(Topic ID: 220252)

Why ESPN televises Cornhole championships and not PAPA


By pinwiztom

1 year ago



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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by vid1900
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    There are 118 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 1 year ago

    One would think somehow the IFPA or PAPA can wrangle a broadcast deal to televise their championships on ESPN.

    If the ACL can get their Southern Cornhole Championships on TV,
    Pinball should be able to, just need some corporate sponsorship help I guess.
    Cornhole currently on ESPN SAT 12PM to 2PM here on west coast.

    #2 1 year ago

    Difference between cornhole and pinball is speed of play. Watching players linger around not paying attention whomsoever up to play (unnecessary) and waiting 2 mins between balls after a tilt (necessary) are our biggest hurdles to getting broadcasted IMHO.

    Not to many people will spend 1.5 hours to watch 3 games (average time per round).

    #3 1 year ago

    Is it also a licencing issue?

    #4 1 year ago

    In our last Pinball & Arcade expo we had a MS-Pacman tournament and it was very exciting to watch. But Pinball tournaments as a spectator? Shoot me in the face, seriously. I would rather watch...what was it? Cornholing?

    11
    #5 1 year ago

    Cornhole use to have a way different meaning

    #6 1 year ago

    I call it bags , but it is far more popular than pinball .

    #7 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    Difference between cornhole and pinball is speed of play. Watching players linger around not paying attention whomsoever up to play (unnecessary) and waiting 2 mins between balls after a tilt (necessary) are our biggest hurdles to getting broadcasted IMHO.
    Not to many people will spend 1.5 hours to watch 3 games (average time per round).

    It is more of a challenge to edit, but the boring bits could be mostly eliminated.

    Think about golf without editing. A guy spends multiple minutes planning a shot, 10 seconds actually lined up over it and hitting it, then a couple of minutes walking to the next shot. Sure, many people might say golf is still boring to watch, but MANY people do watch it.

    #8 1 year ago
    Quoted from 0geist0:

    Cornhole use to have a way different meaning

    Cornhole championship? What does that entail

    #9 1 year ago
    Quoted from herg:

    It is more of a challenge to edit, but the boring bits could be mostly eliminated

    Yeah, I think so too.

    While some live pinball can drag on, you could make a pretty snappy highlights show.

    Look at the recent NYPC - you could edit that great Aerosmith game down to highlights of the first 2 balls, extended portions of Jons playing, then show all of Bowen’s great last ball where he goes from 0 to 210,000,000 on one ball.

    That’d be some great viewing.

    rd

    -8
    #10 1 year ago

    Thing is while watching the cornhole tourney,
    it became apparent that there was not much
    in real talent or skills involved.

    #11 1 year ago

    There actually is a decent amount of skill involved in Cornhole. Similar to horshoes and basketball, getting the bag to land on the board and not slide off, can be tricky. You can also knock an opponents bag off and “steal” points.
    Tons of college kids and up play the game. Trumps pinball easily in terms of numbers....

    #12 1 year ago

    I'm with you. I was watching the EA Sports NHL video game championship on a flight home recently on Direct TV. They didn't show the whole matches just clips. More about the build up drama of the players, where from and back story. This could easily be done for pinball.

    And I don't know about you guys, but I'm starting to see a lot more pinball machines in TV commercials, shows, etc. I think this could work if done well.

    #13 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    waiting 2 mins between balls after a tilt (necessary) are our biggest hurdles to getting broadcasted IMHO.

    That's not a hurdle...

    That's advertising slots.

    #14 1 year ago

    It is perfect for twitch and they do a nice job with it. I think it is a huge hurtle to educate the viewer and also get enough commercial revenue for events like this.

    ABC goes to obtain a sponsor, they explain to the sponsor that the event is pinball. Most of the suits in the room are confused as to what pinball even is. That's a big hurdle. Either way I love it and would root for it to be on TV but I am not sure what would have to be overcome to make it a reality.

