(Topic ID: 173814)

Why doesn't Stern publish full, clear rule set info?


By UNCgump

3 years ago



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    #1 3 years ago

    Why doesn't Stern publish full, clear rule set info?

    It would be soooo useful, since games have only grown more complicated and the opacity of the rules makes many games less accessible to anyone other than an owner or obsessive player.

    #2 3 years ago

    always wondered the same thing

    #3 3 years ago

    personally i think half of the fun of playing games is to "figure things out".

    while i appreciate all the hard work that the community here has put into making rule sheets (Wizard of Oz, The Hobbit, Metallica, Star Trek, AC/DC, etc) i have only really glanced at them as i would still like there to be a surprise or two for me to find.

    #4 3 years ago
    Quoted from KingPinGames:

    personally i think half of the fun of playing games is to "figure things out".

    This.

    Also, they are too busy.

    Also, they still think of their market as operators, and this market would not be served by having these rules instantly available. Players would be paying less to explore and figure out the games on their own.

    #5 3 years ago

    I get the fun of figuring things out. But that's probably appealing to a minority of total players. I think a little clarity might be good to attract less devoted players. Those who like to explore don't have to read the rules.

    And how are they "too busy." It's a limited set of info that must already be clearly outlined somewhere for the sake of making the game.

    #6 3 years ago

    Also the rules frequently change with each update so they would get outdated.

    #7 3 years ago

    Because they take years to finish the code

    Why write a rule set if modes have yet to be written? (and may never be)

    #8 3 years ago

    I'm with the OP. Especially for competition sake, if I see a new machine, I can't just figure it out and expect to do well. Making the shots is tough enough.

    10
    #9 3 years ago

    for the same reason why when you buy the legend of Zelda the instruction manual isn't just a complete walkthrough of the entire game.

    #10 3 years ago

    Even they don't even know what they're coding. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    #11 3 years ago

    I'm sure they would if they could figure out a way to charge extra for them.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from KingPinGames:

    personally i think half of the fun of playing games is to "figure things out".

    while i appreciate all the hard work that the community here has put into making rule sheets (Wizard of Oz, The Hobbit, Metallica, Star Trek, AC/DC, etc) i have only really glanced at them as i would still like there to be a surprise or two for me to find.

    Maybe a better question would be "why don't Stern publish a general outline of the basic rules and game progression?". At least then new players would have a vague idea of how to get into the game rather than trying to decipher something like this:

    15f72f1d42aece88a4c4be34348f41d10d30e562[1] (resized).jpg

    #13 2 years ago

    Does ANYONE spell check at Stern?

    #14 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cornelius:

    Does ANYONE spell check at Stern?

    eye ce know issuz wid ther engrish

    #15 2 years ago

    hungy hungy snakes!

    #16 2 years ago

    Same reason Zelda doesn't come with a walk through. They give you the general rule set and it's up to you. That's one of my favorite parts of pinball. Figuring out what strategy works best. If you don't know, just search the forums. Plenty of people share theirs.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    Maybe a better question would be "why don't Stern publish a general outline of the basic rules and game progression?". At least then new players would have a vague idea of how to get into the game rather than trying to decipher something like this:

    Agreed! And while "instant info," live DMD animation, and the playfield do give a lot of info, it's missing a certain wholeness which could tie together a player's understanding and appreciation of a game. As far as updates with code, all that text could be embedded as reviewable on a DMD scroll.

    #18 2 years ago

    Perhaps outdated tradition (i.e. never did it before - why start now?).

    Given the complexity of modern Stern rulesets and scoring algorithms though, I think it's ludicrous to leave it up to players to figure rules out via trial and error or studying code update ReadMe docs.

    Games are MUCH more enjoyable when you fully understand what gameplay options you have and can make decisions accordingly.

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cornelius:

    Does ANYONE spell check at Stern?

