they did? Hint: they would be even more successful. There are win-wins in the world. The smartest businesses live by this.

    -2
    #117 43 days ago
    Quoted from cmack750:

    Whatever the initial intent of this article/thread, it's quite evident at this point that you "seeing where this goes" equates to seeing how long you can keep the thread going and/or seeing how many down votes you can garner through the use of stupid/snarky/quippy one line responses. I bought in for a while... But maybe just time to go enjoy my pinball machines. Good luck with your quest.

    I am getting paid a penny per post. So they tell me!

    #118 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    I am getting paid a penny per post. So they tell me!

    Then by all means, keep going. Maybe you can make a few bucks back on the NIB machines you've lost money on.

    -1
    #119 43 days ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    He has his opinion and no amount of logic is going to sway him from his argument. He didn’t come here to discuss anything, he came here for a pat on the back and an echo chamber but now that he’s not getting the response he wanted, he’s threatening to leave.
    I mean, that really says it all about his character and the value of his opinion.
    Instead of bitching about how Stern done you wrong, maybe be grateful you have a hobby that mostly pays for itself. That’s a rare treat.

    I was not threatening to leave, I just rarely respond back to my posts as I don't find it worthwhile. I figured I would try it this time, but I have just reconfirmed what I learned before. There may be some nuanced thinkers here, but they are not the ones that post.

    I am very grateful for the pinball hobby. It saved me from a life on the street. And my friends here are so supportive. Thank you all.

    #120 43 days ago
    Quoted from SadSack:

    I operate games. I spent over $20k on them last year. I bought LOTR, TAF, TFLE, Munsters Pro, TSPP, BBBB and a slugfest. What you are saying is completely retarded from this perspective. There are not any games other than stern or Sys11/WPC that are dependable enough to operate efficiently. So if Stern is crap because you can't make money off them, you are trying to make money off them the wrong way. Not every hobby is for every person.

    I am not an operator...nor did I write from that perspective.

    #121 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    So forgive me that I have looked to alternatives like real estate or even pinball.

    Sound like a speculator with money to burn.
    That’s ok. Hope you chose real estate over NIB pinball.

    #122 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    My point was that we re-running games five years down the road is something new and kills the collectibility of your machine. This is a relatively new phenomenon...every popular game is going to get rerun.

    It is and why do you think that is? Maybe there are people that really enjoy pinball and jump at the chance to buy a game they previously missed out on. The remakes exist because of this popularity. I'm sure there are some owners sour that their original MM is no longer worth $20,000 or whatever but many more happy that they can finally own their dream game. I hope they remake many more titles, do more vaults, and in general produce popular games people really want. It just sucks when games are limited and only affordable to those with deep pockets.

    #123 43 days ago

    For too long this hobby this hobby has been driven by the 'what it owes me mentality'.

    Self fulfilling prophesy that has seen prices rise year on year.

    Market saturation is starting to hurt the 'what it owes me crowd'.

    #124 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    I literally lost many millions in the stock market in the dot.com crash. So forgive me that I have looked to alternatives like real estate or even pinball. Pinball really just is my slush fund. I always can sell a game for what I have in it or more for a quick emergency bill.

    And your diatribe is over the financial risks of pinball? Sorry, I thought you were some 25 YO millennial bitching about how people actually did "stuff" before you showed up. We're these "millions" you lost paper profits or options?

    #125 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    Of course they don't care, but what if they did? Hint: they would be even more successful. There are win-wins in the world. The smartest businesses live by this.

    This is a moronic statement. They are in the manufacturing business, not the collectibles business. Anything they do to try and constrain their sales hurts them. They never pretended to focus on the secondary market and they should not. Your world view on this topic is really out of focus.

    -2
    #126 43 days ago
    Quoted from cmack750:

    OP: Thanks for so much for bringing this article to the community with your opinions about what is needed to enjoy owning pinball machines (making a profit) and for your insightful responses within this thread. Very helpful.
    To sum to:
    1. Buying NIB is good IF the value increases (and numbers are limited, nothing is ever re-run, title is popular and theme/atmosphere/game play is very good) because you didn't have to do anything.
    2. Buying project older titles is good because the value will increase.... ..once you spend the time and money to fix them.
    You should stick to #2. #1 seems.... Speculative.

    I think maybe you missed a big chunk of the point. AC/DC Premiums were worth about $8000 at one point. Seeing one for sale used was kind of an event.

    What would they be going for now had they not been re-run over and over again? $9K? $10k? How fast would they sell?