    Twitch is great in the mean time and I'm happy to support it on internet stream.

    #15 1 year ago

    Saw cornhole on ESPN2 recently as well. They were in some WI town, I think Green Bay. I couldn't believe it. I was like damn how did they get this set up.

    Johnsonville sausage was a huge sponsor, also from WI.

    #16 1 year ago

    Drag racing is televised and they have to edit out the vast majority of an event.

    #17 1 year ago

    Seriously, I think the major issue is in creativity of editing, and in the excitement of the commentators. If the commentators are boring (and let’s face it, most guys who know the rules are not born broadcasters), it’s a no-go. Commentators are hard to find, and good ones are almost impossible. Even the ones who seem “bad” on tv are masters. That needs to be priority #1. Pinball is SO different from other things on ESPN, they can’t just study the book the night before. It is hard to be so on point so quickly.

    #18 1 year ago

    The boredom peaks July 4th with the Nathan's hot dog eating contest. Can't wait for September.

    #19 1 year ago
    Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

    Drag racing is televised and they have to edit out the vast majority of an event.

    Drag Racing is exciting though. Pinball not so much.

    #20 1 year ago
    Quoted from 0geist0:

    Drag Racing is exciting though. Pinball not so much.

    You missed the point completely. It's heavily edited to seem interesting on TV. If a similar process were applied to pinball, pinball would seem more interesting to the casual viewer.

    #21 1 year ago

    Cornhole is redneck and people that watch sports.

    Pinball is not.

    #22 1 year ago

    Funny topic! My girlfriend was rubbing the fact that cornhole is televised and pinball is not in my face just last weekend.

    #23 1 year ago

    Pinball is only a sport on the Ocho.

    espn8theocho (resized).jpg
    #24 1 year ago

    Someone who has never seen corn hole, could understand the strategy after 5 minutes of watching.

    Pinball is way more complex, with each machine having different rules and strategies.

    #25 1 year ago
    Quoted from fumbleflippers:

    Pinball is only a sport on the Ocho.

    Pinball is almost a sport!

    #26 1 year ago

    Poker would be boring if they showed every second of the events. Cut to the highlight games with commentary in between and all that other fluff they add to the edited show. Have a bigger than 2k prize pool and it could work if only you believe in it.

    #27 1 year ago

    I like watching pinball and the dozens of us who do would like to see it heavily promoted.

    #28 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    I like watching pinball and the dozens of us who do

    That’s pretty funny right there.

    rd

    #29 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    Not to many people will spend 1.5 hours to watch 3 games (average time per round).

    Millions watch a 3-4 hour game of football for 5 mins of action.

    The reason why pinball isn’t on espn is because no one cares about pinball. Haha

    #30 1 year ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Millions watch a 3-4 hour game of football for 5 mins of action.
    The reason why pinball isn’t on espn is because no one cares about pinball. Haha

    Sure.... Theirs a lot of action in a 45 min 4 player game of pinball too... In any 4 player match their are maybe 5-6 moments of anything remotely exciting to watch. Perfect example: how many people really wanted to watch any of the games of Ripleys in the Papa Circuit finals.

    Sure watching skilled players cradle balls and shoot their shots is neat for us but the average person isn't going to get excited about that. It will be multiball and a couple of really good outlane saves that would be anything an average Joe considers remotely exciting.

    #31 1 year ago
    Quoted from trilogybeer:

    I call it bags , but it is far more popular than pinball .

    Cost of entry to bags is what $50. As a result, there are a lot more people who play bags then play pinball.

    #32 1 year ago

    Absolutely no reason pinball couldn't be televised. All you need is good production and good commentary teams with chemistry and enough knowledge about the games (less than you'd think really) and the players (more important than you'd think) to pull it off.

    That doesn't mean it will ever happen but it certainly can be done in a way that would make it interesting to a home viewer. People who say otherwise are haters with small imaginations.