    After the ghosting ... Warped playfields... Not aligned printing of playfields ... Wrong apron on games ... A misspelling of hungry is the least of their problems

    #20 2 years ago
    Quoted from UNCgump:

    Why doesn't Stern publish full, clear rule set info?
    It would be soooo useful, since games have only grown more complicated and the opacity of the rules makes many games less accessible to anyone other than an owner or obsessive player.

    For the same reason a book doesn't give away all its secrets on the inside cover.

    Games are meant to be explored and discovered.

    #21 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    For the same reason a book doesn't give away all its secrets on the inside cover.
    Games are meant to be explored and discovered.

    Disagree as a rule. For some yes. Others would like to know what the hell the rules are at the outset. Why not provide the info and give the customer the choice as to whether they wish to explore or not?

    #22 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    For the same reason a book doesn't give away all its secrets on the inside cover.
    Games are meant to be explored and discovered.

    I suppose that really depends on why and where you're playing. If you're playing a game you've purchased, then yeah, go ahead and explore, but I'm not dumping hundreds of dollars into a sited game just to try to figure out how the scoring works. And when it comes to tournaments, it's absolutely ridiculous that the rules are not readily available to all competitors.

    #23 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    And when it comes to tournaments, it's absolutely ridiculous that the rules are not readily available to all competitors.

    Yeah it would be nice but honestly with most games in a tournament setting, if you don't know the rules going in -- trying to memorize them in the middle of the tournament doesn't seem like it would do that great for most players vs those coming in that have played the games enough to know most of the rules.

    I like figuring them out personally, although I appreciate a hobbyist write up after I've played a game for a while to see what I'm not getting

    #24 2 years ago
    Quoted from Mbecker:

    Yeah it would be nice but honestly with most games in a tournament setting, if you don't know the rules going in -- trying to memorize them in the middle of the tournament doesn't seem like it would do that great for most players vs those coming in that have played the games enough to know most of the rules.

    I was thinking more in terms of the rules being available online. The onus should be on manufacturers to make their games accessible, not tournament directors.

    Quoted from SHOOTTHEPYRAMID:

    for the same reason why when you buy the legend of Zelda the instruction manual isn't just a complete walkthrough of the entire game.

    Zelda games are actually an interesting analogy; recent games have not come with instruction manuals, since all the instructions you need to play are contained in the game's dialogue. Older Zelda games did have instruction manuals; the ones for the games on NES were quite extensive, which made sense as these games had very little in-game direction. How does this translate to pinball? EMs and early SSs were like modern Zelda games with instructions written on playfields and instruction cards. The games themselves told the player what to do without needing a seperate written ruleset. Newer pinball machines are like the very first Zelda game with only very vague hints about what you need to do. Nintendo gave players an instruction manual to compensate; without it most players would have been completely lost, and that's exactly how I feel playing new Sterns.

    #25 2 years ago

    They released a very detailed strategy guide for GOT. Not sure about GB.

    #26 2 years ago

    They should have a QR code on the games rule card that links to a web page that has the most updated rules. Then if they update the code they could update the web page guide. Everyone has a cellphone these days, and it wouldn't cost much for stern. Just the time needed to create a web page for their games.

    #27 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    Maybe a better question would be "why don't Stern publish a general outline of the basic rules and game progression?". At least then new players would have a vague idea of how to get into the game rather than trying to decipher something like this:

    the scannable QR code is a great idea. there are so many possibilities I think stern could be using to draw in more players. i've gotta drive 2+ hours to play a new stern... if there were a rules sheet I could pull up on my mobile device that would help out a lot.

    #28 2 years ago

    Because they are lazy and do everything as cheaply as possible. Just a simple pathway to the modes and a progression chart like JJP does would make me happy.

    #29 2 years ago

    If anyone knows of a rule set for X-Men please point me in a direction

    #30 2 years ago
    Quoted from UNCgump:

    Why doesn't Stern publish full, clear rule set info?

    Stern is in business to sell pinball games. Period.

    My guess is that they have made a business decision that the potential increase in game sales from providing (and updating) detailed rules info is not worth the cost required.