    I would not have sold mine for sure, as I would be too worried it would cost me $10K or $12K later on if I missed it too much.

    Going forward anyone who has a feeling of FOMO for a Stern at this point is just being silly. FOMO drives sales.

    #127 43 days ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    For too long this hobby this hobby has been driven by the 'what it owes me mentality'.
    Self fulfilling prophesy that has seen prices rise year on year.
    Market saturation is starting to hurt the 'what it owes me crowd'.

    Rich guy "wannabe" or "douchebaggery" phenomenon. It's prevalent around here.

    #128 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    I think maybe you missed a big chunk of the point. AC/DC Premiums were worth about $8000 at one point. Seeing one for sale used was kind of an event.
    What would they be going for now had they not been re-run over and over again? $9K? $10k? How fast would they sell?
    I would not have sold mine for sure, as I would be too worried it would cost me $10K or $12K later on if I missed it too much.
    Going forward anyone who has a feeling of FOMO for a Stern at this point is just being silly. FOMO drives sales.

    It's nice to get that type of value from a game but ACDC Premium was never intended to be a limited release game. If you want an ACDC that is worth $8k - $10k then the only one is the LE. Even then the only reason ACDC LE's are worth more then nearly all Stern releases that followed it is because of limited LE counts of 250 or less. These 500, 750, and 1000+ LE counts (looking at your JJP) are ridiculous.

    #130 43 days ago
    Quoted from DBLM:This is a moronic statement. They are in the manufacturing business, not the collectibles business. Anything they do to try and constrain their sales hurts them. They never pretended to focus on the secondary market and they should not. Your world view on this topic is really out of focus.

    If we had a true FOMO on every new Stern, how many day one buyers would they be getting? Did you miss the Spooky sellout within 4 hours?

    #131 43 days ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    It's nice to get that type of value from a game but ACDC Premium was never intended to be a limited release game. If you want an ACDC that is worth $8k - $10k then the only one is the LE.

    Up until recently...nearly every game was limited. Even the ones that sold a ton. White Water = limited, Creature = limited, Shadow = limited, Data East = GNR limited, etc.

    #132 43 days ago
    Quoted from Shapeshifter:

    For too long this hobby this hobby has been driven by the 'what it owes me mentality'.
    Self fulfilling prophesy that has seen prices rise year on year.
    Market saturation is starting to hurt the 'what it owes me crowd'.

    I don't think you understand how markets work...

    #133 43 days ago

    "Let’s look at the values of the Stern games I decided to get rid of recently:"

    This is where I closed the tab. If you're leading an argument with "my toys aren't worth as much", I just can't be bothered. Go console yourself with cheap Beanie Babies.

    10
    #134 43 days ago

    Stupidest thing I ever tried to read.

    Just play the games, that’s where your investment pays off!

    #135 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    That is a loser is mentality.

    Grammar much?

    #136 43 days ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    He has his opinion and no amount of logic is going to sway him from his argument. He didn’t come here to discuss anything, he came here for a pat on the back and an echo chamber

    Exactly. There’s no conversation here. Just a lecture about greed from a greedy person who can’t greed anymore with Stern games. Best advice in this thread is to drain it.

    #137 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    I don't think you understand how markets work...

    I was going to reply in detail but then I just thought a LOL would suffice

    #138 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    If we had a true FOMO on every new Stern, how many day one buyers would they be getting? Did you miss the Spooky sellout within 4 hours?

    You comparing Spooky to Stern is a poor comparison. Of course Spooky only produces the number of pins that they originally state as they're a family business and can't go back and do a "vault" edition. In the time it takes Spooky to produce 1 machine Stern has released 3, 4, 5+ machines. You're comparing a manufacturing company to a ma and pop business for which Spooky is proud to be just that!

    The vast majority of your reason for being dissatisfied in Stern is due to them not really making a collectible machine but in the same sense neither does JJP. Let's not forget CGC who's main raison d'etre is to reproduce machines that are highly collectible.

    As for the quality of Stern, this is where I do tend to agree with you. To me Stern machines seem cheaper then the other manufacturers. To me, again, when Stern releases a new machine it appears to me that it has a lot of same features as past releases with a new toy. Not bashing Stern as this is my opinion but it has led to me looking to other manufacturers as opposed to Stern. IF Stern would release a desired theme I've been looking for I would buy it but, for now, I look to JJP and possibly Spooky.