    And yes, I've gotten the emails and texts from civilians telling me "Cornhole is on ESPN! Where's pinball?!"

    #33 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    People who say otherwise are haters with small imaginations.

    That's pretty arrogant even for you Levi. Just because some people may disagree doesn't meant they are haters. I would love to see pinball on TV but under the current formats of our sport I'm realistic and understand it's slim to no chance.

    Their is a lot more wrong with our sport than just what has been stated already that limit the average Joe from watching. Think about all the "That's pinball" rulings that happen for instance. Those that don't know pinball see that and feel the game is rigged to allow one player to win or that things aren't fair.

    Another perfect example:
    I start 5 ball Agent MB on Lexi during the Bat City tournament. Only one ball is released from the game so I realize this and try to trap a ball. I drain while trying to trap. Ruling is - That's pinball basically as it's a loss of a feature and not considered a major malfunction. It's the right ruling in accordance to our rules but how do you think the average person would feel watching it after hearing something along the lines of the following from commentators:
    - Looks like they have 5 balls locked now for Multiball. That's really good as for every ball locked the score increases. This is going to give this player a really good chance at wining this match unless the other players can accomplish the same.
    - He just started 5 ball Multiball! This is going to be good!
    - Oh wait, the game malfunctioned and only kicked out 1 ball. That's not good.
    - Just a reminder to our viewers, a player can't play in multiball with a ball stuck so he's going to be forced to trap up to get a Tournament official their to release the other balls.
    - Oh no, that ball drained out the outlane while he tried to trap up to prevent from being DQed on the game.
    - Player is asking for a ruling which was, play on.
    - So he lost his 5 ball multiball and lost his ball trying to trap. Tough break for player 1.

    This stuff happens ALL the time. We know the rules so we understand it even if we don't agree with it but thinking with an open mind this time, how do you feel the average person watching that on TV would feel about the "fairness" of our sport? Stuff like this is a big hurdle IMHO.

    #34 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    That's pretty arrogant even for you Levi. Just because some people may disagree doesn't meant they are haters. I would love to see pinball on TV but under the current formats of our sport I'm realistic and understand it's slim to no chance.
    Their is a lot more wrong with our sport than just what has been stated already that limit the average Joe from watching. Think about all the "That's pinball" rulings that happen for instance. Those that don't know pinball see that and feel the game is rigged to allow one player to win or that things aren't fair.
    Another perfect example:
    I start 5 ball Agent MB on Lexi during the Bat City tournament. Only one ball is released from the game so I realize this and try to trap a ball. I drain while trying to trap. Ruling is - That's pinball basically as it's a loss of a feature and not considered a major malfunction. It's the right ruling in accordance to our rules but how do you think the average person would feel watching it after hearing something along the lines of the following from commentators:
    - Looks like they have 5 balls locked now for Multiball. That's really good as for every ball locked the score increases. This is going to give this player a really good chance at wining this match unless the other players can accomplish the same.
    - He just started 5 ball Multiball! This is going to be good!
    - Oh wait, the game malfunctioned and only kicked out 1 ball. That's not good.
    - Just a reminder to our viewers, a player can't play in multiball with a ball stuck so he's going to be forced to trap up to get a Tournament official their to release the other balls.
    - Oh no, that ball drained out the outlane while he tried to trap up to prevent from being DQed on the game.
    - Player is asking for a ruling which was, play on.
    - So he lost his 5 ball multiball and lost his ball trying to trap. Tough break for player 1.
    This stuff happens ALL the time. We know the rules so we understand it even if we don't agree with it but thinking with an open mind this time, how do you feel the average person watching that on TV would feel about the "fairness" of our sport? Stuff like this is a big hurdle IMHO.

    Is Cornhole Live? I doubt it. Most of the C-sports/esports on ESPN aren't. Even EXTREME sports stuff I see on ESPN usually isn't live. This stuff could be edited down for broadcast to take care of most of the issues you describe.