    #31 2 years ago

    WOZ is the only bad example of this. The status screens give you full maps toward the goals. Want to melt the witch? Everything you need to do, including highlighting what you have already done, is right on the screen. And the. You notice the 4 quadrants of that map align with the emeralds that are always on the screen. The screen with the diamonds lists everything you need to earn for SOTR, and again, those align with the diamonds that are almost always on the main screen. The detail of all that amazes me.

    #32 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    Disagree as a rule. For some yes. Others would like to know what the hell the rules are at the outset. Why not provide the info and give the customer the choice as to whether they wish to explore or not?

    Same reason a clothed woman can be sexier than just appearing nude from the start

    The discovery process and knowledge rolling out vs being dumped at once extends the time the game is new and fresh... and in people's mind and conversation.

    You always get some start on the rules and you want the process to be intuitive. It's not like you show up completely blind

    It's not possible to have customer choice because once the info is out... it can't be taken back

    #33 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    It's not possible to have customer choice because once the info is out... it can't be taken back

    Seriously? You honestly think that this is a concern of Stern's and that's why they don't provide detailed rules info?

    #34 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    I suppose that really depends on why and where you're playing. If you're playing a game you've purchased, then yeah, go ahead and explore, but I'm not dumping hundreds of dollars into a sited game just to try to figure out how the scoring works.

    Yet.... that's exactly what the industry and operators want... you to keep coming back to find more and get further.

    If that's how you feel... just wait till others work it out for you.

    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    And when it comes to tournaments, it's absolutely ridiculous that the rules are not readily available to all competitors.

    You are aware that the biggest tournament for a long time (at expo) was ran on the new game for the year... which often people had never even seen before... let alone mastered. And that's what people looked forward too...

    Your knowledge of the game and your ability to map that into strategies is part of the player's skill set. You can study, learn your own, or be coached... but game knowledge is part of the competition as well. Besides, most players will share insights and with just about anyone as long as you are not in a match together at the moment

    #35 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    Seriously? You honestly think that this is a concern of Stern's and that's why they don't provide detailed rules info?

    No.. I'm jus tad dressing the comment of "just let people chose"... that's a fallacy... once it's out, it's out. You can't selectively release it.

    Even the designers themselves will be coy with answering questions if you just want to have it all dumped out for you... and you are friends! They want to see people learn and discover.

    #36 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    No.. I'm jus tad dressing the comment of "just let people chose"... that's a fallacy... once it's out, it's out. You can't selectively release it.
    Even the designers themselves will be coy with answering questions if you just want to have it all dumped out for you... and you are friends! They want to see people learn and discover.

    I don't share your concern. If you don't want the availability of detailed rules information to spoil the fun of exploring the game for you, THEN DON'T READ IT. It really is that simple.

    Applying your logic, my creating a detailed Mustang rules document and sharing it with the pinball community was a disservice to the pinball hobby as it ruined the joy of discovering the game's rules. I contend that the opposite is true as it allowed many players to understand and appreciate features in the game that they might not otherwise ever have become aware of due to their skill level, inability to get past their initial dislike of the theme, unavailability of Premium/LE models near them, etc. In my communications with John Trudeau when I was writing the Mustang rules doc, he never once expressed any concern regarding people not discovering the rules on their own. Rather, he seemed happy that people would now likely play and enjoy Mustang even more.

    Additionally, I've yet to see a single person complain when detailed rules information is available. In my case, 100% of the comments sent to me were expressing thanks for providing them.

    #37 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    I don't share your concern. If you don't want the availability of detailed rules information to spoil the fun of exploring the game for you, THEN DON'T READ IT. It really is that simple.
    Applying your logic, my creating a detailed Mustang rules document and sharing it with the pinball community was a disservice to the pinball hobby as it ruined the joy of discovering the game's rules.