    #139 43 days ago
    Quoted from Dkjimbo:

    Maybe...however you are missing a big reality in this hobby.
    This hobby is very very expensive to engage in and maintain a presence in. There is a huge percentage now in the hobby that really for all practical purposes and financial logic have no business being in the hobby. Lots of guys with +\-60k income with 60k +\- worth of machines. How does that happen? Either very poor financial decisions (credit cards, loans, etc) or alternative income source - in this case usually directly from this flipping / profiteering zeitgeist we are in the midst of.
    It’s true, all NIB machines depreciate, some faster and worse than others but all depreciate. If you stay committed to finding projects and deals, learn how to repair and don’t overspend on silly mods you will absolutely make a profit every single time with used games.
    This has become not just a biproduct of the hobby but for many the ONLY point of entry and a requirement to participate.
    NIB all shiny and sexy and with a new car smell are seductive for those who get to a place where they have a few good valuable games in their lineup or a stockpile of profits from flipping. It’s tempting to buy NIB but the sexiness masks the inevitable depreciation and ultimately those “hobbyists” who rely on the profits get caught off guard with the reality of the depreciation loss.
    I have no ill will with manufacturers driving up costs and pumping out vaults of vaults. Why wouldn’t they?? We just keep buying!

    I actually think this is an affordable hobby ,compared to cars, vacations, shooting or flying. At least you can reasonably sell or trade something for +or- a few hundred. Corvettes are 70k, 2weeks in Hawaii is 8 to 10k. I can buy a new stern, which I really like, play for a year and get a decent return. Cant do that on a vette, hot rod or vacation. Best hobby I've been part of has been pins

    -1
    #140 43 days ago

    gonna hijack this garbage thread to promote my thread on collectors I actually like: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/niche-collections

    #141 43 days ago
    Quoted from Boondocker:

    Stupidest thing I ever tried to read.
    Just play the games, that’s where your investment pays off!

    AGREED

    #142 43 days ago
    Quoted from pinzrfun:

    Grammar much?

    making fun of someone's grammar is also a loser mentality.

    #143 43 days ago
    Quoted from Hayfarmer:

    Cant do that on a vette, hot rod or vacation. Best hobby I've been part of has been pins

    a hobby where you can reasonably liquidate your collection at 70% of it's value within a few weeks is almost unheard of.
    That you also get to play with your games daily makes pinball incredibly unique and awesome. Pinball is the best.

    #144 43 days ago
    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    making fun of someone's grammar is also a loser mentality.

    Says the guy who just did it himself a few posts ago...

    Quoted from freakandgeek:

    You may want to open a dictionary.

    -3
    #145 43 days ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Exactly. There’s no conversation here. Just a lecture about greed from a greedy person who can’t greed anymore with Stern games. Best advice in this thread is to drain it.

    Not seeing much logic or nuanced thinking here at all...just a bunch of people that call me names like "greedy." You call that a conversation?

    #146 43 days ago
    Quoted from JodyG:

    Says the guy who just did it himself a few posts ago...

    Where did I correct someone's grammar? That was not me.

    #147 43 days ago

    Let’s not forget the true purpose of these machines; to give a few minutes of entertainment and to earn money. Most operaters are making 10-30k (estimate) on a popular machine which is routed for years! Then to be able to still get 4-6k for the machine, is just the icing on the cake.

    Some home collectors forget this and losing 1-2k is too much for them to fathom.

    #148 43 days ago
    Quoted from Bowlingpin:

    Let’s not forget the true purpose of these machines; to give a few minutes of entertainment and to earn money. Most operaters are making 10-30k (estimate) on a popular machine which is routed for years! Then to be able to still get 4-6k for the machine, is just the icing on the cake.
    Some home collectors forget this and losing 1-2k is too much for them to fathom.

    Your estimate is way too high

    #149 43 days ago
    Quoted from screaminr:

    I used to buy a lot of collectables thinking they would be worth money in the future . From collectible toys , animation cells , bmx's , pinballs ect . I've learnt if you want an investment buy land , shares or gold . JJP , CGC make new versions of their old games , so it's not just Stern . Buy a pinball machine for the fun of playing it , not to make money , and if you do make money on it , consider it a bonus .

    Agreed.

    This hobby, like all others and also life, is filled with cheap people. This whole thread points it out.

    Play pinball, sell pinball for whatever - usually a loss, buy more pinball...

    Nothing like selling a $7k pinball machine then the person shows up asking for $100 off the agreed price "just because...". "Just because" = "cheap jerk" trying to make themselves feel like 'they got a deal'

    #150 43 days ago
    Quoted from NorCalRealtor:

    Your estimate is way too high

    I promise you it’s based on actual numbers and by talking with a few operators.

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