    Live I think it would only work if you had numerous games that could be quickly swapped around to kill dead air.

    Instead of talking about which new game is coming out, or some boring story about how you did in the tournament, commentators need to be a little creative with dead air. Bring a top player who either just beefed or boomed into the booth for a quick interview. At a show? Who knows who's walking around. At pintastic on Saturday, John Borg walked right by the booth right when a broadcasted game of X-men (which he designed) was about to happen, so we grabbed him in for a quick gab.

    Not everything works, but we have to try stuff to break it up. Variety is good. Moving on from boring stories is good. We need to pace it in the booth...if any kind of bit is going on too long, move on to something else.

    #35 1 year ago

    ESPN upper brass likes cornholes....that why

    #36 1 year ago
    Quoted from Blitzburgh99:

    ESPN upper brass likes cornholes....that why

    If only Fox ran ESPN, am I right?! Then we'd get some fair and balanced pinball broadcasting!

    #37 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Is Cornhole Live? I doubt it. Most of the C-sports/esports on ESPN aren't. Even EXTREME sports stuff I see on ESPN usually isn't live. This stuff could be edited down for broadcast to take care of most of the issues you describe.
    Live I think it would only work if you had numerous games that could be quickly swapped around to kill dead air.
    Instead of talking about which new game is coming out, or some boring story about how you did in the tournament, commentators need to be a little creative with dead air. Bring a top player who either just beefed or boomed into the booth for a quick interview. At a show? Who knows who's walking around. At pintastic on Saturday, John Borg walked by right when an X-men game was about to happen, so we grabbed him in for a quick gab.
    Not everything works, but we have to try stuff to break it up. Variety is good. Moving on from boring stories is good. We need to pace it in the booth...if any kind of bit is going on too long, move on to something else.

    No, it wasn't live but they also didn't cut out portions of the game. They cut out the dead time between matches.

    That again, goes to another challenge of pinball. Kieth Elwin has a 15 min game of which most of the play doesn't match the "excitement" meter. Are they supposed to cut out the cradle time and parts where he's not scoring something major? How do we expect a viewer to accept this. Game shows 100 million on the scoreboard, they cut and come back and now it's 200 million to conserve time. You can't cut in and out during balls as you lose the flow and the ability of someone to follow the game (how scores happened and if they learn rules the progress in the game). You're only cutting out the time between players walking up which takes me to my first point at the top of the thread. How many, non-pinheads, will spend 1.5 hours watching 1 single round of 3 games PAPA style?

    #38 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    No, it wasn't live but they also didn't cut out portions of the game. They cut out the dead time between matches.
    That again, goes to another challenge of pinball. Kieth Elwin has a 15 min game of which most of the play doesn't match the "excitement" meter. Are they supposed to cut out the cradle time and parts where he's not scoring something major? How do we expect a viewer to accept this. Game shows 100 million on the scoreboard, they cut and come back and now it's 200 million to conserve time. You can't cut in and out during balls as you lose the flow and the ability of someone to follow the game (how scores happened and if they learn rules the progress in the game). You're only cutting out the time between players walking up which takes me to my first point at the top of the thread. How many, non-pinheads, will spend 1.5 hours watching 1 single round of 3 games PAPA style?

    Again, if you are talkin about editing, it's easy. IF Keith Elwin has a big but boring 15 minute game, just don't show it. Who cares. Show the dramatic parts. You could edit that game down to 45 seconds probably. Just show a couple boom jackpots and move on. As his opponent sucked, you don't have to show any of his game at all, maybe just a couple reaction shots. You could edit most rounds of PAPA style pinball down to the one most exciting game, and if only 2 of the 4 players have good games, that's what you show. Creative editing solves almost all of the so-called problems I'm hearing here.