    The difference is your scenario is a third party who has worked to figure it out and likely isn't 100% coverage, nor is it confirmed as fully accurate, nor does it happen immediately. What is asked here is stern themselves document and publish the full details THEMSELVES and when the product is new.

    You may not want to agree with it... but there is a reason the formula exists and has not gone away in over 30 years of gaming. To do so would devalue the game and its launch. When game makers started doing strategy guides, it was to monetize what was happening via third parties and they could not stop it... so instead they just used their access to one-up the guidemakers and take the money for themselves.

    Are you upset about gift wrap too?? I mean, why hide what the gift is.... wouldn't you be more willing to open it if you knew what it was??

    #38 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    . In my communications with John Trudeau when I was writing the Mustang rules doc, he never once expressed any concern regarding people not discovering the rules on their own. Rather, he seemed happy that people would now likely play and enjoy Mustang even more.

    So did you ask him why he didn't do it himself? Or simply dictate it all to someone to capture?

    Everyone knows the interest is there... they have the knowledge (as does every game maker).... yet they don't do what you are asking. Ever thought there is a reason why hundreds of people across decades... have all come to the same conclusion about the psyche of the players and buyers?

    #39 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    The difference is your scenario is a third party who has worked to figure it out and likely isn't 100% coverage, nor is it confirmed as fully accurate, nor does it happen immediately. What is asked here is stern themselves document and publish the full details THEMSELVES and when the product is new.
    You may not want to agree with it... but there is a reason the formula exists and has not gone away in over 30 years of gaming. To do so would devalue the game and its launch. When game makers started doing strategy guides, it was to monetize what was happening via third parties and they could not stop it... so instead they just used their access to one-up the guidemakers and take the money for themselves.
    Are you upset about gift wrap too?? I mean, why hide what the gift is.... wouldn't you be more willing to open it if you knew what it was??

    So did Stern providing rules/strategy info for GoT at its release devalue the game for players?

    I still think (and it's just my opinion) that it comes down to a money issue. If the effort required to provide detailed rules information resulted in a greater profit (i.e. resulted in selling enough additional games) for them, I think they would do it. As it is, Stern apparently doesn't see a value in typically doing so.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    So did you ask him why he didn't do it himself? Or simply dictate it all to someone to capture?
    Everyone knows the interest is there... they have the knowledge (as does every game maker).... yet they don't do what you are asking. Ever thought there is a reason why hundreds of people across decades... have all come to the same conclusion about the psyche of the players and buyers?

    I did not ask John Trudeau as it would have been beside the point of our communications. What I did ask him was if Stern had any additional Mustang rules information that they could provide me to supplement what my doc contained. He told me that regretfully, Stern can't share this info outside of their organization as it would be a conflict of interest for them and they had already maxed out their hours allotted for the game/code design. He also said that the Stern design teams spend many overtime hours, both at Stern and at home in order to create the best games that they can; each game is a labor of love for them.

    #40 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Same reason a clothed woman can be sexier than just appearing nude from the start

    If I'm out at my favorite pinball location and two women walk up to me, one clothed and the other naked... I'm more interested in the crazy one.

    #41 2 years ago
    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    So did Stern providing rules/strategy info for GoT at its release devalue the game for players?

    If you go back and look you'll find they didn't release a full rule sheet but a primer on how the houses worked and their benefits (likely because even they released the game was not intuitive and would have suffered greatly if no one could get it going..). They didn't do what the thread here is asking for... which is why there are over far more detailed and extended rule sheets for got... instead of RTFM

    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    I still think (and it's just my opinion) that it comes down to a money issue. If the effort required to provide detailed rules information resulted in a greater profit (i.e. resulted in selling enough additional games) for them, I think they would do it. As it is, Stern apparently doesn't see a value in typically doing so.

    And I'd point you to the decades of history that show it's not just stern coming to this conclusion. So it's not very believebale to think a dozen hours of writing by a trivial employ is the reason the vast majority of companies do not do it.