    As far as the "that's pinball!" stuff you were talking about - "unfair" stuff that will somehow offend or bore the home viewer - seems more like you are airing gripes about stuff that's happened to you in tournaments then making a serious application of real life experience to show why pinball sucks on TV. The rulings you are talking about are GREAT if you ask me for booth drama. If I was in the booth, I'd be screaming about this dramatic turn of events on how a player just got fucked. And I'd try to grab the affected player, the TD, anybody I could for a quick moment to get a hot take on what just happened. I'd try to interview the winner and ask what THEY think about winning on such a CONTROVERSIAL AND SHOCKING call!!! I'd get Josh Sharpe on the phone (complete with a graphic of Josh Sharpe with "Live Via Phone" text) and ask what the league office in Chicago thinks, just like they do on NFL broadcasts. Life ain't fair and neither is pinball. Terrible/unfair shit happens in ALL sports, ALL the time - so use it for drama, not boredom. When an NFL game is decided on a dodgy call they milk the story FOR AN ENTIRE WEEK on sports TV, doesn't seem to hurt the sport any.

    Friggin CORNHOLE is on ESPN. I think we could make pinball work.

    #39 1 year ago

    Would rather watch old Sale of the Century reruns than either of the options being discussed in this thread

    -2
    #40 1 year ago

    Pinball could totally work if edited.

    They used to televise arm wrestling on ABC's Wide World of Sports.

    #41 1 year ago

    Who would be the advertisers that would pay for the ESPN telecast? That’s really the hold up.

    #42 1 year ago
    Quoted from Blitzburgh99:

    Who would be the advertisers that would pay for the ESPN telecast? That’s really the hold up.

    I'd start by calling all of the advertisers for E-sports and go from there.

    A popular energy drink for gamers, G-Fuel, were significant sponsors for the recent New York City Pinball Championships. I'd call them first.

    #43 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    Difference between cornhole and pinball is speed of play. Watching players linger around not paying attention whomsoever up to play (unnecessary) and waiting 2 mins between balls after a tilt (necessary) are our biggest hurdles to getting broadcasted IMHO.
    Not to many people will spend 1.5 hours to watch 3 games (average time per round).

    That's not an issue at all. Those events aren't televised live. You just cut that stuff out.

    #44 1 year ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Again, if you are talkin about editing, it's easy. IF Keith Elwin has a big but boring 15 minute game, just don't show it.

    And if this was in the finals? Now what? You're over simplifying things. Think holistically.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    As far as the "that's pinball!" stuff you were talking about - "unfair" stuff that will somehow offend or bore the home viewer - seems more like you are airing gripes about stuff that's happened to you in tournaments then making a serious application of real life experience to show why pinball sucks on TV. The rulings you are talking about are GREAT if you ask me for booth drama. If I was in the booth, I'd be screaming about this dramatic turn of events on how a player just got fucked. And I'd try to grab the affected player, the TD, anybody I could for a quick moment to get a hot take on what just happened. I'd try to interview the winner and ask what THEY think about winning on such a CONTROVERSIAL AND SHOCKING call!!! I'd get Josh Sharpe on the phone (complete with a graphic of Josh Sharpe with "Live Via Phone" text) and ask what the league office in Chicago thinks, just like they do on NFL broadcasts. Life ain't fair and neither is pinball. Terrible/unfair shit happens in ALL sports, ALL the time - so use it for drama, not boredom. When an NFL game is decided on a dodgy call they milk the story FOR AN ENTIRE WEEK on sports TV, doesn't seem to hurt the sport any.

    Seriously Levi.... How in the world is using real world tournament experiences not a serious application of real life experiences to show why pinball would suck on TV? What am I supposed to use, non-real world examples? Then you would argue that I'm using hypothetical events which would never happen. You do realize you aren't the only good tournament player on this message board right?

    Yes, I'm using real world personal examples to justify my points as that's what normal people do in a discussion. They provide a concern and examples to justify that concern is real and a valid challenge that needs to be faced.

    I've said my piece and I think it's time to move on. I hope it does happen but I do feel it's way more complex than everyone is trying to make it out to be.

    #45 1 year ago
    Quoted from 85vett:

    And if this was in the finals? Now what? You're over simplifying things. Think holistically.

    Seriously Levi.... How in the world is using real world tournament experiences not a serious application of real life experiences to show why pinball would suck on TV? What am I supposed to use, non-real world examples? Then you would argue that I'm using hypothetical events which would never happen. You do realize you aren't the only good tournament player on this message board right?
    Yes, I'm using real world personal examples to justify my points as that's what normal people do in a discussion. They provide a concern and examples to justify that concern is real and a valid challenge that needs to be faced.

    I understand. I used real world examples on why the stuff you are talking about doesn't have to be detriment or a hurdle. It can all add to the hype and the drama and the 10 minutes where the TDs are discussing a malfunction can be edited out.

    I see a lot of naysaying on this stuff and I just don't see it. ESPN runs so much stuff that would be absolutely unwatchable without editing. I see no reason why pinball couldn't work for a niche audience. Tractor pulls aren't pulling in Super Bowl ratings and they still show it, same with Cornhole. There's absolutely no reason why pinball couldn't make it.

    I do feel it's way simpler than everyone is trying to make it out to be. There's ESPN C-list sports producers who could edit a big tournament into something watchable in their sleep.

    #46 1 year ago

    From my experience, the more full of someone is of themselves is equally disproportional to how well they listen to others.

    #47 1 year ago
    Quoted from snyper2099:

    That's not an issue at all. Those events aren't televised live. You just cut that stuff out.

    Couldn't agree more! We are totally on the same page!

    #48 1 year ago
    Quoted from Rdoyle1978:

    creativity of editing, and in the excitement of the commentators

    This is the key.

    Darts are boring, but a commentator yelling ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY keeps the audience focused.

    Soccer had lots of slow building plays, them, GOOOAAAAAAALLLL!!!!!

    you would need to edit the games down and just show highlights of key strategies from players, great shot combos made, ect. You could even have slow-mo replays with graphics imposed on the screen showing the ramps needed to hit (think baseball pitching location replays). The announcers would need to have knowledge of each games rules. The game would have to be edited to look “head to head” game play to build excitement.

    If tv can make boring events like pawn shops, curling, and home remodeling into exciting shows, then the only limitation with pinball is editing and announcing.

    #49 1 year ago

    I really believe that TV, as we know it today, is ultimately doomed. No one growing up now is going to stand for a box called a television, suggesting to them what is important enough to be broadcast to millions of homes...

    Having said that, I would really like to see pinball continue to thrive and expand on the internet in the form of streams and such. Over the weekend, I helped with a local tournament and it was a lot of fun and there was some great moments that would never have been seen at all if it was not for the internet.

    Sure, the biggest pinball tournament in the world is cool to those that are playing in it. However, it does not represent the entire competitive pinball scene or guarantee any exciting competitive pinball moments at all. I would rather have access to a dozen documented tournaments and choose which ones I want to watch on demand at a later time.

    On demand and on your time is not only the future of oddball competitive sporting events, it's the future of how people are spending their free time and entertainment in general.

    #50 1 year ago

    I think a few more things have to be done to make Pinball ready for network TV.
    1. Pinball coverage would need to be heavily edited to make it interesting. Commentary would be better if it wasn't live and was rehearsed to make it seem more polished. Also, screenshots of game history and general rules should be shown and gone over before each match as well as quick player profiles to make the viewer feel some kind of connection to the players.-also need some kind of standings/scorecard posted on the screen.
    2. Direct audio should be captured off the game and mixed in with the commentary to give people a feel for the game music and sounds. A flat top down video with no sound isn't a very fun way to watch pinball.
    3. multiple camera angles- You could use the top down for general play but switching to get a player prospective view or close-ups of the toys/features in action would make the game more interesting to bystanders.

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