    Quoted from Tuna_Delight:

    He told me that regretfully, Stern can't share this info outside of their organization as it would be a conflict of interest for them and they had already maxed out their hours allotted for the game/code design. He also said that the Stern design teams spend many overtime hours, both at Stern and at home in order to create the best games that they can; each game is a labor of love for them.

    So he can't share it... not that stern can't. It's kind of hard to have a conflict of interest with... yourself stern. Sound to me like He was acknowledging the ip is sterns... not his.

    #42 2 years ago

    It does kinda remind me of the older video games we used to like to play (well actually I admit I still play them). Stuff like Doom, Quake, Duke Nukem along with the console games like Zelda, Goldeneye and such. None of these came with any walkthroughs in the manual, just a description of how the controls worked and some info on the characters. Before the Internet got big, typically not long after the game came out you could buy a book that was a complete guide. It would have maps, strategies, and everything you needed to complete the game.

    I did often get these books. But I hated using them. I only would go to it if I was completely stuck at a certain point and couldn't get out of it. Then I would peek so I could keep going, but I always felt like a wuss when I did this. But I knew lots of people who would just go through the book from the beginning to the end using it as a guide to get them through. I didn't like that, but they were happy. People are just different that's all, no big deal.

    These games often had various cheat codes and god modes. You could type in a code and get extra weapons, power, etc. I knew people that would enable god mode that gave them unlimited weapons and ammo along with invulnerability and they would just plow through the game that way. They were happy as clams. I never used those cheats myself, for me it just took all the fun out of it.

    For me pinball would be the same way. I'd like to try to figure it all out on my own. But if there were a nice rule set to look at if I got stuck, I'd like to have it. Of course now you have the Internet so you could just come to a place like this and ask and get your answer that way.

    #43 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Yet.... that's exactly what the industry and operators want... you to keep coming back to find more and get further.

    ...except that I don't. If I've played two or three games and still have no idea what I'm doing, then I won't keep putting more and more money in. I'll go and play a self-explanatory Williams, Gottlieb or JJP.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Your knowledge of the game and your ability to map that into strategies is part of the player's skill set. You can study, learn your own, or be coached... but game knowledge is part of the competition as well.

    The key words were "readily available". There's a massive difference between a player failing to learn the rules and the rules not being available for a player to learn. I can't think of a single sport where players have no choice but to learn how the scoring system works by trial and error.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    there is a reason the formula exists and has not gone away in over 30 years of gaming.

    Stern's current formula did not exist even 15 years ago. With few exceptions, pinball machines used to have instructions written on the playfield, inserts that clearly depicted game progression and instruction cards with useful information. The game itself told you what to do. Stern have gotten rid of all of that and have not replaced it with anything.

    #44 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    ...except that I don't. If I've played two or three games and still have no idea what I'm doing, then I won't keep putting more and more money in. I'll go and play a self-explanatory Williams, Gottlieb or JJP.

    Bye Felicia!

    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    The key words were "readily available". There's a massive difference between a player failing to learn the rules and the rules not being available for a player to learn. I can't think of a single sport where players have no choice but to learn how the scoring system works by trial and error.

    Except when you play against another team... they don't write down for you how they plan on competing.. they only must stay within the constructs of the rules of the game. Everyone plays within common rules, but each can develop their own strategies and advantages. Just like pinball.

    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    Stern's current formula did not exist even 15 years ago. With few exceptions, pinball machines used to have instructions written on the playfield, inserts that clearly depicted game progression and instruction cards with useful information. The game itself told you what to do. Stern have gotten rid of all of that and have not replaced it with anything.

    So is your complaint you want better rule cards (as if those were ever very good).. or you want rulesheets published? Because you act like this is a new stern problem... yet we all know we needed rulesheets for pretty much all Solid State and newer games. This only being a Stern problem is laughable. STTNG's rule cards didn't tell you wtf the artifacts are for.. or what the various modes did or scored. Nor does my Flash Gordon tell you really how to qualify the playfield multipliers, or explain the two bonuses well.

    Yes games have gotten more complex... but we also have speech, DMDs, color changing inserts, and all kinds of feedback steering you.

    The need for rulesheets isn't a new problem (its why we started making them in the 90s!) and the reasons why the company doesn't dump out everything they know about the game in advance to players is for the same still. Don't try to rewrite history here.

    #45 2 years ago
    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Except when you play against another team... they don't write down for you how they plan on competing

    No, but if I was playing in the World Cup I could easily find out the rules of soccer from FIFA (that's soccer- not just 'football', which, much like pinball, has dozens of different varieties, each with their own rules and scoring systems). This is the point here- not strategies, not tactics, but the basic rules and objectives of the game.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    So is your complaint you want better rule cards (as if those were ever very good).. or you want rulesheets published?

    I want an explanation of what the main point-scoring opportunities are and a basic outline of game progression. Right now Stern gives us nothing. Unlabelled (or vaguely labelled) inserts, DMD instructions that only appear AFTER the ball has been kicked out of the mode start hole, completely useless instruction cards that might as well have been written by a room full of monkeys...yes, I'm aware that past manufacturers didn't tell us every single rule, but there was enough information there to formulate a competitive strategy, and once you had that down you could explore the other features of the game. If more complex code means that traditional explanations (inserts, written instructions on playfield, instructions on DMD, instruction cards etc) are now insufficient, then maybe Stern do need to start publishing full rulesheets. Incidentally, I'm happy with the way JJP use the LCD screen to show how WOZ works. Maybe an LCD screen is what Stern need- as long as they actually use it to explain the game.

    #46 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    ... completely useless instruction cards that might as well have been written by a room full of monkeys...

    #47 2 years ago

    I get my lowdown on new games from Pinball News. Does it bother that Stern don't do it ? Nope, Martin does a better job than Stern ever would.

    #48 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    ...except that I don't. If I've played two or three games and still have no idea what I'm doing, then I won't keep putting more and more money in. I'll go and play a self-explanatory Williams, Gottlieb or JJP.

    The key words were "readily available". There's a massive difference between a player failing to learn the rules and the rules not being available for a player to learn. I can't think of a single sport where players have no choice but to learn how the scoring system works by trial and error.

    Stern's current formula did not exist even 15 years ago. With few exceptions, pinball machines used to have instructions written on the playfield, inserts that clearly depicted game progression and instruction cards with useful information. The game itself told you what to do. Stern have gotten rid of all of that and have not replaced it with anything.

    Amen.

    #49 2 years ago

    isn't the number one goal of these things to make money for operators? If they published the rules wouldn't this make it easier for players and thus decrease coinage in the cashbox? Not that many casual players would bother but if there were more players like us (collectors with deep knowledge of the rules) it could decrease the take?

    Plus it costs time and money to do that (and the ROI is nill).

    #50 2 years ago
    Quoted from Circus_Animal:

    The key words were "readily available". There's a massive difference between a player failing to learn the rules and the rules not being available for a player to learn. I can't think of a single sport where players have no choice but to learn how the scoring system works by trial and error.

    I'm with Flynnibus on this one, the instruction card is there to get you started, as it always has. Then you explore the game, take time and enjoy figuring out how things work, what scores big, what things you can or can't stack together.
    It's all part of the enjoyment I get when I play a new machine, all part of the fun.
    This is not the responsibility of stern to put together, really. There are plenty of guides, tutorial videos, and strategy threads here about games, the information is there if you want it.
    Or play with friends, chat at tournaments, and get the info.
    If Stern put out a full "guide" to scoring and rules, I would have to read it to be competitive at tourneys,because everyone else would. But it would ruin part of what I enjoy about new titles.
    It would also take away the opportunity for me to figure out something that others haven't, those little things that can help keep tournament play fun, trying to get the unknown advantage.
    The instruction card as it is and has been, is just fine.

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    Playfield - Decals
    Metal-Mods
    $ 44.00
    Cabinet - Other
    Pinball Forever
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